[BOOK SPOILERS] Episode 105 discussion

[alguien]

Ned is fighting for the lives of his men, Jaime has specifically stated that he wants Ned taken, not killed.

Ned is flailing like a lunatic, Jaime is parrying and dancing around.

Ned is winded, Jaime is smiling.

I don't get you guys.

Ned was doing everything he could to kill Jaime, and couldn't touch him. Jaime was toying with Ned.

How can so many people think that Ned looked too good or Jaime looked too weak or the sad few who think that Ned would have won? Nuh-uh.

Well, that's your interpretation. Which incidentally, according to the CREATORS of the show, is totally wrong:

The Wolf and the Lion: Behind the Scenes

(check around 3:45)

[Merentha]

Jaime is the finest swordsman in Westeros, of course he would be superior in a fight against Ned who is much older and out of form anyway. If the best swordsman in Seven Kingdoms and a Knight of the Kingsguard had faced difficulty handling Ned I would be disappointed with the writers.

Looked like he was having some trouble to me. And, looking on other places, and talking with people who hadn't read the books, most thought that they were even or that Ned even had the upper hand.

[howland_reed]

This is the only site on the TV series that spends so much time nitpicking. It's really tiresome to go through every episode thread and have 80% of the posts discuss why Littlefinger took the Hound's lines, or why Loras is so thin.

My only complaints throughout this show have been largely about the scale of production, but this was the first episode where it felt epic from start to finish. Even the tourney seemed more thrilling than last week's. Loved the shots of the Eyrie, however brief. Loved Ned and Jaime's duel, and especially Jaime's reaction when the Lannister guard took a cheap shot to end the fight.

[L’Age d’or]

Looked like he was having some trouble to me. And, looking on other places, and talking with people who hadn't read the books, most thought that they were even or that Ned even had the upper hand.

Well Ned's a popular character and much more likeable than Jaime, especially for the viewers, its a natural thing to think Ned was superior because of the bias.

[reiver]

I wish they'd chosen to include Littlefinger's explanation of how agreeing to kill Dany in a way likely to fail was the smarter move than defying Robert. It really shows Littlefinger as a Smart player of the game and Ned as an inept one. It would have done a lot of the job the Varys/littlefinger scene was supposed to do but much more elegantly. Showing someone's smarts is much more effective than willy waving (unless you're Theon and all you've got...).

Also a little miffed that they changed his lines about killing Dany to: "cut her throat and be done with it" rather than "give her a kiss, a steel kiss" after his "ugly woman metaphor". I'm not completely anti-change but it seems so often when they do this it's a poorer line. For example i don't mind them adding to the whole breastplate stretcher scene to make it more obvious that it was a joke but why mangle a perfectly good line for... Well i'm unsure what gain.

[Merentha]

This is the only site on the TV series that spends so much time nitpicking. It's really tiresome to go through every episode thread and have 80% of the posts discuss why Littlefinger took the Hound's lines, or why Loras is so thin.

My only complaints throughout this show have been largely about the scale of production, but this was the first episode where it felt epic from start to finish. Even the tourney seemed more thrilling than last week's. Loved the shots of the Eyrie, however brief. Loved Ned and Jaime's duel, and especially Jaime's reaction when the Lannister guard took a cheap shot to end the fight.

How many of those posts are also "holy crap I'm in love with the show!" because, really, I'm in love with the show. They've done a fantastic job and its come together in a way that was better than I'd ever anticipated. The extra scenes do a great job at filling in the gaps that viewers need, offer new and interesting looks at some characters, and, generally, add to the story. They've taken the books and in adapted them brilliantly.

And, as to the fight: that behind-the-scenes thing alguien linked is really interesting. They intended for the fight to be even. Looks like they, in my opinion, misinterpreted Ned's success in the rebellion as personal skill at arms, rather than good commanding and strategy.

[Ser Warpechowski]

Dunno, I always thought Barristan was better than Jaime.

About LF: He is the made man of the series. He has a humble story and yet he managed to rise so high and survive so long after so many have died. He also fought against Brandom for Cat, even through he was weaker, younger and had way less experience and training. He is a guy who goes after what he wants and he is nowhere near as ruthless as most of the other characters. He was wiling to work with Ned buy it wasnt possible.

[DurararaFTW]

Look Sean Bean knows how to make his swordfighting look good, okay? I'm sure they had to go cut because he still just looked an ounch too cool but this what they had to go with. Get over it.

[kungtotte]

Ned Stark crossed blades with the Sword of the Morning and lived to tell about it. Or rather, lived to say infuriatingly little about it. He's no slouch when it comes to swordplay, and I would say he's definitely on the level where Jaime has to break out his A material in order to win.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

Really great episode. In my mind, probably the best of those that have aired until now. But the worst first:

- Littlefinger knows about Varys and Illyrio?! Really?!! Was that really necessary? Now I really feel as much without out balls as Conleth Hill looked like when Littlefinger told him he knew ;-). And I really want to hit Aiden Gillen every time I see him on the screen. I really did not know that this would mean that much to me... I think that might have been a mistake, as technically the series has now to elaborate on this more, and we should get a reason why Littlefinger is not going to sell Varys to Robert/Cersei/Tyrion/Tywin later on.

In that scene Littlefinger knows Varys met with Illyrio, but does he really know what the two of them were discussing or planning? It's not a secret that Varys is from Essos, so I'm not sure why him visiting an old friend would be incriminating enough for LF to be able to sell him out. I think LF told him that just because he knows it'd annoy Varys that he wasn't able to keep the meeting a complete secret as he probably tried. I'd say LF doesn't sell Varys out because he's convinced that he does have his balls, in a manner of speaking, and arrogantly assumes that Varys can't pull off anything that he can't see coming.

[alguien]

Incidentally, Kalbear's quote here:

But the new scenes - they're awesome. It's like the deleted scenes version of the books. It's like getting to read the books and finding a whole new detail all over again.

Is one I completely, 100% agree with. In fact I'd used almost those exact same words when talking to a friend about it last night.

(though I do think we saw a more introspective Robert in last night's episode than we're given in the books)

[End of Disc One]

Dunno, I always thought Barristan was better than Jaime.

In his prime probably, but I would say Jaime is the best at this point in the book.

Note that I have no problem with him and Ned being evenly matched in the show. It made it more exciting and I don't believe in "they changed it now it sucks."

[panther]

Am I the only one who wasn't impressed with the Eyrie? Sure, it looked impressive, but I think it was the first time watching this show that I said "oh, that's obviously CGI."

I was also disappointed with the Eyrie, but only because it was not at all how I pictured it from the book description. In the book, it was described as being high on a solid mountain, and not necessarily at the top of the mountain. From the Eyrie one can see the waterfall, Alyssa's tears, on giant's lance. From this I understood that the waterfall started at a greater height than the Eyrie, and pictured it as a part of a continuous ridgeline with Alyssa's tears pouring out higher up but reasonably close to the castle. The castle is also described as having 7 very slim white towers. The great hall was described as long and narrow (more rectangular, then), almost all white, with some blue veins in the marble, and basically very sterile, empty, and cold. Finally, it looks out over and has a clear view of the whole Vale of Arryn below.

From the first external shot of the Eyrie in the series, it looks like it has hills/mountains on all sides and not a great plain. The Eyrie itself looks more Eastern, like the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul, and not shining white. (Winterfell also seems to me to have a more Eastern architecture in the series, which surprised me.) The throne room is also round, not long, and dark, not bright, cold, and sterile.

I imagined the sky cells to be much smaller, which would make them much more threatening. In this episode, Tyrion is put in a huge cell. It does not seem like he would need to fear rolling over in his sleep and falling out if he was in the back corner.

Other than making the sky cells less scary, though, none of this really matters. I agree with others that Renly should show a bit more strength and confidence and I didn't really need the Loras/Renly scene, but I am enjoying the series and thought this a good episode overall.

[wolverine]

I liked the added scene with Robert and Cersei. I really don't care if they make Ned a better swordsman than many of you "think" he is in the books.

I do not think they should have had the scene with Varys and LF as it does not make sense with the plot IMO.

I also liked the added scene with Theon and felt it was necessary for nonviewers. I thought Loras looked perfect from what I had read and did not mind the scene with Renly. Renly is described in the book to be similar to Robert when he was younger. Renly is a bit small and slim for me, not Loras.

Another reader was hoping that Gregor was really played by a huge man and actually thought the Hound was too small. The actor playing the Hound is not too small but sometimes on screen it is hard to show size differences.

[Ran]

Why the quote around "think"? We know how good he is in the books, or at least how good he isn't, because George has said so. ;)

[Lord Varys]

double post, please delete

[Lord Varys]

Well, and I've to add that I never ever imagined that Paxter Redwyne was into small boys. That guy fathered three children on the sister of his old buddy Mace. Or are we only lead to believe that he did this. Well, well, now I see Randyll's try to foster Samwell at the Arbor with different eyes entirely. And Cersei arresting the Redwyne twins could have had a secret humanitarian motivation as well.

It would have been better to mention Lyn Corbray here.

And Varys should have pointed the audience toward Littlefinger's interest in Sansa in this episode. Saying something like 'Grown men should not be into young redheads, surely you agree' or something like that.

Littlefinger clearly owns too much people here. Renly's look after he made the 'have your friend' joke showed clearly that he could be blackmailed. Which makes homosexuality or at least his relationship with Loras a 'bad thing', and I'm not sure if this was the indicated in the books as well.

As to Littlefinger knowing about Illyrio:

If Littlefinger knows about Illyrio, then he also knows about Illyrio being the guy who brokered the marriage deal with Drogo. And then it's not that unlikely that an apparent secret meeting with Illyrio Mopatis would most likely be a really shady thing, making it rather easily to deduce for him that they were plotting with each other rather than just discussing official business with Pentos. Especially as Robert would most likely not care much about to conduct business with Illyrio Mopatis after the latter harbored and protected the Targaryens in exile.

[Eponine]

Ned is a competent swordsman, presumably well trained, with multiple battle experience including against the old Kingsguard. Even though he barely survived because of Howland's help, it seems that he had to hold his own end up the fighting up. While a fight between him and Jaime shouldn't be even, it's reasonable to assume that Jaime would have to work to defeat him instead of hacking him down in the first blow.

[Cereal Forel]

loved it, as usual.

my only gripe is apparently one that isn't share by anyone else. The fight scenes seem extraordinarily sloppy for some reason. These are supposed to be the most bad assed of bad asses and they are wielding their swords like hollywood actors on their first run through the choreography. But like I said, I'm apparently the only one. I must have an image in my head that isn't accurate at all.

[kungtotte]

It's not just you. The hack and slash is fine for the mountain clans, for a big brute like Gregor and for the redshirts, but I think the books describe fight scenes as much more fluid and elegant than what we're given on screen. In the books we read about exchanges of blows, fancy moves and such that I take to be more along the lines of Errol Flynn or whatever. In the show we get these 'windmill blows' and that's about it.