[Book Spoilers] EP104 Discussion

[VikingLegion]

Who's to say the Sandor/Sansa scene doesn't still go down? Sandor has no way of knowing Littlefinger told her his history, so when he "reveals" to Sansa, she will have to play dumb or risk angering him further. Yeah it's a little less powerful with her already knowing it and therefore not being shocked, but I still think that scene can be pulled off effectively if they go that route. Let's not get too anxious over it, we don't know what the big picture is.

Like Gandalf said, "Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

Amazing scene at the end to apprehend Tyrion. I just kept rewinding, I think I watched it 4 times back to back, and still got chills as Cat was calling on those bannerman. I came on here with the intent to discuss a minor quibble I had with the episode, but it was so awesome overall I can't even remember what I wanted to bitch about.

[Mack Kilimaro]

Posted our recap, analysis, and highlights of the changes and new scenes at Westeros.org.

John Bradley was brilliant. Owen Teale as Thorne was great. This was a fun episode.

Ran, the link to the John Bradley interview alluded to in the analysis is 404'd. I'd love to hear what he had to say! Samwell's appearance was perhaps my favorite part of the episode. (EDIT: Bryan Cogman interview link is also 404'd.)

I think this may have been the best episode yet. I'd given up that we were going to get any of Bran's dreaming after we never saw the Three-Eyed Crow before he woke up, so opening the episode with that couldn't have been better. Sam arriving at the Wall and Jon forming his little crew were nicely done. I like that they gave Pyp and Grenn a little of their usual bickering so that maybe those characters will stand out to the non-reader.

It was a bit of a bummer that the tourney got such short shrift, but it's understandable why if only for budgetary reasons. I wonder if we'll get the part where the winners are shown? If memory serves, after Ser Hugh's death the King postpones the rest until the next day.

Interesting that they added a random Jory/Jaime scene. I guess that's there to give some more weight to Jaime killing Jory in the next episode. At least, it looked like that fight was in the preview. I really wonder how the Jaime comes across to someone who's not familiar with the books. As I've mentioned in thoughts on the past episodes, it seems like they are giving his sympathy moments before you're primed to give him credit for having changed. Show Jaime gives us a glimpse into the mind we only see in the third or fourth book when Jaime thinks to himself that he set out to be Ser Arthur Dayne but he became the Smiling Knight instead.

Random amusing little moment: when Ned says he's giving twenty of his own household guard to the gold cloaks, the camera shows Varys making this priceless face, as if he's thinking, "I can't believe anyone is this fucking dumb."

[Tyrion Lannister]

Really enjoyed it once again. I had no objection to Ghost making a sound, because I'm not sure if his silence would have worked quite as well on the screen. I also had no problem with Littlefinger telling Sansa what happened to Sandor. Assuming they're going to keep the Sandor/Gregor confrontation (and why wouldn't they?), I think that bit of backstory will be a plus for non-book readers. Of course, I'm not a huge Sandor fan either. I don't hate him or love him; I just don't have strong feelings one way or the other. If I liked The Hound as much as some others do, maybe I'd feel differently about that dialogue being given to Littlefinger.

Also, not a complaint, and not something that makes a bit of difference in the overall scheme of things, but just an observation: do you think viewers who haven't read the books remember/know that Rickon exists at this point?

[bleecake]

I think everyone is getting ahead of themselves with Sandor. Although Benioff and Weiss don't spoil changes often they have stated that they are excited with what has been done with Sandor. For all we know. next episode he DOES tell her the story and Sansa is terrified that he is going to hurt her. I really think that this is a watch and find out, and think we may be surprised that the Sandor arc remains very much alive and well.

I don't know. Some people who seem to know appear to be saying that SanSan has been axed completely. There is still hope that it has been pushed back and not cut, of course. *fingers crossed* If they do cut or too heavily truncate the SanSan, I will be really disappointed. The viewing audience will be robbed of one of the most powerful and interesting threads of the series.

[Lord Godric]

Absolutely the best episode so far. Again loved the dialogue taken straight from the book, and finally we are seeing some of the plotting and scheming of King's Landing.

My favorite parts:

-The first, where the episode gets its namesake, Tyrion's cripples, bastards and broken things line.

-The scene at the Inn at the Crossroads was very well done.

-Also, I was surprised that I quite liked Dany when she stood up to Viserys.

-Loved Gendry.

-Arya's scene with Ned was absolutely great, but I was waiting for the "That's Sansa" line.

-Although Sam was a little pathetic at times, the scene with him and Jon scrubbing the tables was hilarious.

-GHOST! Finally a nice shot of him.

A few things I am a little torn about:

-They seem to be making Jaime a little sympathetic already. I don't mind since he will eventually grow into that character, but just seems odd to have it so early.

-Why do Joffrey and Sansa hate each other still? The Tourney was when Sansa was so excited to be with her prince, but her they hate each other. I'm hoping they make Sansa fall back in love with him because it is crucial to her character that she was obsessed with being a princess and Joffrey.

[C.T. Phipps]

-Why do Joffrey and Sansa hate each other still? The Tourney was when Sansa was so excited to be with her prince, but her they hate each other. I'm hoping they make Sansa fall back in love with him because it is crucial to her character that she was obsessed with being a princess and Joffrey.

That's probably not going to happen in the series since there's only six episodes left in the series.

[Lord Godric]

That's probably not going to happen in the series since there's only six episodes left in the series.

I think if they don't choose to do this (I'm hoping it happens at the feast after the tourney) then the scene where Sansa is pleading with Joffrey to show mercy for Ned wont work at all. And Joffrey's promise and then betrayal wont be nearly as shocking.

[Keltess]

Only have one comment about this episode. ( I have enjoyed the series so far overall) Why is it Littlefinger who reveals to Sansa the history between the Clegane brothers ? This throws a monkey wrench in the plot as far as how Sansa's Character will develop. Why or how would Littlefinger even know? Seems like it was a dirty little family secret to me, and that it was the Hound relating it to Sansa in her room in private that made for a sick intimacy. A try at it anyway.

[Leofric]

Plus, GRRM recently included Dragonslayer in his list of greatest fantasy films of all time. He even mentioned Vermithrax Pejorative as the best dragon name ever.

I also hope it's a nod that the dragons in GOT will look like Vermithrax, my favorite dragon on film.

[Trebla]

Upon a 2nd viewing:

Very much liked Summer growling at Theon. Nice foreshadowing as well as just bursting with backstory. Just about every scene had someone talking about the past yet the episode wasn't bogged down with it. In the Theon/Tyrion scene, I liked the mention of the Greyjoy uncles burning the Lannister fleet. Later on, Doreah mentions a pirate covered in gold and had dyed sails. That made me think of Euron. Doreah also mentions dragonglass, Asshai, and the all-important Faceless Men. A couple of the other dragon names were certainly familiar: Ghiscar and Velaryon. The others besides Meraxes, Vhagar, and Balerion I'm not sure about: ah-kah-nay and eh-soo-vee-es?

My dad pointed out every time Grenn talks, spittle flies from his mouth. Tis true!

Another bit of possible foreshadowing was Dany reproachfully saying to Mormont, "You sold slaves". Woe to you, O' Slaver's Bay.

Perhaps my favorie scene was the Jory/Jaime scene. More backstory and more foreshadowing. They mention Thoros of Myr and his flaming sword and Jory declares, "I'll remember that until the day I die." Oh curse you, Kingslayer. But it was an excellent scene for Jaime. He went from arrogant to amiable and back again. He's having sex with own sister yet he gets offended that Robert bangs multiple whores while he stands guard. He coldly tells Jory he doesn't serve Lord Stark, yet he seems to feel bad for acting like that as Jory walks way. A complicated man.

I liked seeing where everyone sat at the joust. And I made note of Lancel and his amazing hat in the stands behind Joffrey. :P

The final scene introduced Bronn who was the man who offers to let Tyrion take his room. Sell-sword indeed. And interestingly enough, I'm not sure that he was one of the men who rose for Lady Catelyn. Maybe we couldn't see him from the angle of the last shot but it doesn't look like he rose.

[Ser Greguh]

-Why do Joffrey and Sansa hate each other still? The Tourney was when Sansa was so excited to be with her prince, but her they hate each other. I'm hoping they make Sansa fall back in love with him because it is crucial to her character that she was obsessed with being a princess and Joffrey.

The vibe I got was that Sansa is still quite smitten with Joffrey, as she needs to be; she's just worried that Joffrey doesn't like her. (Which he, you know, doesn't). The scene between her and Septa Mordane in the throne room (her worrying about whether she will give him a son or not) certainly makes it seem that way. My guess is there will be another scene between Cersei and Joffrey where she flat out bullies him into being nice to her, once she realizes that she's a potential ally.

[damian]

they CAN"T let Petyr tell her this story.

this is the first decision they've made that I REALLY dislike

ditto

[damian]

Ok that last scene was just freaking amazing. What a great episode. EAsily the best one for me. Easily.

ditto again, except for having littlefinger tell sansa about the hound's past. that was terrible :(

[tripleneck]

Things I liked tonight. The look on Arya's face when Ser Hugh died (especially contrasted with Sansa's horror). They are really setting her up to be a little badass. Also great to meet Bronn for the first time at the inn. I instantly got that he was on the make and "for hire." Loved seeing Ghost more grown up. Very scary.

Ned's naivete is really coming to the fore. The geneology tome was laying there on the table with the assassin's knife on top when Cersei came calling. You know she saw them! Non-readers are really going to be shocked when Ned is executed.

[Ser Greguh]

Ned's naivete is really coming to the fore. The geneology tome was laying there on the table with the assassin's knife on top when Cersei came calling. You know she saw them! Non-readers are really going to be shocked when Ned is executed.

Those busy capturing stills (and you know they're out there) can likely confirm this but I'm like 90% sure it was open to the Baratheon page, too. Stupid stupid Ned! "Let them watch!" he says. What's the worst that could happen?

[rigochu]

"The episode started off with good and kept a good pace untilthe Viserys-in-the-bathtub scene. I loved all the detail and history during that scene but I fear it went a bit long and I cringed when the topic of dragons was brought up again. Martin was much more subtle in the book when it came to dragons."

I agree with this sentiment. I also disliked the the "Viserys-in-the-bathtub scene" i feel the time could have been put to better use in another scene especially since the biggest problem with this series is that everything feels so rushed and confusing for those who havn't read the book. Also, does anyone else feel like king Robert is such a drunken whore-mongering pig in the show that one can almost sympathize with Cersei and Jaime (almost :P)! It's like why is Ned even putting himself and his family in danger for this guy? Further dislikes for this episode: the measely amount of ppl at the tournament (cgi crowd maybe?), and also the fact that Ser Hugh's death is Littlefinger's cue to break into the hound's story? I mean Sansa probably just saw her first killing.. The timing of certain things seems wrong in this series, like they merge certain scenes b/c of time constraints, but then they add silly extra scenes like Viserys' bathtub scene.

My last issue would be with all the expository dialogue in this show..

"What is my name?"

"Jon Snow"

"Why is my name Jon Snow?"

"Because you are a bastard from the north"

[Rockroi]

I liked this episode, but it was definitely not as impressive as the others. Most of this was because this was a re-education episode: this is the History of Westeroes and how it effects these people. while I appreciated it all, it was not as interactive as it could have been. I felt like I was watching "Previously, on Game of Thrones"; I had seen the vast majority of this before on this very series: Viserys is crazy, Arya is a girl who is not a girl; Sansa is hurt and moving with great trepidation (in other words, she's the Only Stark who acts this way); etc.

However, please do not mistake me, this was a really really good episode that I enjoyed. Here is what I liked:

The Recreation of Sandor Clegane: People have to accept something and they have to accept it right now: this is a different Sandor Clegane than the one in the books. The books Clegane was an oft-drunk, brash, angry, bitter man who was all about inflicting his anger and bitterness on others, especially the diluted (ie: young people). The show Clegane is not that person. In the second episode, I mentioned how Clegane does not laugh when he announces to Ned that he caught (and killed) the Butcher's boy. He is far more somber than the book's Clegane. In the book, Clegane laughs and almost brags how this boy is dead. But in the show, an almost vacant-eyed Sandor simply says that the boy ran. Not very fast. And that's it. He's a far more internal, far more internalized character. In this universe, Sandor Clegane would NEVER tell Sansa Stark what happened to him- just as he would never tell ANYONE about that weakness.

Instead, a bragging, swaggering Petryr Balish revels in the fact that he can tell-tales out of school about Sandor Clegane. And why not? He wants to impress Sansa- Something Sandor Clegane has NEVER wanted to do. In this instance, that scene worked VERY WELL. In no way would this show-Sandor tell Sansa anything like this. Show Clegane is far too guarded, far too walled up, far too sequestered in his personality. To me, THAT SCENE was not about giving Sandor's lines to Petyr: it was about flushing out two characters by showing what one will say about others (Petryr) and what one will never say about himself (Sandor). Its time people realized that the book Sandor is not the same person as show-Sandor. Get used to it,

Sansa Stark: Real Human Being: I continue to enjoy Sansa Stark's problems with being liked and feeling real pressure from a society that expects something from woemn that women have no control over: their fertility and what sex their children are. That scene had Sansa start as the teacher with Septa Mordane and then turn oh so deliciously to the Septa as the student, Sansa snapping questions at her. I liked the duality of that interaction, just as I like how Sansa seems to be the only Stark who realizes how difficult this world is. She- and she alone -seems to understand how her roll is to play out and how very hard that would be on a 11-to-15 year old. I think this actress is bringing an opt-forgotten dimension to Sansa: she's a real person who worries the way a real person should.

Ned Stark: Father to Us All: I am continually pleased with how Ned is being portrayed as a concerned yet slightly ineffectual father and how that relationship is played out with Arya, the obvious reminder to Ned of Lyanna. I really like how warm he is with Arya and how Arya is- like any child- almost dismissive of her parent's wishes. Its a classic reminder that parents and their children have a different attitude towards parental dotting and in the demands of the children's own future.

The Foundations of Theon Grayjoy: We got a really, really strong impression of what is up with Theon. I think its a very strong gateway to that character.

The Consistency of Jaime Lannister: Jaime's scene was easy to forget, but masterful. Here is Jaime, reminding some underling of the slings and arrows of petty misfortune he must undergo with Robert the Fat. He fucks women 6 at a time, all the while, his wife's brother guards his room. Jaime talks to Jory... and gets that look again. In the prior episode, Jaime looked right past Robert when he described Aerys etc. Same thing here: Jaime Lannister has no idea and absolutely no care at all who Jory is. Jory is nobody to Jaime and Jaime does not care about him or anything Jory ever was. When Jory reminds Jaime that they fought together, then- and only then -did Jaime perk up, remembering Balon's rebellion etc. Much like the previous episode when talking to Selmy: the only time the human-being of Jaime comes up is when he is talking about battle. And then? Nothing. Jaime needs nothing from this person, whomever he was.

And which leaves a great, unasked question: Robert humiliates Jaime at every turn. And yet, Jaime is as respectful and passive as a devout church-mouse. Therefore, what the FUCK must have Aerys done to make Jaime want to kill him?

Ser Allister Thorne: No Longer a Convenient Story Device: I liked that Thorne has a method to his madness: in order to hold the line in the coldest part of the realm, you need harsh men. Sam? Sam is a liability in Thorn's eyes. And we have seen what Thorne's eyes have seen, and we can know why he despises such weakness: because the Wall cannot survive if its tolerated.

Bonus: I liked that Sam Tarly thinks celibacy is a waste. Well... yeah!

Take-it-or-leave it.

The Hand's Tournament: Plenty of good seats still available: Would it have killed then to have CGI'd a few people, because it looks like the tournament of the Hand was held in Springfield, Massachusetts.

Ghost Speaks: Horray! We saw Ghost.... Boooo we heard Ghost.

Overall Pace: I thought this episode dragged the most. We saw a diverse set of scenes, but I thought this episode could have had more put into it.

Cercei Comes Calling: Not sure what this scene was supposed to do except give the actress playing Cersei needed screen time. She wants to put the affair with the wolves behind them? But I thought he wolves were not meaningful? Why does she care what Ned thinks? Is she afraid he really will find something? I thought this scene was disjointed. At the same time, where are they taking the softer Cersei? Its interesting, I give them that,

I Can't Believe I'm Saying This... BUT: Did this episode need more Joff? Charming Joff to try to win over Sansa? Wouldn'ty that have helped things? Why is Joff not the brash bastard we all come to know and hate, but a sulking mamma's boy? Is this what we want?

Cannibalism? Really?: Thorne's a cannibal now, too? Meh...

What I Did Not Like:

Hey, Doesn't the King Have Two Brothers?: The complete and total lack of even MENTIONING Stannis is poor. Just like with Renly, Stannis has a HUGE roll to play in the series. Its a good idea that they start laying the foundation of that character ASAP. Instead, they haven't mentioned Stannis. Here, the scene at the Blacksmith was a perfect opportunity to mention that Jon Arryn came there with Stannis and Stannis was really focused on Gendry. And with good reason. I'm finding the ignoring of Stannis to be something that could be done much better.

I thought this was a really strong episode, but not as good as the others.

[damian]

-They seem to be making Jaime a little sympathetic already. I don't mind since he will eventually grow into that character, but just seems odd to have it so early.

i think it's necessary to plant a few sympathetic seeds early on in this medium. on tv you don't have the benefit of suddenly being thrust inside his head and getting to know him that way. when you think about it, he's just a giant dick in book 1, barely makes an appearance in book 2, and then we are suddenly thrust inside his head in book 3.

[JaimeNotJamie]

Anyone else think they're making Jaime a tad more sympathetic early on here because he won't have a "POV" so to speak like he does in the books later? Part of what helps make Jaime a character who people come to root for is that you see events through his eyes and understand his thought process. That may be more difficult to convey on screen, so they need to plant seeds a bit earlier so the audience isn't entirely predisposed to hate him.

[Lord Godric]

i think it's necessary to plant a few sympathetic seeds early on in this medium. on tv you don't have the benefit of suddenly being thrust inside his head and getting to know him that way. when you think about it, he's just a giant dick in book 1, barely makes an appearance in book 2, and then we are suddenly thrust inside his head in book 3.

I agree. And I also notice that they brought to life scenes that we never saw in GoT but only see when Jaime is reflecting on what happened during that time frame. Like the "war for Cersei's cunt" scene and the "Burn Them All" bit.