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Triskele

White-Luck Warrior III

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One theme that has been with us in glimpses since Judging Eye: the new slave laws under the Kellhusian empire. Society did become a much better place for the downtrodden under Kellhus, a fact that met with little enthusiasm anywhere in society, least of all the Yatwerians.

On page 126 of White-Luck, the are already repealed:

The Slave Laws, which had afforded protections the enslaved had not known since they days of Cenei, were repealed.

This is one of the first signs of the collapse of the New Empire.

Muppet Second Apocalypse

Here are the rules: Whenever you post a contribution to this thread, you are allowed to include one link to a Bakker character if he/she/it were a muppet. Remember that your post has to include real content beyond the muppet link, otherwise this thread will be forumgamed, a hoary future worse than Hell.

Shaeönanra

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Man, I wish people would draw fan art for these books.

I still have no idea how to imagine an Inchoroi, no matter how many times I read their descriptions.

They're taller than a man, they have wings that can fold neatly into something resembling horns, so like bat-wings. They have arms, though I have no idea how many fingers on their hands. They have giant dicks. Their original faces had no mouth, so they engineered faces onto their faces.

That's the part that bothers me. What does the original Inchoroi face look like? We're told the face in the face looks human. But the outer-face, what do its eyes looks like? Does it have ears? How much larger is it than the inner-face? And the inner-face, how much of a head is it? Does it have hair? Does it have ears? What surrounds it? Scarred tissue? Fleshy tissue?

This book said that it was surrounded by gums, but that doesn't make sense, since the original faces didn't have mouths how could they have gums? Unless it simply means it's surrounded by red flesh.

And Bashrag, I can't imagine what their faces look like either, or their hands. I have a vague concept of it, but I couldn't draw the fused bodies if I wanted to, how do the joints work, for example. Is it three arms all the way to the shoulder? Or does it split at the elbow?

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Ya know...why do the inchies have penises?

From a purely humanistic standpoint this is pretty stupid as far as pleasure seeking goes. Women are capable of experiencing a lot more pleasure over time than men are. Why aren't the inchies giant vag monsters that get off by inserting humans into their various orifices?

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I thought there was some description of them looking truly alien (like a lump with a bunch of distended reed-like mouths on tentecles) when they first rocked up. But I have no idea where that impression came from, hehe. I think Aurax's demonic body (the one with horns etc) may be a synthese and we haven't seen their true forms yet, but again, this is baseless.

I did like the skull fused within a skull thing though, that was evocotive, like some kind of head in a nasty bone vagina image in my mind.

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Speaking of Aurax, I think the dude would totally be dead without Aurang. He seems sorta dumb. Aurang taught the Tekne to the Mangaecca. Aurang was the Horde-General. Aurang was Spear-Bearer to Sil, and rode upon the back of Wutteat.

Aurax just happens to be his brother. Like I could imagine as the Nonmen fought the Inchoroi in Golgotterath, Aurang going out of his way trying to keep his moron of a brother alive.

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Ya know...why do the inchies have penises?

From a purely humanistic standpoint this is pretty stupid as far as pleasure seeking goes. Women are capable of experiencing a lot more pleasure over time than men are. Why aren't the inchies giant vag monsters that get off by inserting humans into their various orifices?

I presume that Inchies in their native state are hemaphroditic if they have genders at all.

And it seems logical that they have penises, that they birthed phalluses like they birthed mouths, but that they chose penises over vaginas because they correctly ascertained that having a penis conferred much higher social and political status and that having a vagina was correlated with having no agency/authority. They probably made the assumption that the bigger the penis, the more authority granted to you, so they grew pendulous phalluses in order to be taken seriously.

And as Curethan said, the demonic body with wings is probably a synthese, but it was probably built male because of all the social stuff that goes with being male.

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But...what social stuff? You mean to tell me that you see this giant weird creature with two skulls and wings and glistening shit and you're like 'well, okay, but you're a wee girl so I'm only going to pay you 70% of what you're worth'?

Just seems odd. If they're all about pleasure, there are more ways to go about it than having a dick. Hermaphroditic (or more likely asexual, honestly) would imply they'd be fine with lots of sexual organs. Why not 3 dicks! That's, like, almost three times as much respect.

Really, they should be just festooned with penises. On that note, Aurax has his testicles all over kermit.

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Obviously they need penises to let out all their black seed.

Suspect being penetrated and sqibbed by a synthese phallus has some kind of control or influence properties based on the way that Aurang was able to possess Esmi after he rang her bells.

From a narative perspective, the symbology of nasty manly attributes via giant phalluses works well - gaping fanged vaginas are creepy but lack the same thematic connotations, for example.

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Well, its not exactly sex they are after, its also the rape and domination - ie the power of penetrating against another's will.

So the phallus does in fact make the most sense.

The rape and domination is likely more important than the physical pleasure. Otherwise they'd be giant gobs of soft wet flesh with a million vaginas and clitorises and anyone who wanted to come along and give them an orgasm could.

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Otherwise they'd be giant gobs of soft wet flesh with a million vaginas and clitorises and anyone who wanted to come along and give them an orgasm could.

it'd be hilarious if this is what they were when the cunuroi found them. It was only upon encountering cunoroi and halaroi methods of copulation that they adopted penises. And the penis acquisition clouded their minds and turned them into rape monsters. Because that's what all men want to do, fuck-rape-stab-kill-penetrate-dominate all the time, that's what it means to be male, eh bakker?

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Suspect being penetrated and sqibbed by a synthese phallus has some kind of control or influence properties based on the way that Aurang was able to possess Esmi after he rang her bells.

I realize I have a question about that old scene. Was thing called Aurang that showed up there someone that Aurang had possessed like he possessed Esmi later in the series, or was it a construct of the Tekne? I suspect the former, but I'm realizing that I'm not certain.

Switching gears from there I want to concede that on lots of little rereads, there is a lot of preaching by the author in this one. Again, this doesn't bother me too much partly because I'm the proverbial choir and I largely agree with the message. But there sure is a lot of "Men are like this" and "Men will do that" in this book. I've also noticed that the word "capricious" is used way too often. These are just little nitpicks for me, though I realize that they may be grating to others. I still think this was probably the best book overall.

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Dreaded double-post:

I currently have joined the camp that believes that Kellhus is going to destroy The Consult whether the No-God walks or not. I have virtually no belief at all that Kellhus becomes the No-God himself. I may look quite the fool for this, but here is part of my reasoning.

I'm rereading a Malowebi chapter, and I think it's instructive. This is one of Bakker's more sympathetic characters, at least to the author himself. Whether you find him sympathetic as a reader, I leave up to you. But there's the chapter about 2/3 through WLW which is virtually all Malowebi's inner-monologue. He is a huge admirer of Ajencis, he's certainly a skeptic, and his rival Likaro is clearly a guy who sees things in black-and-white with extra doses of certainty. This is Bakker's own feelings coming through here.

Here is the final passage (from page 381 of the Canadian version):

The Aspect-Emperor a genuine prophet? The myths of the No-God's resurrection true?

These were the claims that Likaro found the most absurd and offensive. And in all the world there was no greater fool.

That quote alone doesn't really prove anything about Kellhus, but I think it shows us that Malowebi is a guy who is smarter than most in the Bakkerverse, and he is a true skeptic like Bakker. Malowebi thinks that Likaro is a fool, and so does Bakker. We, as the reader, know that the No-God is legit, so we're being shown that Malowebi, like Sorweel, is beginning to understand that whatever one thinks about Kellhus, his war is real.

I do not think that Kellhus is simply assuming the mantle that he saw that Moenghus would have done; siding with The Consult to avoid damnation. I am sold that his goal is something more, whether it be good or otherwise in nature. I believe that Kellhus intends to destroy The Consult, and I believe that he will succeed. Although I myself am an "evangelical skeptic," and I'm far from certain.

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Yeh, I've always leaned that way. I'm more inclined to think Kellhus ends up being a tool of some other agency than achieving any kind of personal victory, nefarious or heroic.

But then I'm a big fan of tragirony.

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I don't think AE would have a very satisfying ending if Kell doesn't succeed in destroying the Consult. Whether or not he becomes a giant phallus that lives for 3000 years and sets humanity on a Golden Path forcing humankind to be at peace, repressing their warlike desires so that all human initiative is concentrated on progressing the species so that when Kellhus dies the now space faring humanity scatters to a hundred worlds in a pent up race desire to fuck and kill and dominate, thats something I'm not so sure of.

But yeah, it makes sense that AE ends with the destruction of the Consult, the way that PON needed to end with the destruction of Moenghus and 'success' of the holy war.

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Dunno, in the previous thread, someone mentioned Bakker said that it's like the opposite of a dude trying to bring meaning to a meaningless world. Bakkerworld already is meaningful, Kellhus is an agent of nihilism, an anti-uebermensch. The only way this makes sense is if the Consult succeeds and meaninglessness becomes fact.

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Bakkerworld already is meaningful, Kellhus is an agent of nihilism, an anti-uebermensch.

No to the first: Kellhus is most definitely not a nihilist. There’s a key scene in Thousandfold where he makes that decision upon inspection of a twig stuck in his sandal.

Also, he resembles Nietschean Superman, so unless I misunderstand your neologism, I disagree about the second part as well.

Bakker is an avatar of modernism. He’s Weber’s Entzauberung (disenchantment) personified. (Ironically, he’s also the best sorcerer in human history.)

Yalgrota Sranchammer

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An Uebermensch rewrites morality, right? Like Jesus would have been an uebermensch. Kellhus has done so, as well, but if his ultimate goal is to destroy morality - if he sides with the Consult - then he's not an uebermensch. Maybe not an anti-uebermensch, I suppose an anti-uebermensch would be like a Scylvendi, someone who clings rigidly to cultural norms entirely for their own sake or something.

And I didn't say Kellhus is a nihilist, but that he's an agent of nihilism - IF he sides with the Consult or somehow else seals shut Heaven, because he would turn a meaningful world into a meaningless one.

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I have always imagined Inchoroi look close to Aliens from Alien franchise, only the have gigantic dicks instead of tails, batlike wings, translucent skin showing inside organs instead of having them outside, and little extensible human head instead of second jaws.

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