[Book Spoilers] EP104 Discussion

[craster's whore]

barring the changes from the book it was another strong episode.

is it me or did Sansa seem to age from the last episode.

[emmank]

I am surprised there isn't more of an outcry from the Hound-fan corner. Where is the ANGER in the Hound? He's a mean dude, not just disillusioned and apathetic. Sansa's supposed to be afraid of the anger she sees in him.... "she had never seen eyes so full of anger." Where is the dynamism of Sandor? This is a flat character! (I might add, I don't believe for a second it's the actor's fault, especially since GRRM said he was so awesome in his audition.) Where are they going to take his arc in season 2?

Also, the burn explanation scene from the books was a great way to introduce other facets of Sansa, too. Their whole interactive relationship is based, not solely, but at least partly on empathy. The foundation of that is sort of --- not there now.

Color me not pleased on this front. I hope that there is some sort of added scene or scenes later that can salvage this interpretation of Sandor for me.

___

All of the Wall stuff was 100% brilliant. I loved Sam.

[Leofric]

I think one of the reasons they had Petyr spill the story of Sandor's burns was to make the non-reader audience understand that there is more going on in the confrontation between the Gregor and Sandor in the next episode. Sandor isn't stepping in to save Loras, but rather make sure Gregor doesn't go too far in front of the King and get himself executed before Sandor has a chance to kill him.

[Spaßvogel]

Even though it was exposition-heavy, I still don't find myself able to criticize the filmmakers too much. They had to dump it *somewhere* you know. So far, they've been pretty good about keeping the backstory well integrated, but there's a breaking point where if this exposition dump doesn't get done now, then the non-book viewers will be more and more lost. The plot still moved enough, with Ned following the clues to JA's death, the Mountain removing Hugh, Tyrion dropping off the saddle design and heading to the inn where Cat is.

I'm happy that the non-readers will be a little more oriented on the history.

[moonjump05]

I am surprised there isn't more of an outcry from the Hound-fan corner. Where is the ANGER in the Hound? He's a mean dude, not just disillusioned and apathetic. Sansa's supposed to be afraid of the anger she sees in him.... "she had never seen eyes so full of anger." Where is the dynamism of Sandor? This is a flat character! (I might add, I don't believe for a second it's the actor's fault, especially since GRRM said he was so awesome in his audition.) Where are they going to take his arc in season 2?

Also, the burn explanation scene from the books was a great way to introduce other facets of Sansa, too. Their whole interactive relationship is based, not solely, but at least partly on empathy. The foundation of that is sort of --- not there now.

Color me not pleased on this front. I hope that there is some sort of added scene or scenes later that can salvage this interpretation of Sandor for me.

___

All of the Wall stuff was 100% brilliant. I loved Sam.

Oh there is plenty of outcry it seems to me, and for good reason as a great deal of potential characterization was lost for the Hound and Sansa(in the scene that actually got the actor his part!) It didn't have to be word for word from the book, but having the backstory come out of LF's mouth was a bad decision, IMHO, even if modifications to Sandor and Sansa's characters required changes.

Like to know where the show is taking this.

[DuckEverlasting]

Loved this episode, but to be fair, I've been loving them all. I'm rereading the book at the pace of the show, and it's really cool to see just how much of the script is ripped directly from the books. (Not just dialogue. The most nitpicky thing I noticed: When Jon goes to speak up for Sam the first time, Pyp grabs his arm and holds him back. Just like in the book. Cool.)

More surprising is how much I'm loving some of these scenes they've invented for the sake of the show. Tyrion antagonizing Theon, Viserys using dragon names on Doreah to get himself laid, Jory almost-but-not-quite forming a bond with Jaime... they all feel like something GRRM would have written, and they're all scenes between people who don't really interact much in the books (unless you count Jaime stabbing Jory).

The scene between Jaime and Jory might actually have been my favorite of the episode, actually. You can tell from a few lines that while Jory isn't really a fan of Lannisters, he respects Jaime, and is almost intimidated by him. It's going to hit a lot harder now when they fight, and I'm probably going to miss TV Jory a lot more than I did Book Jory. Kudos to Jamie Sives. I'm definitely with the people wishing his character stuck around for longer.

[Eponine]

Need more tourney! One of the reasons I like book Sansa is that we have a common interest in the details of the houses and the members of the court. The best part of the show for me is just seeing all the characters.

Still have the complaint, why do so many of the non-book scenes contain never ending soliloquies? They stick out in a bad way to me in contrast to the snappy dialogue between multiple characters.

Liked Littlefinger more this episode, but didn't think he came across as unnaturally interested in Sansa because he takes the same faux confidential tone with Ned.

Really glad to have more Ned action - it came off as much more organic than a lot of the other scenes because not much exposition is needed since it's already well established what kind of character Ned is. The council scenes are my favorite in the book and I can't have too much of them.

What I can have is too much Dany. I've gone from being neutral toward her story to really disliking her and almost every scene that she's in. I can't suspend disbelief for her and her awful wig.

TV Sam was much more likable than book Sam and I think that's a good thing. It was hard for me to picture book Sam except as a blob of pure annoying. Still don't like Jon but thought making Thorne less dumb bad guy was a good change. One thing I dislike about book Jon is that he's given such a stupid one dimensional enemy with no redeeming qualities, where most other characters have complex conflicts with other developed characters. Showing Jon to be actually rather inexperienced and naive instead someone who's always wise and saving the day may make him better.

Eta: a bit concerned about pacing. I know it took time to establish characters, but feels that almost nothing has happened yet compared to the amount of material still left, and while the book can get denser and accelerate the action, packing it into a tv show isn't the same. The main Dany event is yet to come. There's a big part of the tourney. There's the entire tyrion story - including a huge amount of time and action at the Eyrie. The whole deal with Robert... I have a hard time envisioning how there will be time for all that without getting very rushed.

[Ser Farbod]

Loved this episode. Easily the best so far... A few thoughts:

- Jon Snow gets better and better. I cannot understand why some of you guys dont like him. Hes emotional, brooding, angst filled, all just like the books. Perfect job so far.

- That being said, Tyrion, Arya, and Ned are spot on as well. I cant imagine them being played any better.

- Like many of you, I dont understand the casting of Renly. Nothing at all as I pictured him. What were they thinking?

- I dont really mind Littlefinger telling Sansa the story about the Hound. Its a quicker introduction to both the Hound and the Mountain that rides and I think there will be enough for the Hound to do later to make up for it.

- The scene between Tyrion and Theon was amazing. It wasnt in the books but it really felt like it was. So perfect to both characters and really filled a gap and explained who Theon is. Absolutely loved it.

- Everyone seems to love Jorah but me :( He looks perfect yes, but his acting is flat so far. Hes very one note to me and I find myself getting bored in his scenes. Hope it improves.

- Cersei and Jaime are ok. Not as good as some characters but not bad at all... I guess Cersei could be a bit better looking and Jaimie a bit more charming, but oh well, I wont complain.

- While Cat's look is nothing like I imagined (much older than what I had in my head) her acting is terrific...

[Daenerys]

i can't help but think this series needs 12 episodes instead of 10 to even the pacing some.

Ya. Or Alternatively 9-10 episodes that are 75-90 minutes long. I've never seen another hour long show (without commercials even!) that seems to go by so darn fast.

[Eponine]

- Jon Snow gets better and better. I cannot understand why some of you guys dont like him. Hes emotional, brooding, angst filled, all just like the books. Perfect job so far.

Being emotional, brooding and angst filled perfectly explains why I don't like Jon.

[smegma]

Really liked the episode, yet again. Think this was Jon's best episode by a long shot. Sam was perfect, very much like I imagined but better. I liked their scenes together.

My daughter instantly fell in love with Ghost. Doesn't bother me that he's not silent. I had almost forgotten about that.

I liked the touch of having Viserys saying "ouch" when the wax hits him, in contrast to Dany who revels in her scalding hot bath.

I also loved having an additional scene with Viserys, since we don't have much left of him. I liked how he went from smooth operator to unhinged and back and forth. A few too many dragon names, but overall liked it a lot.

I totally forgot that the tourney gets cut short and resumes the next day. I was like, wait...what?! Took me a second or two to recall that. I breathed a sigh of relief.

The Hound is one of my favorite characters, but I don't mind Littlefinger giving the exposition - it sets up the subsequent scenes with the brothers nicely. There will probably be other things later on to give The Hound and Sansa more time. I also think they need to give Littlefinger more to do, since he is a larger player in the series than the Hound.

Jory is my favorite inconsequential character, and the actor is doing a great job. Loved the scene with NCW.

Gendry did great, and I was pleased with that scene.

Hodor! Aww. Liked the way the dream sequence started the episode. It was short but set it up nicely.

I knew Theon would get a great deal of exposition this week. Not only has his name been mentioned, but why he's there and who his father is - and I loved Jaime's quip about him not being a good lad. Great development for him.

[Still not king]

I am surprised there isn't more of an outcry from the Hound-fan corner. Where is the ANGER in the Hound? He's a mean dude, not just disillusioned and apathetic. Sansa's supposed to be afraid of the anger she sees in him.... "she had never seen eyes so full of anger." Where is the dynamism of Sandor? This is a flat character! (I might add, I don't believe for a second it's the actor's fault, especially since GRRM said he was so awesome in his audition.)

Right now I'm clinging to hope. :( I wasn't expecting this...clinically depressed labrador. And no, it's not the actor's fault - I love McCann and had high hopes, still do though... We're not even halfway through season 1. I realise it's not the book-Hound we're getting, but it's the Hound from the books I wanted (can't see what's so unreasonable about that)...and if that makes me a bad fan who should just go hide under a rock then so be it. I love the rest of the series, but he is my favourite so I'll whine as much as I bloody well like. The rest of the tournament we'll see next week, still haven't given up hope.

I adore Maisie as Arya, and I've grown very fond of the rest of the cast as well. Not trying to be a stick in the mud.

[Ran]

Corrected the links to the Bryan Cogman and John Bradley interviews in our episode guide, for those wondering.

I think I note that they had intended to film the feast sequence, and I can't help but think that something happened and they had to find some way to preserve some of the information from there. We may have lost out on a drunken Robert roaring about how he'd take part in the joust (yes, the joust on the show, the melee only barely gets mentioned -- think they may have felt that they'd need to explain what the word means...), and of course they may have intended to follow the Sandor and Sansa scene as written in the novels and simply couldn't find any other way to shoe-horn the Hound's history into the story than to give it to Littlefinger.

[lokisnow]

an amazing episode.

I had one quibble and no one else noticed it.

We never see Ghost in the scene with Rast, it's just a close up (the right angle, mind you) of Ghost Growling, coupled with Rast looking up at where Ghost should be (if the wolf were, in fact there) in utter terror. So yeah, to me that felt a really sloppy edit, the lighting matched and the eyelines and scale matched, but the lack of a wider shot of Ghost intimidating Rast really bugged me. So yay for the magic of editing, it did its job and no one questioned that scene! :)

[Chirios]

Doesn't matter how many times I read it, doesn't matter how many times I see it, Catelyn Stark is still a bloody moron.

This is the episode where it all goes FUBAR. Thanks alot Catelyn.

[legba11]

They had to put a lot of exposition in this one, and for those who are worried about lack of actions, think of what's coming.

Next episode will (likely) have the Loras/Cleganes in the joust, the fights with the hill tribes on the way to the Eirye and the Lannister/Stark battle in Kings Landing.

Episode 6 will be the ends of Viserys (no doubt there)

Episode 7 likely means Robert and Drogo's mortal woundings.

[Balefont]

Doesn't matter how many times I read it, doesn't matter how many times I see it, Catelyn Stark is still a bloody moron.

This is the episode where it all goes FUBAR. Thanks alot Catelyn.

Oh boy. Another Catelyn hater.

In the context of the show, how is she a "bloody moron"?

[stevelabny]

I really don't get the continued comments about making characters more sympathetic. How did you guys get through 4 books without learning that every narrator in ASOIAF is unreliable?

Every well-crafted character should be just like a real person... with motivations and reasoning, however flawed, for doing what they do.

Aliser Thorne has ALWAYS been right about Sam, and about the sorry state of the recruits. However, you always read about it tainted through the eyes of Jon and his Stark-ness. We also know that Aliser talks tough, but doesn't actually do anything about it. And sure enough, the show has only shown him directing attacks against Jon, and scolding the recruits, but never actually TEACHING.

Jaime has always been the total package he is in book 3, YOU don't find out about his thoughts and private conversations, but he obviously didn't change his opinion on why he killed Aerys or how people would react or how he felt about Cersei and Tyrion and the Kingsguard. The only change Jaime goes through is realizing that Cersei doesn't actually love him the way he loves her. And that he comes to respect Brienne. And you know what? If he had to push an 7 year old out a window to save Brienne, he would.

You can argue that part of the fun/gimmick of the books is the unreliable narrator, and that is lost on the show to a certain extent, and you may be right, but there is NO WAY to film the POVs from the book.

[Grogsmash]

In the context of the show, how is she a "bloody moron"?

For doing exactly what she did.

What is the best case for capturing Tyrion atm? She takes him to the Vale, he is tried and convicted and killed. Yet convicted on what evidence? Off Petyr saying it was Tyrion's dagger? Which even if it was Tyrion's dagger, still doesn't prove a damn thing, since he could have given it away or it might have been stolen. What was his motivation to do so? Again she has no idea of the motivation either.

So in the best case he gets convicted and killed off shoddy evidence in a trial that no one outside of Stark loyalists will accept, and still no one would know why he did it. This would clearly put them at the brink of war with the Lannisters even if Ned could get Robert to stop an actual war.

Yet all that is the BEST CASE scenario, if he is convicted and Ned/Robert stop a full-blown war. Obviously way worse things happen. She was more than a bloody moron. I mean honestly, how did she think this was going to work out well at all is beyond me.

[TheEvilKing]

Wasn't blown away by this episode like I was last week. I think perhaps I was a little disappointed - was expecting the whole Hand's Tourney this ep. Knight of the Flowers, Lord Beric, the Hound vs the Mountain! Ah well, guess I can look forward to it next week.

Good stuff:

I enjoyed all the scenes at Winterfell. Hodor & 3IC, a bit more Theon, Robb being all coldly courteous, Tyrion. Nicely done.

The Doreah/Viserys scene was good, possibly went on for a bit long though. Doreah is hot as fuck.

Littlefinger was much improved. I liked the scene with Ned.

Jon Snow and Allister Thorne were great.

The last scene was cool. Cat was kinda badass in it.

Stuff that wasn't as good:

Ned Stark Investigates doesn't do much for me. To be fair, it wasn't the most interesting story in the books to me either.

The Jory/Jaime scene fell a bit flat for me.

The tourney left me a bit underwhelmed. Hoping it'll get a bit more epic next week.

Not enough Arya! No Syrio! Barely any Robert! No Rhakaro! :thumbsdown:

Bit too much Sam.

It was also a bit too expositiony. Lots of straight up explanations of history and stuff. Wasn't as subtle as last week's worldbuilding.