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[BOOK SPOILERS] Sexuality in GOT Part Two


Xenophon

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No. He wasn't pronouncing it openly, he was using innuendo to annoy Renly. It probably went over most of the nearby people's heads. After all, even in the book, people were fond of making vaguely homophobic quips about their relationship, in exactly the same way. That hardly counts as "outing them."

And, as I said, Renly being gay does not in any way prevent him deflowering Margaery for the purpose of fathering a child. Gay men throughout history have fathered children.

Of course it doesn't prevent him from the physical act of consummating the marriage. Personal bias, perhaps, but as I read the story, whether Renly did the deed seemed to be a genuine mystery. Now, considering the writers have opted to make him flamboyant and play on very common gay stereotypes, I can't imagine that Renly took Margaery's virginity. I guess they can still play up the did he or didn't aspect, but I sure don't buy that he did it...err her.

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Looking through the episode discussion threads, it seems like the Renly/Loras shaving scene is getting a lot of different reactions. What do you think? Did the show reveal their homosexuality too soon? What did you think of how they presentated their relationship? Was there a double-standard in the nudity?

I think it a good idea to make their homosexuality clear at this point in the story. Yes, the books kept us guessing, but that wouldn't have worked on TV, IMO. We don't have much time to get to meet the characters, and showing Renly and Loras in an intimate setting really fleshed out their characters, while also giving us lots of backstory information (sort of like how Viserys/Doreah contained a lot of exposition, but also developed the characters). Also, making their sexual orientation into a mystery could have led to all sorts of unfortunate implications, if it felt like some giant twist rather than just a part of their characters.

I know some people objected to the shaving itself, as somewhat stereotypical.

Ugh, the shaving scene was just... all wrong, somehow.

When I first heard there was going to be a Renly/ Loras love scene, I was pretty happy for several reasons. First, it would allow them to flesh out their relationship, which the books didn't really do until after Renly was dead. Secondly, it would represent different sexual persuasions equally, which, imo, is all to often not done, even on hbo. Thirdly... it would be hot.

Yet somehiow, HBO managed to make a love scene between two hot guys utterly unsexy. First issue: the shaving thing. Did anyone else feel queasy/ nervous watching that razor scraping over Renly's chest? I kept shuddering in fear that Loras was going to cut him... serisously, I was so apprehensive that Loras's hand would slip, it was distracting. And then he did cut Renly, purposely. Gross. Also kind of gross: Armpit shaving. I mean, seriously, HBO, seriously, did you really have to show us that?

Also-- Renly's "I'm afraid of blood, and hate hunting and war" thing was not at all true to the character in the book. Renly was stylish and loved clothes, but was not at all wimpy/ conventionally feminine. And Loras...I've always seen him as a younger, less pervy Jaime Lanister myself. A brilliant fighter, athletic, arrogant, quick tempered, yet chivalrous. But here... I'm not sure. His voice and mannerisms just struck me as somehow... prissy. Not at all the dashing character of the books.

And did Loras have to want Renly's chest all silky smooth? Seriously, do we have to endorse that stereotype, too?

But maybe I'm being too crtitical... I'm sorry if I've inadvertantly said anything offensive here. It's just that I had such high hopes for this scene. What I expected was character development and an expression of true love/ romance. What I got was a whole lot like going to the dentist.

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c)Both of them sounding.....girly. You don't have to be so effeminate in order to be gay (or at least I don't think so) and the both of them never sounded like that to me in the books. Even Loras, who is described slender and with a girlish face, always sounded like a man of war and action.

...

e)Duration. Seriously? Almost all the intimate scenes so far were much shorter (and important plot-wise). And I am not talking about random shagging but about Cat and Ned at bed, Dany's deflowering etc

I didn't find them at all effeminate. That being said, I'm glad they didn't feel the need to make them all macho, like a lot of shows/films seem to do these days, as if there were no middle ground between camp gay and Omar from the Wire.

I didn't find it long. Compare it to the Viserys/Doreah scene--in both cases you have quite a long scene, but it's working on two levels, developing the characters we see, but also filling us in on the backstory in an interesting way. Dany/Drogo could be done more quickly because it really had no other point, and they had spent other scenes setting it up.

Ugh, the shaving scene was just... all wrong, somehow. ...

Yet somehiow, HBO managed to make a love scene between two hot guys utterly unsexy. First issue: the shaving thing. Did anyone else feel queasy/ nervous watching that razor scraping over Renly's chest? I kept shuddering in fear that Loras was going to cut him... serisously, I was so apprehensive that Loras's hand would slip, it was distracting. And then he did cut Renly, purposely. Gross. Also kind of gross: Armpit shaving. I mean, seriously, HBO, seriously, did you really have to show us that?

I thought it was a great metaphor for the underlying political side of Renly/Loras. Loras is playing a very dangerous game pushing Renly towards the throne.

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I didn't find them at all effeminate. That being said, I'm glad they didn't feel the need to make them all macho, like a lot of shows/films seem to do these days, as if there were no middle ground between camp gay and Omar from the Wire.

Eh. I think them being somewhat macho wouldn't have been so weird. Renly is the brother of one of the most notable warriors in the realm, renown for his fury and strength. Loras is renown as one of the best jousters in the realm and great with a sword besides. Both of them having some kind of fairly strong bodies wouldn't be at all weird to me.
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Eh. I think them being somewhat macho wouldn't have been so weird. Renly is the brother of one of the most notable warriors in the realm, renown for his fury and strength. Loras is renown as one of the best jousters in the realm and great with a sword besides. Both of them having some kind of fairly strong bodies wouldn't be at all weird to me.

Yeah, I definitely think they should have looked physically stronger (or at least Loras, since they seem to be changing Renly from the books). But I like that Loras is able to be gentle while also being a bad-ass. Sometimes shows try so hard to avoid the effeminate gay stereotype that they end up going to the opposite extreme, and it feels uncomfortably like they're trying to reassure the audience that "this guy is gay, but he's still a man". Renly and Loras felt like real people, which is good.

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I can see the pros and the cons of revealing the sexual relationship between Renly and Loras. I also think they needed to introduce Renly as a king-candidate now but personally I think they made their point before the oral sex scene. I think that was gratuitous and probably just thrown in for HBO-shock value.

The same goes for Theon and Roz. They have laid the groundwork for Theon's future well but I really didn't need the full frontal. Again, think it was gratuitous.

I just hope that doesn't turn off viewers. We need the ratings to stay high!

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I didn't find them at all effeminate. That being said, I'm glad they didn't feel the need to make them all macho, like a lot of shows/films seem to do these days, as if there were no middle ground between camp gay and Omar from the Wire.

I thought they were bordering camp gay...especially the blood ickiness in freaking Westeros. Sadly I haven't watched the Wire.

here's a hetero audience out there, about 1/2 of whom would likely get grossed out at the sight of two guys making out;

I consider myself one of bad cases of being grossed out by homosexual displays (no offense, I have nothing against homosexuals) but I would prefer a kiss. I was less grossed out in "I love you Philip Morris" than in the Loras/Renly scene......unless it was the razor that did it for me. Not sure yet.

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It was a good scene I thought, as it sets up R&L's genuine feelings, Renly's motivations for season 2, House Tyrell's big bankroll, and the existence of Stannis, the other Baratheon brother with the personality of a lobster.

I also don't get the gratuitous comment. Every individual sex scene, like every fight, is gratuitous if you really want to deconstruct the whole down to its component parts. So that really tells us nothing, and it strikes me as an odd remark considering the myriad instances of lingering perversity in the books. I suppose you can be an equal opportunity prude about every instance of sexposition, but then in that case this probably isn't the show for you and I wonder how you got through the books with such a narrow comfort zone.

Also, can we really expect HBO of all networks to play coy about a homosexual relationship that is canon off-screen in the books, that we now get to see first-hand ensconced in privacy of their bedchamber? What dramatic purpose would such deliberately manufactured obfuscation possibly fulfil? Better to fully copy the books and just not show Renly at all, than to manufacture obscurity for its own sake.

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understand seeing rape and incest and prostitute abuse, but slurping sounds between dudes just crosses the line!

The thing about the BJ that bothered me was that is sounded totally unrealistic.It was the same with Ros and Tyrion. It was very much: okay, head lowers below camera shot, CUE the SLURPING!

It just was totally cheesy and unrealistic.

Honestly, there have been a lot of times that sound/audio in the show has ruined by suspension of disbelief, like many of the obvious voice overs. The blow jobs have been some of the more noticeable moments.

So I'm all about the BJs, but not when there's fake slurping.

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Actually, now I want there to be 70s porn music dubbed into some of these clips. The Tyrion orgy, the Dany 'I would look upon you' bit, the Jaime/Cersei bit and this one. Someone with youtube skills make it so.

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OK, that Renly & Loras scene was just unforgiveable.

Not gonna lie, my little fantasy in my head was looking forward to 2 hot, masculine, warrior type guys being together in love (because for them it was true love).

What do I get?

Skinny little Loras who looks 14, and 2 of Westeros' greatest knights sniping at eachother like old women!!!! Seriously - WTF?!?! :tantrum:

OK, and don't tell me the "hetero population" would find that less disturbing - 'cuz I'm all colours of fine with that stuff, and I was gicked out. :stillsick:

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I had no problem with Renly and Loras getting it on (though the slurpy-slurp was cheesy in a not good way). The bigger gripe on that scene is the fact that Renly comes off as a wimp and someone who the audience really can't see as a credible king-in-waiting. All we have is his lover's assurance that "everyone loves him". OK I'm convinced, if Loras says it it must be true. At least it achieved planting the seed of his claim and how the claim can be supported logistically and financially.

My bigger nudity/sex gripe with E105 was Theon and Ros. If you can't show a hard-on on TV then don't flash an immediately post-coital willy. Give it at least a minute or 2 for the thing to deflate and then put it out there. It ruined the illusion that they were doing anyting other than dry humping.

And Ros needed to wear a bigger merkin. They should have borrowed some from the set of Spartacus.

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All we have is his lover's assurance that "everyone loves him". OK I'm convinced, if Loras says it it must be true.

I actually quite liked that part. It was one of those tender moments when a person tells their lover the reasons that they're awesome. "Everyone loves you, you're nice, you're a good person." It feels wonderful to be the person doing the telling. And it feels great to be the other person, who gets to be uplifted because someone they love thinks that they're amazing.

I thought it was sweet. It was the part of a romance that we rarely see on screen. It might have even made my heart flip just a little bit.

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Yeah, I really do wish it had been hotter. Such a grand opportunity, utterly missed.

Buuut... thinking on it again, I just realized that practically NONE of the sex in George's books is hot. Not even a little. So I guess they are sort of thematically following him in this regard...??

Oh well, surely the'll have another love scene in aCoK... And it better have some !@#%ING KISSING next time. :tantrum:

...

On another note... Of all the wangs, whyyyy did it have to be Theon's?? I suppose it has to do with nudity clauses. Oh well. :(

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Buuut... thinking on it again, I just realized that practically NONE of the sex in George's books is hot. Not even a little. So I guess they are sort of thematically following him in this regard...??
He tries to make it somewhat hot, sometimes. Dany's lesbo adventures, some of the Shae/Tyrion bits, probably the Jon/Ygritte parts.

And then in AFFC, he...oh, GRRM NO.

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