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[BOOK SPOILERS] EP105 Discussion


Ran

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Another thing that pisses me off about the way that the swordsmen fight is that every blow is too heavy. One of the best moves in the show was Bronn's block and counter to the neck that he did when the Hilltribes attacked, simply because it was one of the only instances in the show where the fighters down overcommit to every attack. They're fighting with swords, not axes, why is every attack a chop? Can't they stab or slice at least once?

^There's an example of some german renessaince longsword techniques.

I agree as regards overcommitment.

And yeah, those Arma guys are very good. They do a lot of research, use the original fencing books - and their moves look far better, faster and, of course, believable than any modern choreography in my opinion.

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I wonder just what people think Loras should look like? I'm getting the sense that some think he ought to be all rippling muscles and stuff. That's... that's not Loras from the book.
Something like Manny Pacquiao, Ran. Someone that isn't particularly big but has some definite muscle mass and strength. You build up a fair amount of muscle mass wearing 80 pounds of armor regardless of what you do with it.
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I don't know, I thought the fight scene was the weakest scene there. So far, they haven't really shown Jaime being dominant in combat. Ned was in leathers, would it have been too much for him to have gotten a few cuts on him that would have been lethal but weren't because of the armor? Jamie just comes across as Prince Charming, not the best swordsman in Westeros.

Sandor's duck of Gregor's sword, for instance, showed a lot of control in that fight. Having Jaime not ever parry Ned because he's got the timing and distance of Ned's swings would be great. He could always be just leaning back out of distance or slightly deflecting Ned's blade, while Ned could be making wild parries and strikes. I'm not saying make Jaime some kind of kung fu master, but looking at some movies like that for examples of how you can have a fight that clearly shows someone toying with someone else. So far, I haven't been engaged in any fight. It looks like two kids bashing each other with sticks.

Here's hoping Bronn vs. Ser Vardis is better! (And whoever does the choreography for the Gregor-Oberyn match had better be brilliant, because that was one of the best written fights I've read)

edit: Since someone brought it up: Yeah, the entire series has had pretty bad fights from a dueling perspective, but then, nobody's got it right so far. I used to be an ARMA member before switching to Olympic sport fencing. They keep doing all these hard blocks that you really never should do, just because that doesn't gain you any advantage. Stopping your opponent's blade just protects you, redirecting it protects you just as well and gives you openings to counterattack. (It also looks a lot cooler, which is why I'm baffled that they aren't in movies. An Ochs guard looks badass and is really effective, plus can be used as a reactive parry leading to a quick stab. Hell, it'd be a good way to differentiate who's good and who isn't. Have the good swordsmen using good techniques, which are quick, fast, and brutal, while have the untrained ones hack at each other like they currently do. I can dream.

Non-fight-chat:

I thought Cersei-Robert was amazingly acted. They're humanizing Cersei a lot, which I think is a good thing. When I read the books, because of the limited perspective, she came across as very much a pure antagonist. Good scene, amazingly acted, and shows, really well, how important Lyanna was to everyone. (Also, makes me even more confident that R+L=J)

I'll say that I'm incredibly impressed with the acting in the show so far. Some absolutely stellar performances all around.

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IMHO, in reality fights were decided quite kick. One or two wrong movies and you´re dead. The whole Hollywood long duels is a bit fantastic for me to believe.

The only time you had long fights was when the oponents were armored. Yet even with full plate they had the warhammer and other blunt weapons that could kill a full armored warrior in one strike. A straight spear thrust to a ringmail armored warrior could be his doom.

Of course battles are more chaotic and you need as much armor as you can to hold against stray arrows, projectiles and weak strikes, but in a duel its mostly about not making mistakes. That is why Bronn won.

Also, a good spear is a very balanced weapons and wasnt heavier than 1.5 kg or 2 kg. That isnt a lot and someone who practices with it many hours every dayn since childhood doesnt consider it heavier than a glove. The way almost every strike in choreografic fights feels heavy doesnt look real at all.

Anyway, Ned and Jaime fight was pretty good, too bad Jory´s death didnt had nearly the same impact as in the book. The book is way more dramatic with Ned trying to save his man and a brief acount of how each of them tried to flee or save everyone else. Ned holding Jory was also powerfull.

About Cercei: She is going to be the main actress of season 2, with Ned´s death. I mean, they need to make her more likeable.

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Loved the episode. Finally some action, and less exposition. :)

The added scenes were great. If there is one area that complaints cannot be made, it's in the quality of the acting.

The major complaint I have of this episode is the scene between Renly and Loras, for a number of reasons. First, Loras is too thin and too soft to be a trained Knight. My biggest complaint however, is the fact that they are portraying Renly as effeminate as they are. Yes, Renly was gay and a dandy, but he certainly was never that stereotypical "girly" gay guy squealing at the sight of blood.

Overall great stuff. Hopefully the exposition heavy stuff is behind us, and we can get to the meat of the story.

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I'm not an expert, but you have to keep in mind that stage fighting is not in any way a historically accurate depiction of one-on-one fencing and grappling as it was done in high-medieval times and the early renaissance. Such fighting has, as far as I know, never been shown in a big budget film or television series (though there were some commendable hints at it in Ridley Scott's Kingdom of Heaven). Thus, you can never assert whether someone has 'the better' technique' - there just isn't any real technique. ;)

Keeping that in mind, I think that the fights in Game of Thrones so far have been decent but not great. They look a little bit heavy-handed, in my opinion. And I don't like some of Mr Reeves' decisions. What I find especially grating are the more pointless 'looking cool' moves he put in there for no apparent reason (for example, the 360° turns are mostly ridiculous and serve no real purpose in those situations). On the other hand, Jaime's stab at Jory was very well done, since that kind of close-quarters fighting actually was an integral part of a knight's (or any armoured swordfighter's) combat skills.

I would disagree. Although I have no experience in medieval sword fighting I am a pretty successful martial artist (which makes me think that I know quite a bit about proper technique in both striking and grappling) and I'm quite sure you can draw a strong parallel between sword fighting and unarmed fighting in movies and on TV. You rarely see unarmed fights in movies that are realistic when people know what they are doing but you can definitely see which of them that have great technique because while they aren't doing everything that would take place (mostly the things that don't look flashy or cool), the things they are doing are still things taught to be done in a certain way. The same should go for sword fighting. While they are only using parts of the proper fighting style I'd say that you can still see if people are using proper techniques, and which characters that are shown as superior.

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Varys/Littlefinger was very interesting. Especially since we know they're the two biggest players in the series.

Actually liked the Cersei/Robert scene(sue me). The way they're portraying Cersei makes me want to like her, but I just can't do it.

Hell of a scene in the Mountains of the Moon. Can't wait for Shagga, Timmett and the others. Plus, Bronn=hella badass.

Fight scene was really cool. While it wasn't straight from the books, I loved Jamie v. Ned. The look on Jamie's face when the guardsman put his spear through Ned's leg made me think of a kid who just got their favorite toy taken away from them.

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I would disagree. [snip] The same should go for sword fighting. While they are only using parts of the proper fighting style I'd say that you can still see if people are using proper techniques, and which characters that are shown as superior.

Bronn, so far, has been the only competent swordsman in the show, and that was in one action. They aren't taking anything from proper fighting styles.

Edit: Jaime owning Jory wasn't bad either.

Rob Roy did it pretty alright, incidentally.

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I haven't read through this whole big giant topic, because I don't have time, so I don't know if it's been mentioned or not, but here goes.

I've read the book, so I knew exactly what was coming, but still, it was kind of a surprise that they did it so explicitly. Did they really get a 10 year old kid to chill out on an adult woman's booby? O_o

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Jamie just comes across as Prince Charming, not the best swordsman in Westeros. Sandor's duck of Gregor's sword, for instance, showed a lot of control in that fight. Having Jaime not ever parry Ned because he's got the timing and distance of Ned's swings would be great. He could always be just leaning back out of distance or slightly deflecting Ned's blade, while Ned could be making wild parries and strikes. I'm not saying make Jaime some kind of kung fu master, but looking at some movies like that for examples of how you can have a fight that clearly shows someone toying with someone else.

I'm going to say it: Jaime should look like some kind of kung fu master. Jaime is without a doubt one of the best swordsmen in the kingdom. He's one of the last two of Aerys's Kingsgaurd. Ned on the other hand was a pub swordsman, competent, but not particularly brilliant. Jaime v Ned should look like Anderson Silva v Forrest Griffin.

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Bronn, so far, has been the only competent swordsman in the show, and that was in one action. They aren't taking anything from proper fighting styles.

Rob Roy did it pretty alright, incidentally.

As said I have no personal experience with sword fighting so I don't really know enough to comment but if every single slash is completely made up and differs from real sword fighting techniques, then I'd be extremely surprised. I saw a documentary where a professor that specializes in medieval warfare set up a mock battle and that wasn't completely different from what we saw here. Of course there were clear differences and the people fighting had only been given a crash course but there were still plenty of similarities in techniques.

And as for proper fighting styles, we don't know exactly how the medieval knights fought. We only have approximations made from the few fighting manuals that have survived but the experts say that they aren't enough to learn everything without a knowledgeable teacher. This part isn't really about the show, just putting "proper fighting styles" in context.

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Ned described Loras as "slender as a reed" even in his armor. Out of armor he thinks he looks even younger than 16.

The best scene was Varys and Littlefinger. Ah, to see how the real Game of Thrones is played. Move and countermove. I'm still shocked that LF knew about Varys and Illyrio. As I mentioned last night, LF boasted in the book that he didn't fear the Spider because he had dirt on him. I heavily suspect that the writers got this detail straight from George. It makes sense since Varys never ratted out LF even though he had to know LF was behind quite a bit.

So which Redwyne likes young boys? They say "Lord Redwyne" but in the book Paxter was at the Arbor. Bad Horror or Slobber.

Sounded like it was a "Ser Merlon (sp?) of Tumblestone" who liked amputees. ew.

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Loras was definitely too skinny. I don't see how he even holds the lance. A body type similar to Renly's would have been better. The slurping sounds were too much. Yeah, you're sucking his penis, we get it.

I would have enjoyed more of the Vale trip, particularly when Tyrion in the turnip basket. Great episode overall.

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