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Ran

How Would You Rate Episode 104?

  

304 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

    • 1
      1
    • 2
      2
    • 3
      6
    • 4
      3
    • 5
      9
    • 6
      25
    • 7
      40
    • 8
      70
    • 9
      102
    • 10
      46


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I gave a 9. Took off one point as I thought they should show more of the tournament. But then again, I could always watch A Knight's Tale over and over again.

I just watched that on Saturday! "It's called a lance, hello!" Love it.

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I liked a lot of the episode, but it seemd kind of disjointed and rapid compared to 03. I'd give it a six mostly cause I expect the better ones are coming.

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I gave the E04 a 7, placing it ahead of E03, but behind E02 and E01. My biggest gripe about it was that most of it felt like stuff that wasn't in the book, either changed or added. Although interestingly, I thought that overall, the differences in E04 didn't feel as jarring as E03.

My thoughts on E04:

- For starters, I loved the treatment they gave to Bran's vision with the crow. The way it was presented in the show was subtle and enigmatic, which I felt was very effective and intriguing. If they had played that straight-up, I'd bet that it would have come across as corny. The following scene with Tyrion and Jon was also well done; excellently condensed and adapted from the book, imo. The portrayal of Hodor was spot on, btw. And Peter Dinklage was awesome as per usual.

- Samwell Tarly wasn't quite the way I imagined him to be though. He seems like a mentally unstable/challenged teenager in parts - the type that becomes a serial killer in the future - rather than a gentle, cowardly lad. Didn't like how they made Jon fight 1-on-3 compared to 3-on-3 in the book. Combined with the fight being way too short, it makes Jon look too much like a prodigious super solider. LOL @ Grenn spewing out spit.

- The way they portrayed Vaes Dothrak was so beautiful from afar - even better than how I imagined it (doesn't it supposedly have a wall though?) - but again, the shortcoming of set design comes into play again here. So many interior shots (Viserys & Doreah in the tub and Viserys vs Dany in the hut for example) but very little shots to give us an idea of how Vaes Dothrak looks. Doreah's beautiful nudity aside, I thought that hot tub scene with Viserys was nicely done though.

- Didn't get the point of the Sansa + Septa Mordane scene. I felt they could have cut that out. But the moment I saw Arya atop the steps on one leg, I immediately had this big dumb grin on my face :) Yeah like that. LOL.

- I still feel like Littlefinger comes across as quite a flat, dry and bland portrayal when I imagine he should be one of the more colorful characters. Really disappointed with LF.

- I was waiting for the part where they were going to go at Rast in his sleep because I wanted to see Ghost so much... and he was there... and he was ferocious... but the scene was way too fast. A simple, stern "Understand?!" from Jon then a nod of acknowledgement from Rast would have made the scene much better. Also, not seeing Ghost for most of the Wall scenes and then seeing Ghost again felt kind of weird. Anyway... the succeeding scene where the guys would touch Sam was quite amusing and I loved Thorne's parting words.

- Ned's conclusion that Gendry is the King's bastard came too quick as well.

- That scene with Jaime and Jory: If Jaime was the sly and cunning Lannister that he is, I would have imagined that he would rather have accepted Ned's message for the King from Jory and read it himself instead of sending Jory away with the message undelivered.

- Dany vs Viserys was very well played! Great job by both actors and an excellent adaptation/condensation directly from the book.

- Not digging the Jon-Sam interaction in general. Not bad, but... idk... can't quite put my finger on it.

- Ser Jorah Mormont may possibly be one of the more major characters that I care for the least in the show as of now.

- Ser Hugh's death at the hands of Gregor was excellently. Almost exactly how I hoped it would be. Maybe a bit too little build-up of tension, but negligible. It was as brutal, bloody and merciless as I felt. Looking forward to more Gregor in the next episode. But I really really didn't like that they made Littlefinger tell the Hound-and-Mountain story because aside from the fact that I'm not liking LF's portrayal at all, I think it would have been way more effective if they made The Hound tell it himself like it was in the book. I also didn't get why Arya was there with Sansa during the joust. It seemed to be a pointless change from the book.

- Cersei and Ned's scene was pretty good. I liked seeing Cersei looking and sounding like a sly and cunning Lannister.

- Final scene with Cat and Tyrion was solid as well. Classic Peter Dinklage goodness. Not the best of cliffhangers, but it sets up the next episode perfectly. If done right, E05 could very well be one of the best episodes in the series. The chapters they'll be covering in the book for E05 hold tons of potential for great TV.

Edited by valacirca

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Hello all,

Non book reader here and new fan of the show.I will give this episode a 7,and most for the lack of action,or to put it better the lack of action that i wanted to see since i saw the first episode.What got me hooked to this show was the minute i saw the white walkers.Being a Resident Evil fan,i was like : zombies on snow!!??Thats amazing:D

Now since then the dialogue has been great,and i love how the explain the story so far,i especially like the story of the wolfs and horse people(im really bad with names).But i really want to see more of the white walkers and i also i did not appreciate the ending scene.

I mean why go trough all that trouble with calling on for honor and you go threaten a midget?A funny one at that?

Welcome Evil.Bubbles! Would love to hear more about your thoughts in the unspoiler discussion thread. We don't get much more White Walker action this season, but if we get later seasons, I don't think you'll be disappointed. That's all I'm going to say on that for now. ;)

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I rated this one an 8 - although it would have been an 8.5, I'm rounding down because I think that everything is about to step up a gear in the next episodes and I want to save my 9s and 10s.

This episode finally managed to make all the stories fit into one episode without any of them feeling rushed or disjointed. It allowed room for breathing space in the plots, particularly at the Wall where we begin to understand what drives Jon Snow and once again he shows a range of emotion rather than sullen and forelorn. An excellent scene between Sam and Jon while they cleaned the table was slightly ruined by clunky dialogue about Jon's surname, but these two actors have chemistry and the potential for the relationship in future episodes is exciting.

Cogman had a really difficult job with this episode, maybe the most difficult of all the episodes in the first season. He had to move all of the pieces to a point where the main storylines reach a precipice, so whether that be setting up or developing a conflict (in the case of Jon and Dany) or CSI King's Landing, adding depth to the capital storyline and layers to the players there. I loved how the conflict between the Hound and the Mountain was set up! His dialogue was frequently brilliant, his new scene with Theon and Tyrion for example, but sometimes poorly executed, "What is my name?"... but he has done the job of the episode!

Finally we have the scene which pushes the pieces off the precipice. Michelle Fairley really acted the hell out of that scene, I am loving what she is doing with Catelyn! Roll on the next episode, hopefully Fairley and Dinklage duking it out will be the major thread of the episode!

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Instead, they are sticking so closely to the book that they are falling into the trap of telling us what happens/happened instead of showing us.

I totally disagree with this. Like I previously said, my biggest gripe about E04 is that most of it felt like stuff that wasn't in the book, either changed or added. There should be more faithfulness to the source material than modifications to it to fit the medium, imo. For the most part, the boring and jarring parts I've encountered so far in the series have stemmed from the liberties that have been taken with the story (although there isn't anything too major and there are welcome additions that were nicely done).

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Hmm, this was an odd one for me. I liked all the individual scenes, but I felt they didn't fit together into a whole, and the episode as a whole left me fairly cold.

IMO, all the previous episodes packed a serious emotional punch because the various storylines complemented each other so well. I didn't get that here. Each bit was good, but they didn't seem to build on each other. Other than a slight thematic connection between Bran and Sam's stories, I didn't feel like the various scenes commented on each other in the way that Dany's marriage reflected on Cersei's in ep 1, or Ned/Arya reflected on Cersei/Joffrey in ep. 3.

Overall, though, it was engrossing and they did a good job of setting future action up, while still keeping things interesting in this episode. So I'm giving it a 7. My rankings for the season are now: 7/8/8/7

Edit: Interesting, I seem to be decidedly in the minority, comparing the poll results from last week to this week.

Edited by Xenophon

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Oddly enough, despite this easily being my favorite episode of the four so far, it has been the most difficult to re-watch because of how long the Viserys and Jon/Sam scenes are. Pretty dull after you've seen it once.

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I really loved Viserys' scenes with Doreah and Dany. Watched them twice already and didn't get old.

Can't say the same for the Jon/Sam scenes though.

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Looking at the ratings, in which the lowest episode ranking (when adjusted for outliers) is close to an 8, it's pretty clear to me there's some inflation. Look at how many people, in their reviews each week, write "best episode ever". I'm enjoying this show, I think it's great - but it's not as great as it could be, for obvious reasons. Most of my friends who're watching the show as non-readers are confused and disillusioned. As fans, I think we should be most critical of the show; by handing out high praise in light of the show's shortcomings, I feel we're undermining its potential.

Looking at the ratings, in which every episode has a handful of people rating them a one or a two, it's pretty clear to me that there is some ranking deflation. Right? And if you're going to look at the "best episode ever" posts you need to note that most of those folks do NOT think every episode is "best ever" but actually have episodes they like more than others. For example, I rated the episodes so far an 8, a 9, a 6, and a 9. OBVIOUSLY these ratings are subjective. There are folks who posted their ratings and gave Ep3 a 9 or 10 and gave Ep4 a 7, which is the complete opposite of my reaction. Because, you know, these are subjective opinions.

But you are telling me my ratings (by proxy, since you are speaking to the group) are "inflated". That's insulting, and what in fact you are really saying is "I don't think it's as good as the consensus here". WHICH IS FINE. But by saying the ratings are "inflated", you're also effectively stating that you somehow have a truer measure as to the absolute worth of the adaptation, where other people's are biased, again, away from some sort of absolute truth to which you alone are privy. Which is a little pompous, and again, insulting.

As for "most of my friends who are non-readers are confused and disillusioned" that isn't my experience at all. So, your mileage may vary. Extrapolating one small sample size (yours or mine) to the whole is not statistically sound.

Just my $0.02 and change.

Edited by Abaddon

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Agreed @ Abaddon.

Between friends watching who I know who aren't readers, as well as professional critics and online non-reader reviewers I'm following, I am not hearing or reading about things being confusing at all. To a reader, we assume it must be confusing, but people keep forgetting that the non-readers do not know what is not there. They can't be confused over missing information they don't know exists. They aren't confused over Robert's sister, or the Kingsguard, or the Hound, like people keep assuming -- because they don't know they should care yet. The information is being handled fine.

As far as disillusioned goes, they're supposed to be. AGOT is essentially a medieval "who dun it," even moreso in the show. People are trying to guess all sorts of mysteries, and being misled is part of the fun.

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Standing in line with the people who thought it was the best episode so far. I gave it an 8, because I think they can do even better than this.

Loved the scenes with Viserys and Doreah, Jon and Sam, Cat and Tyrion, and the short dialogue between Jaime and Jory outside Robert's bedroom.

Didn't quite like the scene between Viserys and Dany -- found it a bit rushed, and the one featuring Ghost -- looked clumsy somehow, but still glad to see more of the direwolves. Everything else I really liked.

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I gave it a 7 - the only things that brings it down for me was Littlefinger getting to do the Hounds story and, probably number one on my dislike scale would be the bathtub scene. It wasn't the info dump that bothers me it was just I didn't particularly like the scene all that much.

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Looking at the ratings, in which every episode has a handful of people rating them a one or a two, it's pretty clear to me that there is some ranking deflation. Right? And if you're going to look at the "best episode ever" posts you need to note that most of those folks do NOT think every episode is "best ever" but actually have episodes they like more than others. For example, I rated the episodes so far an 8, a 9, a 6, and a 9. OBVIOUSLY these ratings are subjective. There are folks who posted their ratings and gave Ep3 a 9 or 10 and gave Ep4 a 7, which is the complete opposite of my reaction. Because, you know, these are subjective opinions.

But you are telling me my ratings (by proxy, since you are speaking to the group) are "inflated". That's insulting, and what in fact you are really saying is "I don't think it's as good as the consensus here". WHICH IS FINE. But by saying the ratings are "inflated", you're also effectively stating that you somehow have a truer measure as to the absolute worth of the adaptation, where other people's are biased, again, away from some sort of absolute truth to which you alone are privy. Which is a little pompous, and again, insulting.

As for "most of my friends who are non-readers are confused and disillusioned" that isn't my experience at all. So, your mileage may vary. Extrapolating one small sample size (yours or mine) to the whole is not statistically sound.

Just my $0.02 and change.

My intent wasn't to be insulting, and I apologize for doing so. By "inflated", what I mean, I suppose, is that being fans of the books, we're inclined to love this series and view it with starry eyes, no matter what. I know I am. Personally, I love ASoIaF and generally think GRRM and D&D can do no wrong; but I think it would be ultimately detrimental to the series for us to indulge ourselves while not considering the wider audience, from which the show draws its subsistence. When Season 2 was greenlit, I breathed a huge sigh of relief and basically thought to myself "I can enjoy this show and not worry about what the non-readers and non-fantasy fans think; they don't matter anymore."

In press releases leading up to the show, GRRM and the producers continuously voiced concerns over attracting viewership outside of the readership. Bearing that in mind, I've tried to (i) enjoy each episode for my own sake while watching it, and (ii) later evaluate it from a more objective view. In giving my honest opinion of each episode, I'm trying to separate myself from my biases that I hold as a fan.

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I totally disagree with this. Like I previously said, my biggest gripe about E04 is that most of it felt like stuff that wasn't in the book, either changed or added. There should be more faithfulness to the source material than modifications to it to fit the medium, imo. For the most part, the boring and jarring parts I've encountered so far in the series have stemmed from the liberties that have been taken with the story (although there isn't anything too major and there are welcome additions that were nicely done).

Im reading book 1 again and Im impressed that so few stuff happens in each episode. Most of the information on the chapters is about memories, thoughts, perceptions and dialogue. For example, in the book Ned and Robert barely see or talk to each other. I believe they dont even meet each other in the book in fact before Robert´s death besides the scene where Ned retires as Hand..

They have to create scenes to build up the tension and the animosity between characters. Its hard to portray thoughts in a TV setting. Even the aditional scenes between Ned and the Lannisters are done to create conflict and build up tension for what we know is going to happen.

Edited by Ser Warpechowski

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My intent wasn't to be insulting, and I apologize for doing so. By "inflated", what I mean, I suppose, is that being fans of the books, we're inclined to love this series and view it with starry eyes, no matter what. I know I am. Personally, I love ASoIaF and generally think GRRM and D&D can do no wrong; but I think it would be ultimately detrimental to the series for us to indulge ourselves while not considering the wider audience, from which the show draws its subsistence. When Season 2 was greenlit, I breathed a huge sigh of relief and basically thought to myself "I can enjoy this show and not worry about what the non-readers and non-fantasy fans think; they don't matter anymore."

In press releases leading up to the show, GRRM and the producers continuously voiced concerns over attracting viewership outside of the readership. Bearing that in mind, I've tried to (i) enjoy each episode for my own sake while watching it, and (ii) later evaluate it from a more objective view. In giving my honest opinion of each episode, I'm trying to separate myself from my biases that I hold as a fan.

I think it goes in both directions. I don't disagree that many fans of the books enjoy things in the series easier but I also think that many book fans complain a lot more than a non-reader would. This is of course not limited to ASOAIF fans but rather the common thing with nerd culture where nit-picking is staple goods.

I also think that we here on the board haven't been too good at anticipating how non-readers will react to the show, judging from what's been written and how it often is contradicted when we hear non-readers voice their own opinions (although we don't have anywhere near enough data to draw ny broader conclusions). Since we're basically just guessing, I don't know if we're more suited to that than the creators of the show who have experience in this, and have done test screenings. I think the best critique we can give is what we feel ourselves, which will definitely be true. I'm not saying that we can't speculate on the non-readers but just be aware that the most important info about them will come from their own mouths.

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^ +1. I can't emphasize enough how much I agree with this post, but I do. A LOT.

Im reading book 1 again and Im impressed that so few stuff happens in each episode. Most of the information on the chapters is about memories, thoughts, perceptions and dialogue. For example, in the book Ned and Robert barely see or talk to each other. I believe they dont even meet each other in the book in fact before Robert´s death besides the scene where Ned retires as Hand..

Around the chapters in the book that the first four episodes have covered, Ned and Robert have interacted a couple of times. Off the top of my head:

- in Winterfell when Robert first visits

- that conversation that included the part where Robert asks Ned about Jon's mother

- when Arya is found after that scuffle with Joff

In the next episode I believe there should be at least two scenes with Ned-Robert exchanges:

- when Ned talks Robert out of joining the melee

- when they disagree about killing Dany after learning she's preggers

They have to create scenes to build up the tension and the animosity between characters. Its hard to portray thoughts in a TV setting. Even the aditional scenes between Ned and the Lannisters are done to create conflict and build up tension for what we know is going to happen.

I've figured it out! They should just use voice overs to communicate the thoughts of the characters!

LOL. Just kidding of course ;)

Edited by valacirca

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Actually when I imagined the TV series I thought that they would at least have some thoughs portrayed as voice overs in some scenes, but Ive hardly seen it in TV anywhere.

The general population barely think, so I guess they would have a hard time looking at characters with their mouths closed while their voices speak something. Hell, it works in Sex and the City, I dont know how it couldnt work in GoT LOL :D

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My intent wasn't to be insulting, and I apologize for doing so. By "inflated", what I mean, I suppose, is that being fans of the books, we're inclined to love this series and view it with starry eyes, no matter what. I know I am. Personally, I love ASoIaF and generally think GRRM and D&D can do no wrong; but I think it would be ultimately detrimental to the series for us to indulge ourselves while not considering the wider audience, from which the show draws its subsistence.
That's absolutely fair. I think Ran's previous response, which gives several concrete examples that for the critics at least this doesn't seem to be the case, is very germane to this concern. In fact, I would say that there are some critics who are fans of the books (Mo Ryan, most notably) who are more critical of the series than the average non-reader critic seems to be. In general, again from the critical response, it seems like on average the non-readers are just as hooked as the readers are.

Regarding the "average" fan (not a critic), I know your own personal experience is that the non-readers are struggling. I can only say that I think this varies widely and that based on the non-reader forums out there as well as my own personal experience, there are a ton of non-readers that are very engaged. Based on the continuing "good" (subjective) ratings and the fact that the audience seems to be sticking around, I think the show response is at this time strong enough to suggest the series can go longer than two seasons. Personally, I am very curious what happens when

Ned gets the axe

as I suspect that will turn some people off. But I think even those turned off will be compelled to see the first season out, and it ends with such a bang that I can't imagine people who watched it all the way through bailing on the second season.

Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful reply, I do understand where you are coming from, but I think there is ample evidence to suggest that for those non-readers that are not having the show click for them, there are many more that are.

Edited by Abaddon

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Actually when I imagined the TV series I thought that they would at least have some thoughs portrayed as voice overs in some scenes, but Ive hardly seen it in TV anywhere.

The general population barely think, so I guess they would have a hard time looking at characters with their mouths closed while their voices speak something. Hell, it works in Sex and the City, I dont know how it couldnt work in GoT LOL :D

Are you serious? I think that's completely untrue. You could say that taking the *entire* TV population as a group (nearly impossible), most of them don't watch TV to be intellectually challenged, and I'd agree. See the ratings for shows like Dancing with the Stars and American Idol as proof. That being said, your average HBO mini-series viewer is a whole different animal. Shows like Rome, The Sopranos, and especially Deadwood were complex, exciting, edgy, and had a rabid and (most importantly) LARGE fan base.

I watch this series with my wife (non-reader) and discuss it with some guys at work (some readers, some non-readers). I can say, based on my own limited observations, that the ratings and comments on this board are generally inflated over that of the general population. Again, based on my own experience, so if it's different with you don't get yourself twisted into knots. Most of them are commenting on things like acting, dialogue, the looks of the characters, and whether there is any T&A or action. They don't care if Littlefinger tells the story of the Hound or if the Hound does it himself, exposition is still exposition. And it's boring, generally. Imagine watching another series, like Deadwood, and instead of seeing the fight between Bullock and the indian out in the wilds, you are told about it. Even worse, told about it by someone NOT BULLOCK, having a conversation with someone else. How interesting is that?

My biggest fear with this series is that it will go the route of shows like Jericho or Firefly. A couple of seasons, and then it will just fade away.

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