[Book Spoilers] Renly and Loras

[Demonblade]

Without using the words gay or homosexual (because they don't exist as such), many characters state that Renly and Loras don't prefer women. But there's no apparent way you'll agree to that.

Well not to nitpick, but there is nothing that says that there is no word for gay or homosexual in GRRM's world because, well, this is his world and he can do what he wants. And I still think that you are arguing a position that I am not even taking, namely that it is possible that Renly and Loras are not lovers. My issue was that not everybody caught it the first time and that is not due to lack of reading comprehension, because nowhere does it say in the books that they are, in fact, lovers. The reasons why not everybody caught it the first time vary from not catching the clues to interpreting their relationship to that of a deep friendship.

Also, just because characters in the book allude to Renly and Loras being gay does not alone confirm that they're gay. Many people call Tyrion the Imp, but as far as I can tell, he is not a fairy/demon, for example.

[Sand Viper]

An interesting small moment was when Loras gave the flower to Sansa. It showed Renly nodding approvingly at this. IsRenly approving because it was a gesture to help mask Loras' homosexuality? Or is Renly approving because he is party to a Tyrell plot to marry Sansa to Loras instead of Joffrey? A plan which seems to been aborted by the time Littlefinger and the Tyrells are plotting together.

[cripples and broken things]

Just watched the episode and my only thought is that this scene was written so wrongly, and so unnecessary. Yeah, the Tyrells could have gotten Renly up to it. But Loras? Isn't he the one who sleeps with Ceresi after Jamie is gone? I remember reading that Renly might not be all that into guys, but...

He's way too much of a wuss. VARYS has more balls than him.

Actually, it was Lancel she slept with.

[Elenya Westerling]

An interesting small moment was when Loras gave the flower to Sansa. It showed Renly nodding approvingly at this. IsRenly approving because it was a gesture to help mask Loras' homosexuality? Or is Renly approving because he is party to a Tyrell plot to marry Sansa to Loras instead of Joffrey? A plan which seems to been aborted by the time Littlefinger and the Tyrells are plotting together.

I thought it was more of a "get on with it" look rather than a nod of approval :S I could be totally misreading it though.

[Ralf]

I had always pictured Renly as a more charismatic, host of the party. Kinda like an Oscar Wilde type character where they could be gay or straight and no one is really sure but because they know the right things to say to everyone, women and men have crushes on them.

I pictured Renly using the Tyrells as much as them using him. The queen of thrones hints that Loras is gay and hence I thought the Tyrell family to be more accepting then say the Baratheons would have been.

However after watching the episode I wonder is this how GRRM saw it when he was writing and if so how did I get it so wrong and how many other characters have I mis judged :-(

[disaster]

Word of said:

"I'm definitely taking issue with the show taking a massive dump on GRRM's light touch with their relationship. I think some vagueness, less explicit portrayals would do this show a lot of good."

I agree wholeheartedly. Although after reading the angelfire link up above (which I had found on my own after seeing ep.3) which tallies up the clues, I accept that Renly and Loras are probably involved with each other, GRRM was a lot subtler about it than what was portrayed on HBO. GRRM's light touch (on this subject) is lost, probably because of the constraints of time and the differences in the mediums of literature and film (things can easily be stretched out in a book that have to be compacted in an adaptation for film).

I feel that there are far too many changes being made to the books (for a variety of reasons). I am beginning to suspect that GRRM is a victim of his own success, and that the series will turn out quite differently from how he originally envisioned ASOIAF.

[Bad Dog]

The explicitly shown homosexual relationship didn't bother me in the slightest. After all, it's in the book, if only in hints and (pretty clear) remarks from others. What DID bother me was the portrayal of Renly in the show. To me, that just wasn't the cocky, confident Renly we meet in the books, who is good with a lance (no, not in THAT way, get your mind out of the gutter!) and has quite enough ego to crown himself king. The show's Renly was, to simplify it, a big softie.

[truth42033]

Does anyone else find it odd that Renly Baratheon and The Knight of Flowers Ser Loras Tyrell are gay on the HBO show? I've read all the books of SOIF that are out, and never got the homosexual vibe from either. In the books Renly and Loras come across way more badass, where on the show not so much. What are your thoughts about this?

[Dragonfish]

Does anyone else find it odd that Renly Baratheon and The Knight of Flowers Ser Loras Tyrell are gay on the HBO show? I've read all the books of SOIF that are out, and never got the homosexual vibe from either. In the books Renly and Loras come across way more badass, where on the show not so much. What are your thoughts about this?

Renly and Loras are gay in the books. There are numerous hints to this effect, and George himself has confirmed it.

[Brucolac]

It is hinted almost every time Renly makes an appearance in the books. It is an added scene in the show to make it explicit that he and Loras are getting it on, but a bunch of innuendo and jokes about it aren't going to come across well in the time frame they are working with or have appeal to a large audience. Yeah, he is different from the book in the show, but he is homosexual in both. They portray Renly much more idealistically in the series I think; he has modern and almost democratic ideals while in the book, he is self-centered ass. Loras isn't really a badass until the third and fourth book either, there is still time for him to kick some ass as well.

[GhostofWinterfell]

I really disliked the scene, and not because of any homophobia, but rather because I felt like it added a dynamic to the story that wasn't present in the book. Renly was never conveyed as an effeminate man in the books, neither did anybody make veiled suggestions that he was gay. Neither was Loras. In fact, the only insinuation made about Loras in the book was that there may be an incestuous relationship between he and Margaery. Never a gay relationship with Renly though. Regardless of what GRRM says about it NOW, I don't believe that was his intent in the original story and I think it feels forced and out of place. A physically weak man with an aversion to seeing blood would never be able to win the hearts and support of the many great southern Lords of Westeros. The portrayal of Renly just doesn't seem to fit with the books portrayal at all.

[Ran]

You're incredibly wrong. Martin has explicitly stated that Loras and Renly were lovers from 2001, at least. In an interview, he noted that part of the inspiration for Loras was Piers Gaveston, a tourney champion of his day, and a favorite of Edward II... so much so that it was suggested contemporaneously and by historians that they were in fact lovers.

As to no one implying it in the "original story"?

"There are those who say Ser Loras is better than Leo Longthorn ever was," said Tyrion.

"Renly's little rose? I doubt that."

"Your commander, so long as you wear that white cloak. Now sheathe your bloody sword, or I'll take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found."

Oberyn and Jaime certainly imply it. Loras Tyrell's remark about having lost his true love and no one else being able to replace it, his mild outrage at Sansa suggesting that Margaery's grief about Renly's death were greater than his own, the whole thing about the private place only he and Renly knew, the fact that Renly's servants apparently had to be good at keeping secrets because of all the things that must have gone on in his household, Arianne Martell remarking that despite all of her efforts to flirt and entice Renly he was quite uninterested...

It's all there, for those with eyes to see it.

I'll grant that the character in the show is otherwise rather different from Renly in the novel, shaped -- I think -- to the strengths of Gethin Anthony, and I think he did very well. But the homosexuality? It's in the story. It's not in AGoT, but from ACoK on there were hints, and as I said, it's been an acknowledged fact by GRRM for at least a decade.

[GhostofWinterfell]

Well, I hadn't noticed those references before, so you may be right. That still doesn't change that Renly's character got the shaft (no pun intended) in the show. In the book he was portrayed as a dead ringer for Robert in his glory days, a charismatic and loyalty-inspiring leader. He's a weakling on the show. Not only that, but the scene shows Loras trying to persuade Renly that he should be king.... I don't like this because it changes the strory to say that Renly and Loras were conspiring to make him King while Robert still sat the throne. Renly was loyal to his brother, there was nothing in the books that suggested he wanted to remove Robert from the throne.

It seems like they added that to try and give him a motivation to crown himself after Roberts death - bit he already had a motivation. His brother had been murdered and he knew the Lannisters were responsible. Why add the nonsense about Loras telling him he should be king whilst giving him a BJ? The books portray Renly as a stronger character than someone who could be manipulated by a secret lover.

[thi4f]

I hope you have nothing against thread necromancy - I figured it's better to post in a well established thread than start a new one, 4 years after Season 1 aired.

I watched the episode recently and didn't have a problem with Renly and Loras intimate moments presentation. I found Renly's portrayal much more problematic. He was a very popular and charismatic man, winning allies with his kindness and masculinity. He was also very ambitious and reasonable - maybe not a political genius, but certainly aware of his strengths, weaknesses and current situation. I'm tempted to claim that Renly Baratheon was one of the brightest stars early in the series and him getting killed was a huge loss to Seven Kingdoms.

For God's sake, he gathered 80k men army in blink of an eye, and best Westerosian knights and commanders were eager to serve him. He was a championship-caliber quarterback, you know?

Unfortunately, I don't see these traits in TV show. I can't say anything positive about him other than he's a nice fellow. Weak, average, no leadership, nothing 'cool' about him.

Should I expect more butchering of House Baratheon?