[BOOK SPOILERS] Sexuality in GOT Part Two

[The Anti-Targ]

I actually quite liked that part. It was one of those tender moments when a person tells their lover the reasons that they're awesome. "Everyone loves you, you're nice, you're a good person." It feels wonderful to be the person doing the telling. And it feels great to be the other person, who gets to be uplifted because someone they love thinks that they're amazing.

I thought it was sweet. It was the part of a romance that we rarely see on screen. It might have even made my heart flip just a little bit.

Sure it was sweet, no problem there. But the writers have got a lot ahead of them to convince the audience that Renly has the character qualities to make even a halfway decent king, and hence make it believable that the Tyells will support Renly on more than just Loras' say so. Maybe Loras will forge Renly into something by the end of this season. But then again I was always Stannis' man, I'm just a stickler for applying the rules of succession (unless there was a clear case of insanity) and I'd definitely rather have iron on the throne than copper.

I don't mind Loras being a babyface killah either.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

I believe the clear depiction of Renly and Loras as lovers was necessary purely from a characterisation POV. In the series, we already have an abundance of characters who on first glance could quite easily become lost in the shuffle. Clearly depiction these two as gay negates that. People will now instantly know who they are (The king's gay brother and his lover), and their characterisation will thereby stick.

I haven't actually watched the episode however so can't comment on the characters themselves, just the presentation of sexuality.

[seppuku]

The slurping was laughably over the top and dumb.

The shaving was also cheesy and lame.

I understand they needed to throw exposition at us. But my number one issue here is how they completely emasculated Renly to the point of being cartoon gay. In the books, he's protrayed as this smug, cocky knight that doesn't give a fuck. In the show, he's written as a sissy that says dumb things like "i don't like to fight" and while letting a little boy shave his armpits.

I'm not opposed to 'gay sex' scenes, but the way HBO went over the top with it and them butchering Renly's book character is the glaring issue here.

[Herr Fick]

Strange, HBO doesn't normally shy away from realistic depictions of naked people (see Oz, Deadwood and Boardwalk Empire) but Ros walks around in quasi-medieval northern culture sporting a landing strip? Please... :rolleyes:

[Brienne the Beauty]

Strange, HBO doesn't normally shy away from realistic depictions of naked people (see Oz, Deadwood and Boardwalk Empire) but Ros walks around in quasi-medieval northern culture sporting a landing strip? Please... :rolleyes:

She needs to look good in a bikini! In the Frozen North! :)

[SergioCQH]

Strange, HBO doesn't normally shy away from realistic depictions of naked people (see Oz, Deadwood and Boardwalk Empire) but Ros walks around in quasi-medieval northern culture sporting a landing strip? Please... :rolleyes:

Do you think the removal of body hair is an exclusively modern practice? If so, you're dead wrong. Various cultures around the world have been practicing removal of pubic and underarm hair for millennia.

[Ran]

I do admit that I was a little (pruriently) surprised that a merkin wasn't provided... I mean, it's becoming all the rage these days, with Spartacus and Mildred Pierce making use of them, so you practically expect it.

But I guess Ros, being very fashionable, has adopted the... uh ... Lyseni fashion, maybe?

[Trebla]

lol...I'm glad I wasn't the only one noting that! :blushing: I saw Deadwood not that long ago and so was expecting something similar.

As for the Loras/Renly dynamic, perhaps they have a relationship similar to Lan and Nynaeve. One dominates in public and the other in private. Loras seems to WANT Renly to raised higher than him. He'll want to serve him on the KG. He'll even want Renly married to his own sister.

[Xenophon]

Do you think the removal of body hair is an exclusively modern practice? If so, you're dead wrong. Various cultures around the world have been practicing removal of pubic and underarm hair for millennia.

Yeah, check out Aristophanes' Assembly of Women. It begins with a woman praising the lamp as a friend to women, because, among other things, they use it to singe off their pubic hair. And yes, you read that right. :stunned:

[Herr Fick]

Do you think the removal of body hair is an exclusively modern practice? If so, you're dead wrong. Various cultures around the world have been practicing removal of pubic and underarm hair for millennia.

Yes, everybody knows that.

But there is no evidence that European women (or men, for that matter) in late medieval or early renaissance times used to do French waxing or any other form of pubic hair removal, except in order to counter lice infestation.

While the removal of body hair has been practiced by many cultures (and for reasons of hygiene became a universal custom in hot and humid or dry regions such as central South America, India or North Africa and the Middle East*), this particular form of grooming is a rather recent fashion. Its origins lie in the world of professional modelling (especially since the advent of the bikini in 1946) and it's not some venerable ancient tradition (how could it be, as it defies the original purpose by leaving hair at all?). Of course, body hair removal - like most originally pragmatic customs - often became a social custom indicating status or an aesthetic custom indicating a concept of beauty. But I can see no reason why women in the North of Westeros would have a halawa culture or something like that**. And though one could give some internal justification in the vein of "But it's a fantasy world" or "She just wants to look exotic"***, I think the reason for (at least all the naked) women's oddly contemporary**** 'hairstyle' in Game of Thrones is that the series' producers - contrary to those of Deadwood or Boardwalk Empire - didn't have the balls to go against common viewer expectations.

It's not a big deal. ;) But I was surprised and found it strange, considering HBO's record.

*: contrary, for example, to East Asia

**: (whereas the use of a Perret razor by Loras Tyrell is just anachronistic)

***: both of which would contradict Martin's novels - where, if I may say so, women wear bush

****: as well as North American

But I guess Ros, being very fashionable, has adopted the... uh ... Lyseni fashion, maybe?

Well, there's the explanation then. :)

[Vuron]

I'm straight and I thought the scene worked out great, with the exception of the slurping sounds.

It seems that most of the negative comments around the scene focus more on the characters than the actual scene, itself. Loras is too puny, Renly isn't manly enough, Loras is the dominant one, etc. I believe that we have to take into context that what happens in the privacy of the bedroom (or tent) doesn't translate to the outside world. I haven't noticed any other scene with Renly where I questioned his masculinity. I believe that both Renly and Loras portray different faces to the public.

I know that I'm in the minority, but Loras is pretty damn close to what I pictured in the books and that his skill with a lance and sword is based on agility, speed, and training as compared to the brute force and physical presence of the northerners. Sure, he could be slightly more defined, but he is described in the books as very small and young looking and is considered more "pretty" than handsome.

I feel that the scene was necessary to show us Renly's motivation to become king. His motivation was one of the things that I never understood from the books. I, also, don't think it would be that difficult to believe others would follow him. Charisma a very powerful tool in politics.

[SergioCQH]

But there is no evidence that European women (or men, for that matter) in late medieval or early renaissance times used to do French waxing or any other form of pubic hair removal, except in order to counter lice infestation.

There's no evidence that Europeans wore samurai armor like the Lannisters in the series do either. Gemma Jackson explicitly states that she takes inspirations from all over the world.

You surmise that pubic hair grooming and "modern" hairstyles are the result of producers not having the balls to be true to your vision of medieval aesthetic. But this is almost certainly wrong because it's quite apparent that the producers never had any intention of being true to any vision but their own idiosyncratic one.

[Xenophon]

There's no evidence that Europeans wore samurai armor like the Lannisters in the series do either. Gemma Jackson explicitly states that she takes inspirations from all over the world.

You surmise that pubic hair grooming and "modern" hairstyles are the result of producers not having the balls to be true to your vision of medieval aesthetic. But this is almost certainly wrong because it's quite apparent that the producers never had any intention of being true to any vision but their own idiosyncratic one.

Yeah, and considering that they explicitly said that Persian culture is one of their main sources of inspiration, its not at all surprising to see some sort of pubic hair removal on women.

The books are much more middle-ages Europe in feel than the show, which perhaps is leading to the cognitive dissonance. This seems like the palm trees in KL all over again.

[Herr Fick]

There's no evidence that Europeans wore samurai armor like the Lannisters in the series do either. Gemma Jackson explicitly states that she takes inspirations from all over the world.

You surmise that pubic hair grooming and "modern" hairstyles are the result of producers not having the balls to be true to your vision of medieval aesthetic. But this is almost certainly wrong because it's quite apparent that the producers never had any intention of being true to any vision but their own idiosyncratic one.

Jackson herself stated that the North in Game of Thrones intentionally resembles medieval northern Europe in a lot of ways. The Lannisters are not a part of northern culture and subsequently don't resemble medieval Europe. Instead their design makes them stand apart from the North as well as the other cultures of Westeros. Of course, Jackson's North is not meant to accurately mirror medieval Europe and I'm not a purist in terms of historical accuracy: After all, this is a fantasy series.

But as I wrote above, internal explanations like "French waxing's all the rage from Dorne to Winterfell" are certainly possible but seem forced to me, especially regarding the North and thereby Ros. Additionally, Martin's descriptions in the books are uniform.

Thus, my expectations were formed by the novels and by the production designer's own account of the North's historical allusions. Why should Ros and her colleagues' intimate hairstyle diverge from any expectations thus formed? And furthermore, why should it diverge in the direction of contemporary Western (or at least American) fashion? Well, the simplest explanation seems to be that the producers didn't want to go against television viewers' common expectations: Au natural full frontal nudity as depicted in Deadwood or Boardwalk Empire might be considered 'unsexy' and put viewers off who don't expect it (which probably would be quite a few - even on HBO), since it is rather uncommon today, especially in America, and becomes increasingly uncommon in Europe as well. While Deadwood didn't exactly aim at conventional Sexy with its nude scenes, Game of Thrones obviously tries to fit in quite a lot of aestheticised nudity and sex. Personally, I would have appreciated a little bit more spunkiness from HBO. But again: It's not a big deal.

Nevertheless, I concede that the producers' vision is their own and since it's all fantasy they can do whatever they bloody want.

[lynxx]

The Renly/Loras relationship really isn't that important to the plot, although it did contribute to fleshing out the richness of the world building and made their characters more complex. That's why it was so subtle in the books; they never actually came out of the closet.

I figure the shaving scene was merely a nod to early 21t C sensibilities and an attempt at political correctness. Also stirring up additional interest from the gay community, therefore more viewers. "Something for everybody." I have a gay family member, and found the shaving kinda kinky, although it certainly did establish the dynamics of the relationship.

[Prince of Dinas Emrys]

I'm straight and I thought the scene worked out great, with the exception of the slurping sounds.

It seems that most of the negative comments around the scene focus more on the characters than the actual scene, itself. Loras is too puny, Renly isn't manly enough, Loras is the dominant one, etc. I believe that we have to take into context that what happens in the privacy of the bedroom (or tent) doesn't translate to the outside world. I haven't noticed any other scene with Renly where I questioned his masculinity. I believe that both Renly and Loras portray different faces to the public.

I know that I'm in the minority, but Loras is pretty damn close to what I pictured in the books and that his skill with a lance and sword is based on agility, speed, and training as compared to the brute force and physical presence of the northerners. Sure, he could be slightly more defined, but he is described in the books as very small and young looking and is considered more "pretty" than handsome.

I feel that the scene was necessary to show us Renly's motivation to become king. His motivation was one of the things that I never understood from the books. I, also, don't think it would be that difficult to believe others would follow him. Charisma a very powerful tool in politics.

:agree:

[The Anti-Targ]

I, also, don't think it would be that difficult to believe others would follow him. Charisma a very powerful tool in politics.

I'm not feeling his charisma as a character. This scene was the big opportunity to give us a sense of his charisma and all we really got was Loras' assurances that everyone loves him. It's a show vs. tell thing and I think for the audience to buy Renly as king material they need to see it, not hear it from the biased lips of his lover. At least let's hear an admission of Renly's charisma and public affection from a neutral party. Maybe that'll come before the end of this season.

I'm not a book vs. TV person really, but I buy book Renly as someone who could be a reasonable king. taking just what we've seen of Renly in the TV shows I don't buy TV Renly as being a reasonable king. If that's what they are going for in the TV series, that Renly is to be perceived as a deluded dreamer in his bid to become king then that's fine. But it will diminish the level of upset when he gets offed.

I pretty much want the audience to think that splitting Westeros between Renly and Robb is a great idea and a really good solution to the loss of king Bob. Because I reckon that has the best dramatic pay off through seasons 2 and (hopefully) 3. At this point I have my doubts that this is the view the audience will carry in to Season 2.

Edit: OT anyone who thinks GoT is over the top with the sex and nudity need to be forced to watch episode 1 of Spartacus: Gods of the Arena. By comparison GoT looks like children's TV.

[Olenna]

I don't have a problem with the explicitness of the sex scenes, but some of them really drag on. Both the Loras/Renly scene and the Viserys bathtub scene could have been a good 2 minutes shorter. Too many bathtubs, in general. Has anyone had sex in a bed yet?

[TerraPrime]

Too many bathtubs, in general. Has anyone had sex in a bed yet?

Tyrion and the whores.

Theon and Roz.

Daenerys and Drogo.

[Olenna]

Theon and Roz had sex standing up (IIRC), and a pile of animal skins doesn't count as a bed!

Tyrion, ok.