Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Ran

[SPOILERS] New POV Revealed

Recommended Posts

There are too many PoVs at this point. It might not sound intuitive, but maybe in order to cut down on the number of PoVs, GRRM needs to add more PoVs. And I'd rather have a Barristan PoV than another PoV like Aeron.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, my problem with the Ironborn chapters as they are is that they are mostly completely irrelevant for the overall story. The first Aeron chapter is completely irrelevant, as we really did not need to see Aeron's reaction to Balon's death. It would have been much more interesting to to start either AFfC or the Ironborn chapters with a Balon chapter, depicting his death, and giving us also a clue about if a Faceless Man really was involved, and if there was some kind of history between Euron and Balon besides the Victarion affair.

[As I've mentioned said FM - has anyone ever thought about the possibility that there might be a FM in disguise among the Ironborn right now? There seems to be a consensus that Balon's murderer was not the Jaqen-FM, so he has to be somewhere right now? Maybe a certain mute woman just looks like a mute woman? Then Victarion is really, really dead...]

Then there is the whole Kingsmoot which is fun and all, but as it does not change the political situation as it is, we did not really need to see it (Renly's coronation would have been a fun thing to see as well, but we did not see it, either). Or, it would have been better to start the Ironborn story there, and give us another two chapters after 'The Reaver' to elaborate a little bit more on certain things. I admit that the Kingsmoot was a good way to introduce us to Euron as a character, and various secondary Ironborn characters.

I just feel that the important/new part of the Ironborn story starts after the Kingsmoot. This is true to a lesser extent to the Dorne story as well (there the important things happen after the Myrcella plot fails). And Euron is really only introduced properly in 'The Reaver', so there should have been at least another chapter to show us more about him and his personality. That is, if he is really going to be important. If he does not go with Victarion, there will be no Greyjoy POV left to show us what he is doing. And I'm pretty sure that there will not be any Euron chapters...

While I agree that Aeron's chapters have seemed somewhat irrelevant to the story.. that comes with an important caveat: *so far*.

I think your take on the flow of the story is perceptive but also I think you're making too many assumptions. For all we know Aeron becomes really important to the fight vs. the Others or perhaps he helps allies with Dany to take down Euron (that seems far fetched as hell but it's just off the top of my head).

The same could be said of the Ironborn overall. Maybe George is just getting too epic, but maybe they wind up being vital.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The number of POV characters does not matter as long as their chapters move the plot forward. :huh:

I agree. And I'd add that too many people take the fact that, say, Arys Oakheart has a POV chapter as a statement that Arys must be an important character, and then get disappointed when Arys doesn't do much except die. That's a little odd because we understand that the prologue and epilogue characters aren't themselves terribly important, except as vehicles to push forward an important storyline. Maester Cressen isn't important himself; he just introduces the characters of Stannis and Melisandre in a particular fashion that serves the story going forward. Arys and Aeron Greyjoy are the same.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The number of different PoVs is largely irrelevent, if they all move the story formward. Three Greyjoy PoVs is fine, since each one of them will be relating events in different parts of the world.

Further, so called "minor" PoVs DO move the stories of the "major" PoVs forward, they just don't do it from the viewpoint of said major characters. So to kvetch about having too many Greyjoy PoVs and this meaning there are not enough Dany PoVs is daft. Skipping PoVs because one doesn't like them also seems pointless.

Feel free to suggest to GRRM at the next book signing that the entire story is written from the PoV of four major PoVs. Dany for Essos, Bran, Jon, and one other? Yeah, that would be a MUCH better series :rolleyes:

People just aren't happy unless they are complaining, I guess.

I'd have agreed if the writer was someone else. With GRRM, however, the characters were not supposed to be just devices to tell the story. In GoT, aCoK and aSoS each of them had his own story arc that was as engaging (some more than other) as the story as a whole. For GRRM every character is supposed to be the hero of his own story. More PoVs translate to more personal story lines and, with the number of chapters being limited, for some characters that translates to much shorter story lines than they would have had if there waren't so many PoVs. It's not only about the story, it's about the characters themselves.

For me, the Greyjoys don't work. GRRM developed them as much as he could, I acknowledge that. But the simple truth is, I don't care about them. I find them boring and there's just nothing about them that makes me sympathize with their cause. Sorry if my complaints annoy you, but those are chapters I'm honestly going to force myself to read, so I'm not happy about them being so many. If you don't have the same problem, very good for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More PoVs translate to more personal story lines and, with the number of chapters being limited, for some characters that translates to much shorter story lines than they would have had if there waren't so many PoVs.

I'm not aware of any storyline that I think has been truncated because GRRM had to service so many POVs. Arya and Sansa are largely in background in AFFC because their story isn't as active, not because Aeron Greyjoy got two POV chapters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Discord about the Grejoy chapters, and to a lesser extent, the Martell chapters, seems more a taste issue despite efforts to mask any such criticism as something interrelated with the mechanism of the story and the structure of the series. After all, it would be difficult to label the Greyjoys and Martell chapters as particularly unnecessary without applying that label to a good amount of the Lannister POVs as well. It's not as if having half a dozen Tyrion and Shae sex scenes advanced the main story all that much, and all the psycho babble between Cersei and Jaime, while highly entertaining and important to the two principles, will not prove especially crucial either, certainly not in comparison to the Jon and Daenerys POVs, or even the Stark POVs. And as Peter Dyckman-Campbell noted above, there is nothing wrong with readers being disenchanted with aspects of the series on the simple basis that they find the Grejoys and/or the Martells boring.

One other point: If the Grejoys continue receive such prominent placement in the series, and this seems to be the case going into the future -- with Aeron set to appear in the next book and the Grejoy siblings still running wild in the North -- then maybe they will prove more significant than one would assume on face value alone. If we were not given a Tyrell POV, there must be a reason for that as well -- the most likely being that the Tyrells, for all their manpower, are not all that important when it comes down to it. That said, reader expectations should be adjusted accordingly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not aware of any storyline that I think has been truncated because GRRM had to service so many POVs. Arya and Sansa are largely in background in AFFC because their story isn't as active, not because Aeron Greyjoy got two POV chapters.

Until now, GRRM devoted pages to delving into the character's mind and revealing more information about his/her personality, background and motivations. We had time to grow attached to those characters, to get to know them from different viewpoints, to care for them.

With 15+ characters, it's almost impossible to devote so much attention (and pages) to every character. That's what I felt was lost in aFfC (excluding the chapters of Jaime, Cersei, Arya, Sansa and, boring though she still was, Brienne). The rest felt at though they were there to tell the story - to see the events and explain why they are happening the way they are.

edit: though I'm not sure about Brienne. I've honestly read any of her chapters only once - the first time around. It was years ago and I don't remember them very well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Until now, GRRM devoted pages to delving into the character's mind and revealing more information about his/her personality, background and motivations. We had time to grow attached to those characters, to get to know them from different viewpoints, to care for them.

I don't think that's changed. There are several POV characters in Dorne, but two main players: Arianne, and to a lesser extent, Doran. We get a lot about their personality, background, and motivations, even when the POV character is somebody else. The same thing is true in the Iron Islands; there, GRRM is primarily interested in the three claimants to the throne and their different personalities, agendas, etc., and even when the POV character is Aeron what he's thinking about most of the time is Euron, or Victarion, or Asha.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do think cuts are coming. So the problem of having too many POVs -- if there ever was one -- shouldn't be a long term concern. Brienne, Davos, Areo, Barristan, and Victarion do not look to have long futures, certainly not as POVs. And all the Grejoys left will probably melt into one POV eventually (my bet being Theon). Other characters should start combining into a rotation as well (i.e., Daenerys/Tyrion). And Jaime and Cersei will probably disappear eventually as well -- although, not any time soon, it seems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do think cuts are coming. So the problem of having too many POVs -- if there ever was one -- shouldn't be a long term concern. Brienne, Davos, Areo, Barristan, and Victarion do not look to have long futures, certainly not as POVs. And all the Grejoys left will probably melt into one POV eventually (my bet being Theon). Other characters should start combining into a rotation as well (i.e., Daenerys/Tyrion). And Jaime and Cersei will probably disappear eventually as well -- although, not any time soon, it seems.

I get the same feeling.

Actually, I knew that Davos was only a minor character from his very first PoV chapter. It was clear that he was there just to tell the story of Stannis. The difference between major and minor characters, for me, is felt in the way GRRM writes them (duh). For some (such as Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Arya, Jaime, Bran) there are pages and pages devoted only to their personal development as characters. The culminations in those chapters are the changes that the characters undergo (some new idea, skill, decision, etc). They hardly move the story forward, but they are important for the characters as people, and probably would explain some of their actions later in the story. They give you the feeling that those people matter, their personal strengths and weaknesses matter.

The minor characters are there to throw light on the whys and the whats of certain plot developments, but they are not that important as people.

aFfC had too many minor PoV characters for my personal taste.

That said (I'm being bluntly honest here), I can't really put my finger on the reason why I didn't care for more than half of the PoV characters in aFfC. I'm just trying to analyze and to come up with a reason and an explanation, but it's probably futile.

I just hope that GRRM has an explanation (and a solution), so aDwD resembles the first three books and not aFfC.

Either way, aDwD having 15 PoV characters sounds a bit too much as if GRRM is taking the same approach to the story he took in aFfC and that doesn't sound good, to me at least.

I'll just wait and read, I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PDC,

I have to disagree with your assessment that it was necessary for GRRM and the story to show us the Kingsmoot to make us readers believe that Euron sits now securely on the Seastone Chair.

That's mostly due to the fact that both Stannis and Robb are just speculating about the infighting about the infighting among the krakens. They could not be sure about that, and the fact that Euron drowned Lord Botley was a very important sign that Euron was willing to do anything to press his rightful claim as eldest surviving brother of Balon Greyjoy.

With Theon being in the hands of their enemies or already dead, Euron was next in line, and I'm pretty sure that he'd have become King/Lord even in the green lands in a similar situation, as it would be a sign of weakness to declare a hostage King, and name his uncle only his Regent. Especially when dealing with guys like the Boltons who would most likely return said King in a rather un-kingly fashion, which would made his rule a catastrophe.

Neither Stannis nor Robb talk about a Kingsmoot, and is essentially Aeron who gets to Ironborn to revive this ancient tradition. Stannis and Robb could only assume that Theon would press his rightful claim, and Victarion might decide to rebel against his brother. But they gave no real reason why the latter should do this. And Victarion also only ends up pressing his only claim when there is a Kingsmoot. Had there been none, he would have served Euron, as he had served Balon because that's what he was trained to do.

Anyway, neither Stannis nor Robb did foresee a Kingsmoot in AFfC, so we as readers had no clue that such a thing might happening. And only the Kingsmoot did or seemed to threaten Euron's Kingship. So technically, ASoS gives us no reason to believe that Euron's Crow's Eye might not remain where he was when we first heard about him: on the Seastone Chair.

As to the future role of the Ironborn, especially the role of Aeron:

They have not been set up properly in AFfC. Arianne has, and that's a reason why the Dorne chapters are essentially not irrelevant in AFfC. She is going to support her father's Targaryen plan wholeheartedly after her last chapter in my opinion. Everything else would be a huge surprise, especially as she still and always very much loved her father.

GRRM could have given us clues about Euron's, Aeron's or Victarion's later roles, but I dare only speculate about Victarion. And he could become an honest and loyal lieutenant of Daenerys, but also a guy who tries to abduct and rape her. Euron is a complete wild card, nearly as much as Darkstar, and Aeron is completely redundant in my opinion. If he was supposed to play an important role in matters concerning not just the Iron Islands, AFfC would have been the book to point us toward this role. But I admit it, I can't see a guy with Aeron's world view play an important role in the War for Dawn, even more so, if he still hangs around on the Iron Islands, and as far as we know he still is there.

As to Tyrion's Shae-chapters in ASoS, I really consider them to be an important part of the plot, as Tyrion's Shae obsession is actively kept alive and fueled by Varys to use her and it in the end to drive a rift between Tyrion and his family. Jaime and Cersei are core characters of AFfC - one could argue that Brienne was redundant as a POV, and I tend to agree considering the overall story, but ADwD and the question if she is going to survive is going to decide this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That said (I'm being bluntly honest here), I can't really put my finger on the reason why I didn't care for more than half of the PoV characters in aFfC. I'm just trying to analyze and to come up with a reason and an explanation, but it's probably futile. I just hope that GRRM has an explanation (and a solution), so aDwD resembles the first three books and not aFfC.Either way, aDwD having 15 PoV characters sounds a bit too much as if GRRM is taking the same approach to the story he took in aFfC and that doesn't sound good, to me at least.I'll just wait and read, I guess.

I don't think there is much mystery to simply not enjoying some of the characters. My own theory as to why AFfC seems to be less popular than the other books in the series among a fair portion of readers is that Jon, Daenerys and Tyrion do not feature. They're the bedrock of the first three books, and the series as a whole, and them not being there I think left a lot of readers disorientated. All of this undoubtedly amplified by the fact that AFfC was the only book we got in the past 11 years.

As for ADwD and the issue of it having too many POVs, my take on that is this: It will read different than the first three books but it won't be AFfC either. Davos, Asha, Victarion, Quentyn, Barristan, Melisandre, and Varamyr might all be one-chapter-and-done deals. If I remember correctly, Arya only has two chapters, and I doubt either Cersei or Theon will have more than that, if they even have more than one each. So the core of the book looks to be a lot of Daenerys, quite a bit of Tyrion and Jon, and some Bran.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So technically, ASoS gives us no reason to believe that Euron's Crow's Eye might not remain where he was when we first heard about him: on the Seastone Chair.

Having agreed that (1) we were told in ASOS that the succession was being contested by powerful forces in the Iron Islands; and (2) that turned out to be the case, this conclusion is a complete non sequitur. It doesn't matter if Robb knew about the possibility of a kingsmoot, because we know that he was right that Victarion and Asha would want to contend for the throne, and that they spoke for powerful forces in the Iron Islands. You can throw up whatever smoke and mirrors that you want, but the quotes speak for themselves.

GRRM could have given us clues about Euron's, Aeron's or Victarion's later roles, but I dare only speculate about Victarion.

I agree, we don't know exactly what the ironborn are going to do in ADWD and going forward. But it's silly to think that a story is irrelevant just because you don't know what's going to happen next.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am excited about getting a Barristan POV. I do agree his chapters will be a lot like Ned's or Davos', but I always enjoyed those parts, and we're not getting any more Ned chapters and it seems like there's only going to be a little bit for Davos.

I am also not thrilled about so many Greyjoys since I also don't really like them and have yet to find any of them very compelling. On the other hand, I thought the Lannisters (other than Tyrion) were mostly pretty flat until there were a bunch of Jaime chapters.

I really would have liked another Essos POV, particularly a non-noble, maybe someone like Jhiqui or Missandei.

Maybe for the last book GRRM will cut all the POV characters and it will just be alternating chapters of Littlefinger and Varys and they will explain everything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love the idea of Barristan getting a POV. I think that the choice of Barristan and Melisandre as PoVs is excellent and indicative of GRRM's hope of finishing the series in 7 books. These two characters are capable of filling in a number of blanks (whether from the backstory [barristan] or from the more magically influenced side of the story [Melisandre]), which I think is really necessary at this point.

I hope that we get a lot of information on Aerys' reign from Barristan - not to mention a flashback to the battle at the Trident would be awesome. It would be nice to get a flashback of young Robert. What does he know of Lyanna Stark? Could we get some significant clues in regards to Jon's parentage and the Tower of Joy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to admit I'm not so excited about a Barristan POV... First of all the fact that he knows A LOT of stuff about the rebellion and Aerys and all the Targ history doesn't mean that we will discover more about it... I mean, Barristan won't pass his time thinking to the past, but doing actions in the present. Secondly, another POV in Mereen seems too much for me (Tyrion, Victarion, Quentyn, Dany, Barristan).

I also fear that there are too many POVs, I prefer when at the beginning there where much less (like in AGOT) with one POV in each location (The Wall, KL, etc).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Too many POVs around Meeren: Tyrion, Victarion, Quentyn, Dany, and now Barristan.

Do we should expect a treatment of the "meerenese knot" (whatever it means) in a way like the blackwater battle does (switching from a POV to another) but in a bigger scale?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PDC,

I have to disagree with your assessment that it was necessary for GRRM and the story to show us the Kingsmoot to make us readers believe that Euron sits now securely on the Seastone Chair.

And we needed to get inside the heads of Asha AND Victarion AND Auron AND Theon to clue us in on these characters and their situation? Well blimey, one must wonder how other writers and pre-AFFC Martin ever got anything done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also fear that there are too many POVs, I prefer when at the beginning there where much less (like in AGOT) with one POV in each location (The Wall, KL, etc).

I don't think this is entirely accurate. At some point or another, there were four POVs in King's Landing during AGoT (i.e., Ned, Arya, Sansa, and Catelyn).

Too many POVs around Meeren: Tyrion, Victarion, Quentyn, Dany, and now Barristan.Do we should expect a treatment of the "meerenese knot" (whatever it means) in a way like the blackwater battle does (switching from a POV to another) but in a bigger scale?

While there are quite a bit of POVs in Meereen, I question how prevalent they will be. It might be that Victarion and Quentyn only have one POV each and that they will both occur before they even get to Meereen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×