How Would You Rate Episode 104?

[John (Snow) Doe]

I don't think voice-overs would suit the TV series - the books aren't written in a first-person perspective, and so much of their richness depends on subtle observation (as Syrio would say, using your eyes) than on explicit acknowledgment.

I've been as much a critic as anyone on this forum re: lack of action and overabundance of dialogue. Frankly, I'm reminded of how slow the books were to grow on me; I wasn't a dedicated page-turner until about page 300 of AGoT. But I trusted GRRM and I'm glad I did, so I'll trust D&D. Looking ahead, it's perfectly possible that the show is about to change gears completely and go to all action, little dialogue. From the preview of Ep 5 alone, it's clear we're in for (i) Cat & Co v. Mountain Tribes (ii) Ned & Bodyguard v. Jaime & Lannisters, and (iii) Sandor v. Gregor. I'd prefer they strive for balance, but I'm yearning to see swords clash.

*As for Ned's execution - there was a poll done (can't remember the article exactly) showing that, amongst fans, it is the most anticipated moment of season 1 (the Dragons' birth was #2, Viserys' crowning was #3). I think it will actually go over very well with non-readers and attract a larger fanbase. Ned dying in Book 1 was the definitive moment of the series - its tone and flavor were clearly asserted as GRRM established that nobody is safe, and this isn't a fairy-tale fantasy by any means. It's going to intrigue a lot of people, especially with Bean's casting and top-billing receiving such universal praise.

I'm curious if they'll go for a big name actor for Stannis/Davos in Season 2 to be the emotional core of the show. My hunch is "no", because that's not how the books are written, but having a central character to follow adds structure, and adding a top actor would garner a lot of publicity....time will tell.*

Edited May 11, 2011 by John (Snow) Doe

[John (Snow) Doe]

ps - if somebody would please direct me of how to use the "spoiler protection", I'd be much obliged. Or is that option only available to moderators?

[Tywin's bastard]

ps - if somebody would please direct me of how to use the "spoiler protection", I'd be much obliged. Or is that option only available to moderators?

Spoilers are written like this: [spoiler] *text*

[Whitering]

Well, I just got around to watching it. I gave it a 5 being, what I would consider, and average show. I don't understand the moves the directors are making. Why is Littlefinger telling Sansa about the Hound instead of the Hound himself? Do they mean to minimize that relationship while pushing Littlefinger and Sansa? I guess landscape and ease of shooting changed the Dothraki into nomads who wander through verdant lands. Okay.

Dany's storyline kind of jerks along, jumping from lily pad to lily pad, whereas the books have a much smoother character progression. Sam and Jon talking about girls? Why?

All in all, pretty average. That's how I've felt about the whole series so far. If I wasn't a gigantic geek fan of the books I likely would have dropped it already. I watch it now more just to see how they are going to mess about with the books I love so much. It was like this with the Lord of the Rings movies for me. I liked Fellowship, I could understand the changes they made, and why they made them. The second movie lost me though, I couldn't see any reason for the changes they made, while there were no Ewoks running around, it still turned me off and I never watched Return of the King.

There have been no gigantic changes yet, but these little ones that just keep nibbling at me.

[Elrick]

I have to say that I'm amazed with the acting in this show. The woman that plays Catelyn is a terrific actress and so far I'm enjoying this series very much although they'll never be as good as the books I feel that they capture everything perfectly.

[Black Sheep]

If I wasn't a gigantic geek fan of the books I likely would have dropped it already loved it much more.

[valacirca]

Why is Littlefinger telling Sansa about the Hound instead of the Hound himself?

This. So disappointed with this.

Dany's storyline kind of jerks along, jumping from lily pad to lily pad, whereas the books have a much smoother character progression.

I'd have to disagree. Dany's storyline kind of jerks along in the first half of the book as well. For every 10 or so chapters of the Stark storyline, we get one Dany chapter, which is a bit jarring and disjointed and that translates to what we get from the TV show.

I mean: Dany I is the setup to her story... and then Dany II is the wedding already... and then Dany III suddenly shifts to the Dothraki lands and she's pregnant... and then Dany IV is the events in Vaes Dothrak. That's a ton of progression to cram into four book chapters, which refects on how it's portrayed on TV.

Actually, I feel like the TV show actually handles the initial disjointedness of the Dany storyline very well by adding Dany-storyline scenes and moving her chapters up so that her storyline moves in every episode. Because if they didn't move her chapters up, there shouldn't have been any Dany in E04.

Sam and Jon talking about girls? Why?

+1 - I did not dig that as well.

The woman that plays Catelyn is a terrific actress

Yup, she's good... but not in the way I imagined Catelyn would be from the book. Having said that, I've warmed up to her portrayal of Cat. Can't say the same about Littlefinger.

Edited May 12, 2011 by valacirca

[Ninepenny King]

not to compare books to shows but....the hands tourney was a major major tool in the book for introducing many characters and establishing gregor as ax crazy- Baelishs little story to sansa does not do the justice that gregor lopping that horses head off then going after loras would have done.. How Epic would the show have been if we Saw gregor Lopp the head off..the show woulda been a 10! i give this episode a 5. I have seen reviews from people online that dont even mention gregor after the episode.... because the little story is not as effective as the visual..it would took 3 mins...yet they gave us a bathtub scene...for the sole purpose of skin that went on and on.... Gregor chopping the horses head off would been the ULTIMATE Scene and had peopel talking at the water coolers....and they would all be saying Gregors freaking crazy

[Ninepenny King]

2

They seem to have held the Hands tourney at my local renaissance fair. That was pretty bad and disappointing as I was looking forward to this part of the series since the beginning.

i agree it was vastly m,ore epic in the book and what we got was i dont know.... something like u said at a small renisance fair and no sandor winning 40000 dragons

[Davieboy]

I found this the weakest of the eps. so far - did not like Sam much - perhaps he'll grow on me. The conversation about girls with Jon was pretty awful I thought. Also stiil underwhelmed by Littlefinger - Aiden Gillen was my choice from way back, but so far something (Carcetti?) seems missing.... Varys seems prety much OK, but in my head I'm listening for the Roy Dotrice voice.

Bath scene was meh, though I think Viserys and Dany are excellent.

Good things - The Mountain of course, plus Eddard, Cat and Tyrion all fab as usual.

Great things - Arya, the star of the series so far, and Hodor - perfect!

As I say, the weakest so far, a 6 for me, but I still loved it and it's a 10 compared to anything else. My pal is over from Australia and I can't wait to sit him down to watch all the eps so far... I've force-fed this series to quite a few people and it seems to be all positive, with many of them proposing to pick up the subsequent books once this season is played out. Best thing is that my wife is hooked after hearing me witter on about ASoIaF for years!

[valacirca]

not to compare books to shows but....the hands tourney was a major major tool in the book for introducing many characters and establishing gregor as ax crazy- Baelishs little story to sansa does not do the justice that gregor lopping that horses head off then going after loras would have done.. How Epic would the show have been if we Saw gregor Lopp the head off..the show woulda been a 10! i give this episode a 5. I have seen reviews from people online that dont even mention gregor after the episode.... because the little story is not as effective as the visual..it would took 3 mins...yet they gave us a bathtub scene...for the sole purpose of skin that went on and on.... Gregor chopping the horses head off would been the ULTIMATE Scene and had peopel talking at the water coolers....and they would all be saying Gregors freaking crazy

That part where Gregor beheads the horse and goes crazy is still coming up in the next episode - E05. They just showed the first part of the tournament in E04.

I also don't understand the backlash against the bathtub scene. I've seen a number of people criticizing that already and I thought that (skin aside) that was one of the better scenes in that episode. That was really good dialogue and chemistry between Doreah and Viserys, plus it was shot/framed well and I could take some pretty screencaps from it.

[Bronn Stone]

not to compare books to shows but....the hands tourney was a major major tool in the book for introducing many characters and establishing gregor as ax crazy- Baelishs little story to sansa does not do the justice that gregor lopping that horses head off then going after loras would have done.. How Epic would the show have been if we Saw gregor Lopp the head off..the show woulda been a 10! i give this episode a 5. I have seen reviews from people online that dont even mention gregor after the episode.... because the little story is not as effective as the visual..it would took 3 mins...yet they gave us a bathtub scene...for the sole purpose of skin that went on and on.... Gregor chopping the horses head off would been the ULTIMATE Scene and had peopel talking at the water coolers....and they would all be saying Gregors freaking crazy

In the books, the tournament takes place over two days. In the adaptation, the tournament crosses two episodes.

I kinda wish that HBO-GO had set #5 as their insta-watch. Because a lot of the action payoff from Ep. 4 is coming in #5.

[Elrick]

I'm not surprised to see a lot people some what disapointed on here... As most seem to be fans of the books I can understand that completely. I was a little disapointed in Littlefinger giving the information about the Hound's facial wound but then again I've been completely disapointed at the actor who portrays the hound. Someone could have done a way better job and so far he doesn't act nearly angry enough. I feel like the actor is missing a crucial part to what made the hound well the hound.

Either way everything else seems to be going well for me. :)

[RAddichio]

Game of Thrones in general is lightyears in quality ahead of almost everything else available on TV. Starz new series 'Camelot' is another quality show, although admittedly Arthur's ancient legend has a difficult time competing with eloquent imps, talking ravens and the seven gods of Westeros. Still, having a new episode each week, for two brilliant series, is a dream come true. Tried The Borgias for 3eps and the interminable poisoning horrors, without any other redemptive qualities, triggered cancellation of our new SHO subscription. HBO's however will remain intact to the very last moment of GoT.

Isn't our individual ratings of each episode afterall a very subjective thing? Someone earlier said they found the throne room dialogue between Ned and Jaime to be boring, while I found it one of the most stunning scenes so far - both visually and emotionally. The Jaime character's rationalization for his king slaying was clearly revealed with the actor's intense delivery of the line "It felt like justice to me!" During that particular scene, the stunningly designed throne room itself helped give non-readers a tantalizing taste of Martin's richly described world of Westeros.

[valacirca]

I don't think The Hound has been given enough chances yet or enough material to work with to bring the character fully to the TV show, but in the few times we've seen him, I think he has the look down to a pat. And his "anger" is not the outward type like his brother; it's more of the bubbling under type that I think is depicted very well so far.

[Abaddon]

I kinda wish that HBO-GO had set #5 as their insta-watch. Because a lot of the action payoff from Ep. 4 is coming in #5.

Don't forget nobody has seen Ep7 yet. The same cannot be said of Ep1-6. I have a hunch that might be a factor here as well.

[The Fenris Wolf]

Game of Thrones in general is lightyears in quality ahead of almost everything else available on TV. Starz new series 'Camelot' is another quality show, although admittedly Arthur's ancient legend has a difficult time competing with eloquent imps, talking ravens and the seven gods of Westeros. Still, having a new episode each week, for two brilliant series, is a dream come true. Tried The Borgias for 3eps and the interminable poisoning horrors, without any other redemptive qualities, triggered cancellation of our new SHO subscription. HBO's however will remain intact to the very last moment of GoT.

Isn't our individual ratings of each episode afterall a very subjective thing? Someone earlier said they found the throne room dialogue between Ned and Jaime to be boring, while I found it one of the most stunning scenes so far - both visually and emotionally. The Jaime character's rationalization for his king slaying was clearly revealed with the actor's intense delivery of the line "It felt like justice to me!" During that particular scene, the stunningly designed throne room itself helped give non-readers a tantalizing taste of Martin's richly described world of Westeros.

Yep, you make some really good points here. This show is indeed light-years ahead of most other shows on TV, and that's not just a slam against the general quality of television shows. It is (IMHO) a phenomenal show so far. I think what is frustrating folks is a combination of changes to their own favorite scenes (which I'm guilty of), and the fact that some very minor and easy changes would bring some scenes from meh to WTF awesome.

Edited May 12, 2011 by The Fenris Wolf

[Ser Warpechowski]

not to compare books to shows but....the hands tourney was a major major tool in the book for introducing many characters and establishing gregor as ax crazy- Baelishs little story to sansa does not do the justice that gregor lopping that horses head off then going after loras would have done.. How Epic would the show have been if we Saw gregor Lopp the head off..the show woulda been a 10! i give this episode a 5. I have seen reviews from people online that dont even mention gregor after the episode.... because the little story is not as effective as the visual..it would took 3 mins...yet they gave us a bathtub scene...for the sole purpose of skin that went on and on.... Gregor chopping the horses head off would been the ULTIMATE Scene and had peopel talking at the water coolers....and they would all be saying Gregors freaking crazy

AFAIK the tourney has not ended yet.

[McGinnis]

Voted 9. I think they handled most of the episode extremely well. "Stuff is finally starting to happen," to quote one of my non-reader friends (all of whom love the show more with each episode - in fact, one of them is considering the books because of it).

I loved the way Dany threatened Viserys after he attacked her. I might be misremembering, but she didn't do that in the book, did she? I really should know this since I've already read it 3 times, but oh well.

Loving Kit Harington as Jon Snow, but then again I thought he was perfect pretty much from the first episode. I didn't care too much for the Viserys + Doreah bathtub scene, but I did like how Viserys's mood suddenly changed at the end of it. Really shows his character in a way the books didn't. I was afraid it was just going to be a gratuitous sex scene between them, but then the scene redeemed itself. Could have been a bit shorter, though.

They also established Thorne as a prick, but he does kind of speak the truth. Liking Sam so far, but I'll have to see how they handle him in season 2-3 when he starts to play a more important part. Was nice to finally see some of Ghost this time around. They should have at least shown him walking next to Jon in episode 3.

I thought the pacing was very good as well this time around, though I still think the show would have been much better with those extra 2 episodes GRRM wanted.

I found Littlefinger telling Sansa the Hound's backstory with Gregor a little weird, and I'd have preferred if Sandor actually told that story himself. However, knowing about LF's interest in Sansa with regards to the later books, I do think that this kind of has its place, too. I'm not all that bothered by it.

[Noir Dove]

I can definitely understand where some 96'ers (my own dub for "from the beginning" fans) Would be upset by some of the changes. Investing over a decade into a fandom is quite a long time, especially when the series is not yet complete! But I think we have to understand the difference in medium. Books cannot be translated directly from page to screen. Time, money, and many more things are a factor here. Being a newcomer to the series (yes yes, I know that makes me a newb AND a summer solider. I accept and embrace it ;) ) I can say how much I love and am enthralled by this amazing world.

That being said, I understand the frustration that favorite scene have been changed, moved, or are nonexistent. And I can only hope those frustrations and "meh" moments slowly fade.

I really liked how RAddichio put it. Some scenes will be boring to some and mind blowing to others. But that is the beauty of art. It can be interpreted in many different ways. Then we can discuss those ways in awesome places like this :)