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[SPOILERS] New POV Revealed


Ran

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Just to say, I'm with Harry on this. I do not see what kind of chain of logic leads from "fewer Greyjoy chapters I dislike" to "more chapters I like".
It's not empirical. I don't think that GRRM wrote fewer of the chapters I like to fit in the ones I do. It's a feeling. Like I explained above, every chapter that was the Greyjoys took me away from the main story. It's a lot like Dany. It doesn't help matters that we jump between three different PoVs, so any real empathy I have for these guys gets diluted and made a bit unimportant; while Davos and Theon were both new PoVs that were 'away' from the action (though they meshed with the other PoVs nicely at times) they at least had a number of chapters devoted to them and both had a story arc. The Greyjoys...don't really.

Perhaps that's why I like the Dorne parts better; it's somewhat touching the other characters (through the Arys/Myrcella link) and it's a nice tight tale. The kingsmoot really isn't, at least not for me.

And while it's likely not the case that GRRM could have fit in more chapters of characters I did like, I think it would have worked better as some subtale or another book that came out elsewhere. Maybe it would have helped some. Maybe removing it would have sped up AFFC and ADWD.

Or maybe the PoV system is just losing its appeal. It's clear that GRRM needs to have certain PoVs to actually witness or participate in events that are important, and it's becoming increasingly harder to do that. Having a 3rd person narrative might not suck.

"Well, that's me done" since one presumes all the other POVs are left off at a point that he's pleased to leave them off at.
And ya know, I think I'd be totally fine with that. I'm sure others differ. I was already close to that with Dany's tale, and I dont' think I'd feel bad about the greyjoys not being in AFFC or ADWD other than being witnessed. I don't care about Victarion and barely care about Asha except as villains, and they're not that interesting villains to me. I'm curious how Dany handles them at the end of the day, but I don't need their thought processes any more than I needed Tywin's.
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It's not empirical. I don't think that GRRM wrote fewer of the chapters I like to fit in the ones I do. It's a feeling. Like I explained above, every chapter that was the Greyjoys took me away from the main story. It's a lot like Dany . . .

I read this so often but the thought always goes unexplained. What is the main story? How can Daenerys not be part of the main story?

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I'd look at it like a meal. Some people want the buffet, other want a seven course meal, others would just like three courses, please... and some just want the cheeseburger.

Some want every aspect of the story, some just want an expansive, epic meal, others would prefer a story that's more narrowly focused than that, and others would be glad if the story was really just focused on <political turmoil in the south|frozen zombies in the North|dragon girl in the east>. No real way to cater to all palates.

It'd be an interesting experiment to hand a newbie an e-book with all the chapters a person doesn't like removed, on the theory that they're not really needed and just a distraction, and see how it works. Just thinking about it, AFfC would probably seem a little weird when, "WTF, the ironborn are attacking all over the place, directly leading to the ugly storming of Dragonstone and Loras Tyrell's probable death?" whereas the Dornish stuff won't be missed at all (but may be in ADwD, depending on where it all goes there.)

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Count me as one that wants the whole meal, and have come back to the restaurant about 12 times now. I have reread the first for books over ten times at least, listened on audio book multiple times, read the Dunk and Egg stories about 6 times in book form and the 2 graphic novels more times than I can think off.

Not once have I skipped a chapter, I don't see the point in it. If I am going to take the time to read the story I am going to do just that. Even if I don't care about the Brienne chapters until the fights towards the end of Feast. Or Cersie and her idiotic plotting. It's part of the story so I read it, and I actually enjoy the Ironborn and Dornish chapters of Feast the most outside of Jamie's chapters.

It all fits for a reason, which until the series is done none of us really know. Bashing GRRM for putting in new POVS that you can't see a point in is like calling the chef an idiot for his choice of the 2nd course of a 7 course meal after one bite.

Wait and see what happens, if in the end there really was no point then bitch about it. The Ironborn will serve a purpose, so will/has Brienne, and every other character he takes the time to write about, I promise you, even if I can't say what the purpose is until I'm done with desert.

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On the first page Werthead lists Theon as a pov and adds "aka Reek".

I don't get that. IIRC Reek a serving man of The Bastard who was killed by men who thought he was the Bastard. Later there was a "Reek" seen at Winterfell who turned out to be the Bastard in disguise.

Why is Theon the new Reek? Is that just a cover because the Boltons want his real identity kept secret?

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On the first page Werthead lists Theon as a pov and adds "aka Reek".

I don't get that. IIRC Reek a serving man of The Bastard who was killed by men who thought he was the Bastard. Later there was a "Reek" seen at Winterfell who turned out to be the Bastard in disguise.

Why is Theon the new Reek? Is that just a cover because the Boltons want his real identity kept secret?

there is a sample chapter available that should be stickied in this forum that shows Theon as Reek that explains it. Essentially yes, the Boltons are calling him Reek now since Ramsay captured him in Clash.

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I'd look at it like a meal. Some people want the buffet, other want a seven course meal, others would just like three courses, please... and some just want the cheeseburger.
Okay. I'd look at it as a meal where some of the dishes aren't all that appealing. Some people feel like they have to eat every single piece of every single course because they're friends with the chef. Others love one part of the big course and will happily eat the whole thing just to get their favorite part; they'll eat their veggies to get to dessert.

I guess at this point I've lost the trust I had in GRRM's writing. One of the things that I really loved about AGOT was that everything felt very tight and to the point; the only narrative was Dany's that felt a bit odd, but even then I got why we were seeing it. Since then - and especially with AFFC - I don't see the need for so many things. Some I enjoy more than others; I like Jaime's chapters though they're not super important to the rest of the plot, I like Sam's few chapters and PoV. And others...I just don't see the need for. I don't like the characters, I don't like the part of the world they're viewing, and most importantly I don't see the tie in. Why are the Ironborn at all important? Why are they even in existence any more? Their gaining importance feels so contrived to me, and that bugs.

I do love the world, and I do love reading Dunk & Egg (even if the quality of the story isn't the best). But for me things like Dunk & Egg are a bit more forgiveable, because I know they're not the 'main story'. They're a sidetale. They help me understand parts and add more history but I don't need them to get the main tale. And that's how I feel about the Greyjoys. They feel like this sidetale that's nice in a side tale, but feels odd being thrown in with the rest of the story. It's like watching a TV show and then seeing the special mini-webisodes on the website. Yes, they're canon and have some of the main actors, and yes things happen in them - but the production values are lower, the characters we're following aren't the a-list stars, and you could skip it entirely and not miss anything for the plot.

I'm glad you enjoy every aspect of the meal from start to finish, Ran. I hope you'll not be too condescending for those whose palate is different than yours.

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I'm with Ran and Harry here. The Ironborn chapters (and a few others in AFFC in particular) don't do much in terms of advancing the plot, but they add a depth and richness to the story. The Arya chapters could have easily been condensed into one "plot" chapter, but the added detail made her experience (and the house of black and white) far more interesting.

I suspect the purpose of the ironborn chapters was twofold: to establish Euron as king, and to get the Iron Fleet to Slavers Bay. Sure, Victqrion could have just shown up there, but knowing some of the backstory makes it much more interesting and believable.

Plus, the Ironborn chapters would not have seemed so bad if they were scattered throughout a complete 4th book featuring Tyrion, Dany and Jon as well.

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Plus, the Ironborn chapters would not have seemed so bad if they were scattered throughout a complete 4th book featuring Tyrion, Dany and Jon as well.

Thank you Crow's Eye! I was thinking this before going to bed but was too tired to make it sensical.

Kalbear, you do realize that there are only 5 Ironborn chapters in AFFC right? That's out of 46 total chapters. When you combine those 5 chapters with the maybe 10 or so that Asha, Theon & Vic will have in ADWD (rough estimate I know) you have 15 total chapters out of what... 119 or so chapters.

The majority of those being about Theon, an already developed character that will provide a critical view into the happenings in the North.

Then we have the Asha chapters, which will add more insight into other areas of the North and the direction of the Ironborn leadership she is trying to instate. Which from her ideas at the Kingsmoot would pull them away from their reaving/viking ways that I believe you don't like and is why you don't connect with them.

Then we have the Vic chapters which will show the trip to Dany... Very critical to the overall story.

So, you still feel like 5 chapters to set up three major plotlines in the continuing story are worthless? If so that's fine, but let me just say I disagree with you completely.

EDIT: by the way, the reaving has been going on since ACOK, so saying that the Ironborn storyline is new and contrived is completely false. Its been around since before Balon's death, the new POVS just pick up the story so we aren't left saying "weren't the Ironborn invading the North... What ever happened to that?"

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I get the complaints about so much 'unnecessary stuff' in AFFC, because that has been my complaint as well. I can see why this complaint is levelled at the Greyjoys, but the difference comes down to taste, as Sualk already posted a two thread pages back. But at least Kalbear is being upfront about it and not masking it as a structural flaw ( and even if he and others do masque their dislike of Dorne, Brienne and the Greyjoys as real criticism of the story structure, I am certainly not convinced they are wrong).

The only difference for me is that I quite enjoyed the Greyjoy chapters, so I'm not complaining, they're a cool culture. I can also see how they are a group of characters whose role might be more pivotal than they seemed initially. They seemed to be side characaters to what Kal and many of us see as the main story. But I liked reading about the Kingsmoot, and about Euron, Victarion etc. Similarly, in Dorne, GRRM has again succeeded in deepening some interesting characters.

None of that takes away from the fact that like Kalbear, I feel all these are sidestories from the central tale, and my deep disappointment with AFFC is more for what it all leaves out, then for what it does show. With two exceptions; I quite enjoyed the Irons Islands and Dorne in AFFC, but the surprising multitude of staggeringly boring Brienne chapters did my head in. And then on top of that, the queen of POV's in this book is Cersei, and she came of as the second worst character of the book for me. If people are arguing, "why in the world was this included in AFFC" , never do I sympathize more than when I think of the 10 Brienne chapters, chasing wild geese across Westeros. In terms of structure, it did seem as if Martin lost the plot somewhat in AFFC, and he did find writing it "a bitch". The actual writing though, that still hasn't lost it's sparkle , and that is why hopes for ADWD are understandbly high.

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Once again, Feast is half of the story that will be completed in Dance.

Every character and storyline that isn't Jon, Dany and Tyrion is outside the central storyline the way it sounds some people look at it. If we only had a book based on those 3 it wouldn't be nearly as great a tale.

For example... Sam, Sansa, Arya, Stannis, Davos, Jamie, Brienne, Cersie, Theon, Asha, Vic, Edmure, Mormont, Mel, Quentyn, Arienne, Renly, Margery, Loras, Sandor, Gregor, Catelyn, Lysa, Littlefinger, Doran, Oberyn, Mance, Halfhand, Bronn and so on and so forth are all side characters that add to the main story. Its been that way since the end of AGOT when all the POVS were finally heading their separate ways.

I just don't get why its hard to see that without the little people and secondary stories the overall story would suffer.

Oh well I guess, I'll just keep on reading and enjoying the story for what it is instead of wishing it was something else.

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I just don't get why its hard to see that without the little people and secondary stories the overall story would suffer

It depends on how well characterized those other, secondary characters are, and what their story brings to the table.

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I think it would have worked better as some subtale or another book that came out elsewhere.

I don't think this is a good idea. Erikson has gotten a lot of criticism for handing off major characters and storylines from his core series to another author, or delaying them to the sequel trilogy (which itself is many years off due to the need to do this prequel trilogy first). GRRM not explaining the ironborn developments in the core series and leaving it to a later side-novel would really not work since, as Ran says, readers would be left wondering WTF was going on when they turn up with a major role to play in AFFC and ADWD.

Dunk and Egg work as they are completely unrelated to the core ASoIaF storyline, so expanding on them in novellas is appropriate. Returning to the Erikson comparison, the Korbal Broach/Bauchelain side-novellas work because those characters are non-critical to the MBF itself. Of for another example, if Salladhor Saan never turns up in ASoIaF again and GRRM writes a side-novella about his further adventures, that's cool. If Saan plays a major role in the resolution of the series and we don't get any set-up for that in the core series, only some side-story written years later, that's lame.

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It depends on how well characterized those other, secondary characters are, and what their story brings to the table.

Very true, would you say Jamie was as fleshed out in AGOT a he is in ASOS? Or what about Bronn?

My main issue with the negativity from the new POVS is that they are new. Where you all questioning the reason for Theon as a POV in ACOK? Or Jamie in ASOS? To say they are worthless or pointless after 5 chapters, with little time for development seems unfair.

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My main issue with the negativity from the new POVS is that they are new. Where you all questioning the reason for Theon as a POV in ACOK? Or Jamie in ASOS? To say they are worthless or pointless after 5 chapters, with little time for development seems unfair.
Theon, no: he was important and interacted with other PoV characters directly in ACOK. And again, his tale was largely told in the ACOK story, or at least it had a good ending. With Jaime I liked his chapters but I wouldn't have been sad if they were cut, and actually mentioned cutting them earlier here. They didn't add a whole lot to the tale that Tyrion wouldn't have in KL, and all they really did was serve to set up Brienne's work, which was another not particularly relevant tale (though one I dearly loved) that apparently we'll not have a resolution on until the NEXT book, so it couldn't have been that important.

So, you still feel like 5 chapters to set up three major plotlines in the continuing story are worthless? If so that's fine, but let me just say I disagree with you completely.

No, I feel like the 5 chapters in AFFC were essentially worthless to the plot. I don't see us needing the kingsmoot, or Aeron's declaration of it. I don't see we need Victarion's tale about how his wife was taken from him in order to understand why he'd go off in search of Dany. I honestly don't think we need more setup of any of that for Dany's sake than Euron just showing up and telling us in flashbacks what he did - you know, just like he did at the kingsmoot.

Asha looking for Theon I guess needed a smidgen more setup, maybe. But I don't think that was well-served in her chapter with the Harlaws.

Finally, I don't see the chapters as worthless. I see them as fat. They do provide something, and it's often interesting. But it's also not needed to tell the story well, in my opinion. I don't need to know about Aeron's issues as a child or Victarion's problems in bed or Asha's prepubescent liasons. I don't need to know them better as characters, and that's the real problem with the PoV structure: while we get information about the world we also get a lot of creaking doorhinges.

And that works well when you're following that character for a while. It works less well when we get one chapter and that's it, because it's basically all setup and no payoff.

Ultimately I think that's why I'm more fine with Brienne and Jaime (and Cersei, except I hate those chapters) compared to the ironborn. If Asha was the PoV in all of Arms of the Kraken I'd probably be more fine with it. Same, really, with any of the other major characters - if we just had their one setup or more insight into a single one I'd probably be okay with it. But again - feels like a lot of setup.

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Very true, would you say Jamie was as fleshed out in AGOT a he is in ASOS? Or what about Bronn?

My main issue with the negativity from the new POVS is that they are new. Where you all questioning the reason for Theon as a POV in ACOK? Or Jamie in ASOS? To say they are worthless or pointless after 5 chapters, with little time for development seems unfair.

Good point. For all I know, Victarion could be a hugely interesting guy that can keep me entertained chapter after chapter after chapter. We'll probably never know. I would not be surprised if Victarion or Aeron only get 5~ chapters all told. They seem awfully replacable to me. I can't say I felt the same about Jaime.

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We will have to agree to disagree on the Ironborn issue it seems. I can see where you are coming from, but I don't agree with your feeling. You see the story as something central about a certain few characters, while I see it as a story about Westeros and the rest of the world. If there is something happening in one part of this world it affects the rest of the world. Like hurricanes from butterfly wings.

To me, The Prophet sets up the Kingsmoot, which hasn't happened in hundreds of years, which is significant.

The Kraken's Daughter shows us Asha, who becomes a POV and us somebody we have been seeing since ACOK, her reaction to the declaration of the Kingsmoot and some of her personal history. It also shows her ideas of where the Ironborn should take the direction of the war, which will come into play in ADWD.

The Iron Captain shows us Vic, who becomes an important POV moving forward because of his journey to Dany. It shows us some of his backstory to fill him out and his interaction with Asha about her proposed alliance and peace making with the North.

The Drowned Man shows the actual Kingsmoot, which hasn't happened in hundreds of years, so it is significant, and overall is a very cool chapter showing many Ironborn, most importantly Euron, who wins and now has control of the largest fleet in all of Westeros, maybe the entire world... Something key to the overall story. Also, it gives us an understanding of why the Ironborn start attacking the Reach instead of the North. If the just showed up in the Reach off screen we would be left with questions to why, and backstory wouldn't have the same impact this chapter has, it would be worse without it.

The Reaver is just a badass chapter showing Vic kicking ass and taking names, and shows the very significant order from Euron to Vic to go find Dany and bring her back... And his thought process of doing just that, but for himself instead.

To me these are 5 chapters that lead into each other, which lead into the next book, the happenings in the North, the threat to strain the Tyrell/Lannister alliance, and the journey of one if the largest fleets in the world going to Dany, which is something that is very important to the overall story.

Like the set up in AGOT for the events of ACOK and ASOS, the set up in AFFC, and continued in ADWD will be necessary for understanding clearly the progression in TWOW and ADOS.

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My main issue with the negativity from the new POVS is that they are new. Where you all questioning the reason for Theon as a POV in ACOK? Or Jamie in ASOS? To say they are worthless or pointless after 5 chapters, with little time for development seems unfair.

I think this is exactly what many people are fearing: that, well into the middlegame of the series, new characters are being introduced and either tossed away again quickly or, even worse for many, given "time for development" - while those readers (I used to be among them) feel that by now we should know all the players, should have seen them being brought into position and now witness them being let loose on each other in a somehow controlled fashion. That's why I think you cannot really compare Theon and Jamie to Victarion and Euron: Both Theon and Jamie were (would-be) players from very early on, Euron comes very close to an "evil deus ex machina" when you just look at it from the "beginning, middle and end" point of view of classical drama. I think people don't so much mind old characters becoming POVs, but new key players coming to the game this late.

However, ASOIAF is not that kind of nicely focused drama or game of chess any more, if it ever was. It is a full-featured portrait of a quasi-medieval society. I love it that the rise of the faith became a topic in Feast, I'm pretty sure I'll love it when disease becomes a topic in Dance. Like I loved how education became a topic in the Wire in season 4.

And, just as the topics expand, so does the cast, like it or not. In such a world there is no beginning and end, and no fixed set of players. This IMO is also the reason why Feast improves on re-reading and even more so (I find) when you re-read the Dorne and Ironborn chapters thematically grouped: it's easier to focus away from whatever you think was the "main" plot (Lannister vs Stark, Ice vs Fire, Arya vs the world) and engage with another facet of this world and some people who are the heroes in their own story. (I hope that at some point I will also come to love the "Others" storyline which I hated since the GOT prologue.)

That said, I nevertheless hope that Dance will provide a little more focus than Feast and some healthy (and satisfyingly shocking) reduction of the cast!

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However, ASOIAF is not that kind of nicely focused drama or game of chess any more, if it ever was. It is a full-featured portrait of a quasi-medieval society. I love it that the rise of the faith became a topic in Feast, I'm pretty sure I'll love it when disease becomes a topic in Dance. Like I loved how education became a topic in the Wire in season 4.

And, just as the topics expand, so does the cast, like it or not. In such a world there is no beginning and end, and no fixed set of players. This IMO is also the reason why Feast improves on re-reading and even more so (I find) when you re-read the Dorne and Ironborn chapters thematically grouped: it's easier to focus away from whatever you think was the "main" plot (Lannister vs Stark, Ice vs Fire, Arya vs the world) and engage with another facet of this world and some people who are the heroes in their own story.

This way of looking at things sums up my own view very nicely.

I read and reread ASOIAF as much to explore that world as I do to "find out what happens next". I love Martin's creation of a world that, IMO, seems to extend believably and fully formed in every direction, beyond what gets shown on screen. The excellent characterisation and clever, multifaceted plotting are the other two elements that together make this my favourite novel series.

Do I want to know how the story begun in AGOT ends? Absolutely. But I'm sure as hell going to enjoy the ride on the way there, scenic detours included.

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