Defending a Dothraki invasion

[wolverine]

A couple conversations on the show and my reread of A Game of Thrones has got me wondering...

What is the best defense against a Dothraki invasion. Jorah clearly points out that Robert would probably be stupid enough to meet the Dothraki horde in open battle. On the show Robert describes an unenviable outcome of holing up in their fortified cities/castles and allowing the Dothraki to rape and pillage anyone who can't get inside of a fortified city/castle.

From what I remember we really do not hear a whole lot about Dothraki battle tactics in the books. Culturally they seem to resemble Mongolians, does that mean they fight like them? The Mongolian horde may have been the most advanced and successful army the world has ever seen. Do the Dothraki know how be as subversive, intelligent, deceptive, quick, etc on the battlefield. Or do they use the fact that they have thousands of bloodthirsty fighters to win the day?

If they do not know how to fight strategically then it would not be stupid to face them in open battle if you have significant numbers to match theirs. The fact that every warrior is mounted for the Dothraki would make it very difficult for Westeros leaders to choose the actual field of battle unless the Dothraki are not very strategic in their fighting.

Now Dany's army is made up of other various parts so that totally changes the game when she invades, not to mention the dragons.

Just curious what you guys think about this.

[morbiczer]

To be honest, simply shipping the 40,000 Dothraki soldiers over the Narrow Sea would have been an unsolvable logistical problem, not to say anything about all the women and slaves of the khalassar.

It wouldn't even have come to the invasion, certainly not with the force of the full khalassar.

[Gurkhal]

As been mentioned, the Dothraki themselves would have a fair chance against Westerosi troops out in the open, but not much in a siege. So yes, most likly they would be unable to affect direct political change. HOWEVER they could still have a decent chance of forcing the Westerosi to come to battle by ravaging their lands. Also if there are Targaryen loyalists, these might be more inclined to join a Targaryen candidate who already have an army, rather than having to start from scratch.

[The Sand Snake]

Yeah I think the Dothraki invasion is overstated a bit. I think that the Seven Kingdoms could withstand them fairly easily. They know the territory which the Dothraki have never seen or fought on before and they have numbers. Plus, theres the fact that the Dothraki would probably never be able to get 40,000 horses and people across the narrow sea.

But the main reason I think that the seven kingdoms fear the invasion so much is that because Dany is with them, some of the seven kingdoms with join the Dothraki. Dorne for one. Maybe another. With Dorne coming from the south Storms End and Highgarden would have to meet them and that would present a huge problem.

[twist of cake]

I am not sure about the loyalist thing most of them are probably much weaker after Robert's Rebellion and the ones who still can do anything mostly likely would not be to happy having the help feed 40,000 barbarians and hell they might even be able to intersecpt them at sea and the invasion right there.

[Gurkhal]

I am not sure about the loyalist thing most of them are probably much weaker after Robert's Rebellion and the ones who still can do anything mostly likely would not be to happy having the help feed 40,000 barbarians and hell they might even be able to intersecpt them at sea and the invasion right there.

Yes absolutely, most of the loyalists are weaker but wouldn't they mostly be in the Riverlands, Vale and Stormlands? It seems to me that the loyalists in the Reach, Crownlands and Dorne did not face any overwhelming loss of lands. To that we don't know what the Westermen felt about the Targaryens - although I would expect Tywin to be able to hold them in check.

Of course none of the loyalists would want to feed the 40 000 barbarians so those would probably have to be fed in enemy territory - am looking at the all time faovite punching bag of Westeros; the Riverlands.

I will however agree that taking down the ships at sea would probably be the best way to handle the Dothraki. A land war could end up with a significant part of Westeros ruined, even if they can't touch the castles.

[Batman]

Winter is enough to kill the entire hoard, it would be worse than Napolean in Russia. They are all shirtless, they will all freeze to death, if people from the south do poorly in the North, Dothraki are screwed.

[PSHorton]

If the Dothraki fight like mongols, Westeros would really have no way of defeating them. Even if they used chiltron tactics like the Scots employed at Bannockburn, the Dothraki arrows would annihilate the westerosi. Also, you could assume that Westerosi knights would throw caution to the wind and charge (See the battles of Mohi, and Kalka River to understand how that would go.)

In fact, the only time I can recall the mongols being defeated in open battle was by the mamelukes at Ain Jalut, and their army operated on similar principles. (In fact, the original mamelukes were supposedly taken from russian steppe tribes in order to mimic the mongol army.)

If, however, the Dothraki fight in close combat, they'd be torn apart by the heavily armored westerosi. Although the mongols, (specifically Ghengis Khan, Jebe and Subotai) used cunning tactics, their primary advantage stemmed from superb mobility and the recurve bow. Without the bow, they would have just been very well organized light cavalry that couldn't stand up to prolongued combat with western knights.

[danm_999]

Winter is enough to kill the entire hoard, it would be worse than Napolean in Russia. They are all shirtless, they will all freeze to death, if people from the south do poorly in the North, Dothraki are screwed.

Yup. They'd basically need to get their control of several major castles and towns to house and feed the Horde sorted straight away if they invaded, because the Dothraki are hopelessly unprepared for a Westerosi winter.

[PSHorton]

As far as the grand scheme of things, Robert's assessment on the show sounds about right. Mongols were renowned for their ability to survive on meager supplies and could graze their horses endlessly on regular grass. (Western warhorses need grain.) This would allow them to travel the continent and starve out the Westerosi.

Granted, shipping fourty thousand horses, let alone men, across the sea would be next to impossible. Assuming they found a way, Westeros would need to defeat them in a naval battle or attack when they came ashore as it is difficult to unload horses. Or they could prey for a Kamikaze (divine wind) like the Japanese did when the mongols tried to conquer them.

:drool:

[Ser Thomas Derpingham]

The Dothraki are mainly mounted archers, yes?

Rows and rows of pikemen. Rows and rows of longbow archers. There will be much blood shed on the Westerosi side, of course, due to the Dothraki archers.

For extra points, engage the Dothraki on a muddy field, with rain sheeting down, so that their bowstrings are soaked through. Command your own archers to put their strings in their helms, and string their bows only when ready to fire.

[Hear Us Roar]

A couple conversations on the show and my reread of A Game of Thrones has got me wondering...

What is the best defense against a Dothraki invasion. Jorah clearly points out that Robert would probably be stupid enough to meet the Dothraki horde in open battle. On the show Robert describes an unenviable outcome of holing up in their fortified cities/castles and allowing the Dothraki to rape and pillage anyone who can't get inside of a fortified city/castle.

Ironic considering Oerys Baratheon and the Gardener King.

They would have to hole up in their castles or meet them at sea or before they land stopping them at the beach.

[Jedi Master Hot Pie]

Where would they land?

Dorne is a desert and not really that suitable for an entire army of cavalry who live off the land.

The Vale of Arryn is mountainous as all hell, not a suitable place for an army of horsemen.

If they come too close to Dragonstone they're doomed as the Royal Fleet would intercept and destroy them before they land.

The Stormlands are full of forests and have some mountains as well.

The North is absolutely massive and the Dothraki would die off in the cold.

And to go with it, the Armies of Westeros would outnumber the Dothraki 5:1 and know the terrain. I don't think Loyalists would rally under a Targaryen...with a pack of "barbarians" who just rape and pillage behind her.

[PSHorton]

The Dothraki COULD theoretically land in the north or Dorne and book it out of there. There's a famous story about a priest who went to meet with the mongols. It took him two years to reach them, but once he was with the mongols, that got back to their homeland in around a year (I believe it was a longer distance than he had travelled in two years)

Basically, the point is that the Dothraki would move REALLY fast, and if they're like mongols, subsist on almost nothing.

It is worht noting that while the Dothraki are reminiscent of mongols, they come from a warm clime, The mongols basically loved the cold, going so far as to always invade in winter. So kudos to everyone who said the north would give them trouble

[Terilien]

Foot archers 9(bigger bows and greater range against much bigger targets(horses) )and anything but flat terrain is the bane of all horse archers. furthermore, the dothraki have no heavy cavalry, which would be necessary to break the enemy lines.

Add to that superior numbers and a complete lack of siege weapons on part of the dothraki? ummm yeah pushing back 40,000 of them would have been a cinch.

[PSHorton]

The Dothraki are mainly mounted archers, yes?

Rows and rows of pikemen. Rows and rows of longbow archers. There will be much blood shed on the Westerosi side, of course, due to the Dothraki archers.

For extra points, engage the Dothraki on a muddy field, with rain sheeting down, so that their bowstrings are soaked through. Command your own archers to put their strings in their helms, and string their bows only when ready to fire.

Assuming the Westerosi have tons of longbowmen, pikemen who won't crap their pants and run, AND the Dothraki don't just go around the chiltron and cut off their supply lines. (Caesar did exactly that when a Roman army came to break his control of italy, and his was a less mobile, primarily infantry force.)

[PSHorton]

Foot archers 9bigger bows and greater range against much bigger targets(horses) and anything but flat terrain is the bane of all horse archers. furthermore, the dothraki have no heavy cavalry, which would be necessary to break the enemy lines.

Add to that superior numbers and a complete lack of siege weapons on part of the dothraki? ummm yeah pushing back 40,000 of them would have been a cinch.

I actually think the recurve bow and longbow have pretty similar range. It would all depend on how smart and organized the D are. Remember that the mongols conquered China, where they were routinely and dramatically outnumbered.

Secondly, horse archers don't attempt to break lines. They just shoot you until you get pissed off, charge after them and are ambushed.

[Anvilbreaker]

For those who compare the dothraki to the Mongols, it is important to remember that the Mongols were a lot more willing to borrow culture and technology. Without the Chinese siege engines the Mongols would have been unable to take the fortified Muslim cities. i don't think the dothraki are that willing to take others technology, plus as has been said, they would be hindered a great deal on most of the terrain. They have no chance in hell of even taking the Iron Islands, and Dorne and the North would also probably kill them. Finally their close range weapons are almost useless, as we see when Barristan fights the valyrian steel arakh

[Terilien]

I actually think the recurve bow and longbow have pretty similar range. It would all depend on how smart and organized the D are. Remember that the mongols conquered China, where they were routinely and dramatically outnumbered.

Secondly, horse archers don't attempt to break lines. They just shoot you until you get pissed off, charge after them and are ambushed.

well that would need to be backed up.

horse archers by necessity have smaller bows, and being mounted, they make far larger targets, so even if the ranges are similar...

EDIT: In fact even crossbows are an effective counter to horse archers.

[Ser Thomas Derpingham]

Assuming the Westerosi have tons of longbowmen, pikemen who won't crap their pants and run, AND the Dothraki don't just go around the chiltron and cut off their supply lines. (Caesar did exactly that when a Roman army came to break his control of italy, and his was a less mobile, primarily infantry force.)

As to that, Westerosi Plate Armor Knights should be tasked with guarding the supply lines. I imagine a whole bunch of the Sers will be frustrated with this minor task, but as the immortal Sandor Clegane said, FUCK YOUR SER.

The pikemen should be seasoned veterans, not green boys and boy whores. I cannot say this would guarantee that they would not break and run at the first Dothraki Screamer charge, but the pikes would destroy the charge. Running away would be an even worse idea, I would say.

You could also reinforce the flanks of the Pikemen with some peasant rabble, or lightly armored skirmishing troops to swoop in from the sides and cut the Dothraki to pieces whilst they are engaged with the Pikemen.