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[BOOK SPOILERS] Sexuality in GOT Part Two


Xenophon

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Since the original thread has been locked due to length, and episode 5 has revived the topic, here's a new thread for discussion of sex, and all such things in GOT.

Looking through the episode discussion threads, it seems like the Renly/Loras shaving scene is getting a lot of different reactions. What do you think? Did the show reveal their homosexuality too soon? What did you think of how they presentated their relationship? Was there a double-standard in the nudity?

I think it a good idea to make their homosexuality clear at this point in the story. Yes, the books kept us guessing, but that wouldn't have worked on TV, IMO. We don't have much time to get to meet the characters, and showing Renly and Loras in an intimate setting really fleshed out their characters, while also giving us lots of backstory information (sort of like how Viserys/Doreah contained a lot of exposition, but also developed the characters). Also, making their sexual orientation into a mystery could have led to all sorts of unfortunate implications, if it felt like some giant twist rather than just a part of their characters.

I know some people objected to the shaving itself, as somewhat stereotypical. But I actually thought it was a brilliant visual metaphor for what Loras is trying to do with Renly. Renly is obviously not as hairy as Robert, but his beard and hairiness establishes a visual link between the brothers. So when the Loras shaves Renly, while simultaneously urging him to become king himself, it underscore that he is trying to steer Renly out of Robert's camp and into his own.

As for the actual sex (or lack thereof), I agree with the people who said it's a little ridiculous that we never see a penis, but I thought the idea of having the camera move away from Loras to focus on Renly was good. It emphasizes for the viewer, that while Renly is pretty clearly following Loras's lead, in the end he would be king, and it is his ambition that will matter most for the story.

Overall, I thought it was very well-done. They make it clear that Renly and Loras are gay, but they did it in a way where they seem like real people who aren't solely defined by their sexuality. To me, it felt very real, and clearly fit into the world of the show, where sex and power are so intertwined.

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I think it worked great. TV is not a good medium for subtle story-telling especially for characters like Renly and Loras who are supporting characters. The mysteries should be for stuff like who was it that tried to kill Bran and who is Jon Snows mom and so forth. Things involving the main central cast.

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My theory is that the Theon/Ros scene (with its higher than average explicit level) was in there to provide a balance to (and shield from critique of) the Renly/Loras scene. (As in "you complain about the gay scene, but the hetero scene was WAY more explicit - full frontal even!")

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I simply don't like the early reveal, I think it would of been a more powerful moment for people to realise the depth of their relationship when Loras looses his mind at Renly's death, with a thousand subtle hints before that point. What we have is an overt scene when the role of homosexuality is not clearly defined in the world of Westeros, is their relationship legitimate, can they be open? I think a "closeted" presentation in the world they inhabit would of been a better representation of the world of Westeros and it's moral and social attitudes.

I also dislike the lack of confidence in Renly, In my read he was a self important vain man convinced of the failings of his brothers and his own strengths, here he is nervous and self doubting.

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I simply don't like the early reveal, I think it would of been a more powerful moment for people to realise the depth of their relationship when Loras looses his mind at Renly's death, with a thousand subtle hints before that point.

So... By not telling/showing it until after Renly's death, you are in effect saying that you don't want it shown at all? How would that be more powerful?

ASOIAF overall is filled with characters where sexuality is far from subtle. Why should Renly/Loras be different? They never were POV characters, but the show is not limited by that format.

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So... By not telling/showing it until after Renly's death, you are in effect saying that you don't want it shown at all? How would that be more powerful?

ASOIAF overall is filled with characters where sexuality is far from subtle. Why should Renly/Loras be different? They never were POV characters, but the show is not limited by that format.

Because as people realise what they thought was once thing is actualy another it would have more impact, the shock of the reveal.

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What we have is an overt scene when the role of homosexuality is not clearly defined in the world of Westeros, is their relationship legitimate, can they be open? I think a "closeted" presentation in the world they inhabit would of been a better representation of the world of Westeros and it's moral and social attitudes.

I also dislike the lack of confidence in Renly, In my read he was a self important vain man convinced of the failings of his brothers and his own strengths, here he is nervous and self doubting.

I also remember Renly as far more confident in the books. I like this reinterpretation, though--it makes his relationship with the Tyrells more interesting, IMO.

Re. how open Renly and Loras are about their relationship, it seemed to me like it's not generally known, given how LF talks around the issue while they're in public. I'd guess it's something like in RL history, where, to paraphrase LF, anything was permitted if you were rich enough. There were plenty of European monarchs/noblemen who were widely rumored to have gay lovers, but everyone just turned a blind eye if they were powerful enough.

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Because as people realise what they thought was once thing is actualy another it would have more impact, the shock of the reveal.

It was never a shocking moment in the books. In fact, it was so subtle that many readers missed it. There was no reveal. You were just supposed to pick up on it.

I don't get this obsession with gay male characters having to be invisible. It's silly.

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I thought the Renly/ Loras scene was actually fantastic because I never understood Renly's motivation for declaring himself king, and it gives an intro the Tyrells who are very manipulative and use pretty much every other family member for political machinations. Because of the limits of POV, I never felt like Loras was fleshed out, and it's extremely natural that he'd take after the rest of the family.

I noticed some people complaining about the timing of the scene, but it was really smart to show it now. The same episode of the tournament allows new viewers to immediately recognize Loras, oh the guy that was jousting is Renly's boyfriend. Second, the same way they are really laying out Theon's backstory so he'll carry interest in season two, this gives new viewers a reference for when Margaery and the rest of the Tyrells pop up. Finally, in either next week's episode or the one after, Renly's going to be talking to Ned and taking off in the night, and this gives viewers a reason to note the importance of that. Frankly I barely registered Renly's character the first time I read AGOT, so when he took off I didn't really notice. Reading the second book, all of a sudden it's 'Renly's declared!' and I thought, who?

I didn't think the shaving was too sexy, but I guess they're trying to get inventive about their erotic exposition scenes.

Various people from the beginning have noted differing levels of comfortability with the graphic sex scenes, and that's fine. I just don't understand seeing rape and incest and prostitute abuse, but slurping sounds between dudes just crosses the line! What? And actually, uh, there's kind of a shortage of healthy relationships in this series. I would think everyone would rejoice for a new one.

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I am not sure what making them openly gay really adds to the story. IIRC, whether Renly deflowered Margaery was a somewhat important issue and lingering question. I guess they can ignore that plotline.

Not necessarily. Gay men have fathered children throughout the ages. Oscar Wilde had two children. In the olden days, men were under social pressure to get married and have children, whatever their preference actually was. Renly needs an heir.

Also, they are not openly gay. Renly looked like he wanted the ground to swallow him up when Littlefinger started commenting on it. He's clearly in the closet!

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Because as people realise what they thought was once thing is actualy another it would have more impact, the shock of the reveal.

Hmm, I'm glad they didn't play it for shock value. The fact that a character's gay doesn't have to be a shocking thing.

I am not sure what making them openly gay really adds to the story. IIRC, whether Renly deflowered Margaery was a somewhat important issue and lingering question. I guess they can ignore that plotline.

Why would they have to drop that part of the story? If anything making Renly/Loras more obvious will emphasize the question of whether Renly ever actually consummated his marriage.

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Not necessarily. Gay men have fathered children throughout the ages. Oscar Wilde had two children. In the olden days, men were under social pressure to get married and have children, whatever their preference actually was. Renly needs an heir.

Also, they are not openly gay. Renly looked like he wanted the ground to swallow him up when Littlefinger started commenting on it. He's clearly in the closet!

That's true, but it apparently isn't too big a secret if LF is announcing it to everyone at the tournament. Questions over Margaery's virginity went hand in hand with the Renly is gay rumors. Now, it seems to me (and a great deal of others) that the writers have portrayed Renly to be more openly gay than he is portrayed in the book. There is no subtlety. So how seriously will people question whether Margaery is a virgin?

Minor quibble, really.

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That's true, but it apparently isn't too big a secret if LF is announcing it to everyone at the tournament. Questions over Margaery's virginity went hand in hand with the Renly is gay rumors. Now, it seems to me (and a great deal of others) that the writers have portrayed Renly to be more openly gay than he is portrayed in the book. There is no subtlety. So how seriously will people question whether Margaery is a virgin?

I'm not following this line of argument at all. Many gay men have fathered children.

Indeed, the assumption would be that he consummated the marriage, if only to produce an heir. James I of England was widely rumored to be gay (Elizabeth was a King, James is a Queen, etc.) yet he had a bunch of kids. Why would Renly be any different?

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I would have liked Renly being more confident and less 'omg blood ooooo'. That doesn't mean Loras can't drive him and push him; it's clear that Baratheons are led by their cocks, after all. But he could still be all 'yeah, I should be king' and then Loras asks why he couldn't. And go from there.

I think they should have been less subtle about the sex. Everyone should be hitting it doggie style. No ambiguous slurping; he might have been just happily drinking an iced milk or something. Who knows? It's totally unclear.

I don't think they needed this scene to establish the relationship, but I also like that it establishes the Tyrells as an early power. Loras winking at Renly was enough to establish something; this wasn't about the relationship being established, it was about showing the Tyrell power.

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That's true, but it apparently isn't too big a secret if LF is announcing it to everyone at the tournament.

No. He wasn't pronouncing it openly, he was using innuendo to annoy Renly. It probably went over most of the nearby people's heads. After all, even in the book, people were fond of making vaguely homophobic quips about their relationship, in exactly the same way. That hardly counts as "outing them."

And, as I said, Renly being gay does not in any way prevent him deflowering Margaery for the purpose of fathering a child. Gay men throughout history have fathered children.

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I think they should have been less subtle about the sex. Everyone should be hitting it doggie style. No ambiguous slurping; he might have been just happily drinking an iced milk or something. Who knows? It's totally unclear.

At the risk of going into way more detail about sex than is necessary, I thought a blowjob was a good choice insofar as it brings up all sorts of questions about who is really in charge. On the one hand, giving head has traditionally been considered submissive, on the other, the person giving head is really the one calling the shots. It's a metaphor for Renly and Loras's political relationship--Renly looks like the dominant partner at first glance, but Loras is really steering him.

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Also being gay, while somewhat seen as bad was not the horrible notion that people think it was. Historically there were plenty of rulers that were gay. It wasn't acceptable to be open about it - at the very least because it was a sin - but it wasn't this ridiculously evil evil thing.

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My main complaints about the Loras/Renly scene are:

a)Renly should be more self-confident and "in charge". In the show, it seemed like Loras has seduced him or something while imo it was the other way around.

b)Renly afraid of blood (wtf)

c)Both of them sounding.....girly. You don't have to be so effeminate in order to be gay (or at least I don't think so) and the both of them never sounded like that to me in the books. Even Loras, who is described slender and with a girlish face, always sounded like a man of war and action.

d)The saving part.....call me homophobic or anything but I cringed and so did the friends that watched it with me (and haven't read the books). Ruined the atmosphere really. But I suppose this can be personal.

e)Duration. Seriously? Almost all the intimate scenes so far were much shorter (and important plot-wise). And I am not talking about random shagging but about Cat and Ned at bed, Dany's deflowering etc

In my mind it would be perfect if they showed them embraced in bed, having obviously just finished sex, maybe exchanging a kiss or two and with Renly saying how good a king he would make while Loras encouraged him and declared undying loyalty or whatever.

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