[Book Spoilers] Renly and Loras

[Tywin's bastard]

Why should it be some kind of shocking revelation? It's no big deal. And it's not "shouted out" any more than all the heterosexual coupling going on in the show, eg Theon and the prostitute at the start of this episode which you say was "awesome".

Exactly. In context of how the heterosexual sex is just a couple of steps from being porn I actually laugh when I see people say that the homosexual parts were too explicit. It's so clear to see where these complaints really come from. As for the sounds, again we heard the exact same things in the first episode.

[Manderly`s Personal Chef]

I always imagined Renly to be much more masculine than he is in the series. I mean, come on! Afraid of his own blood? Loras convincing him to take the crown for his own? But I still do like that Loras has a bigger role than he did in the book.

[Ormond]

As I said on the main thread about the episode, I have mixed emotions on this issue.

I can understand the desire to have the presentation of Loras and Renly's sexuality be more slowly revealed as it is in the books, as it does remove some of the fun of "figuring things out." And I agree that they are playing too much to modern gay stereotypes both by using the shaving of body hair and by showing Renly as being both thin and foppish. As was said on the main thread, Loras and Renly are a bit too much Abercrombie and Fitch models to be realistic for the medieval setting. And they could have shown just as much intimacy and trust by simply having Loras shaving Renly's neck and cheeks instead of his chest and armpits.

On the other hand, it is a bit odd to be complaining about the Renly & Loras scene and NOT complaining about some of the other added "sex scenes" in the series. It would certainly be possible to impart the information that we got in the "Viserys and the slave girl in the bath" scene, or the "Theon and Roz" scene, without having the soft porn sex. But unfortunately, that's to be expected because this series is on HBO. It seems that HBO has a sexual titillation factor in most of their series and I suspect that the creators of Game of Thrones knew that they had to include such scenes in order for HBO to be happy. It's perhaps unfortunate that the definition of "adult" in visusal entertainment focuses so much on graphic sex, but that's the way it is. We just can't expect subtlety about any couple's sexual relationship in scenes where they are alone in this series.

[smegma]

Ahh I didn't realize there was a thread devoted to Loras and Renly, so better to be posted here.

Just to reiterate what I've said elsewhere: their scene was tame as all hell compared to many in the series. The shaving part was a nice touch, in my opinion, as there was an intimacy there that showed the level of trust and comfort with one another. There was even a line about how Loras wanted HIM and not just any other boy. These two are in a relationship, and for all the shittastic ones in the books, it was one of the more loving ones.

I'm also glad there was no big reveal. It shouldn't be questionable or surprising that there exists gay people in this world, especially since the author intended it as such. With the exception of a few naive characters, EVERYONE in the book seemed to know it. The audience should as well. It will make the marriage of Renly and Margarey for political moves all that more apparent.

The scene also introduces the Tyrells in a BIG "get noticed" kinda way, and set them up for their big power plays that occur later on. They are a huge part of the series and it's an interesting take to have Loras be their first "in". I actually really like that, and considering they were conspiring for Robert to marry Margarey it's not all far of a leap.

I also think it's important to consider the context of these moves. The show is really hanging their hat on the "power plays" that each house is making. By showing these designs, it is setting up these characters and their families in the "game" and that everyone has designs on the throne - and taking different routes to get there. Renly's subsequent declaration and moves will all make more sense and have greater impact later on.

Also, I think they really wanted to make Renly vastly different than his brother in a very obvious way. Loras plants those seeds in his head as to why Renly would be the best choice (and his aversion to blood, is imo, symbolic for this Renly's distaste of violence - this is not just a younger Robert).

Anyway, I'm a big fan of Renly in the books, and I'm a total HBO apologist too so take all of that as you will.

Also Gethin Anthony is super cute and my teenage daughter thought that Finn Jones was hot :P

[Xxtayce]

I think the whole point behind Cersei's "There's no way Margary was a virgin... she was married to Renly!" was that the relationship between Loras/Renly was not as obvious to all of King's Landing as this thread makes it seem. If their relationship was more ambiguous - at least in the beginning - it would give Cersei's claims more weight.

Renly was always like the anti-Stannis to me. Stannis is cold, non-politicial, too honorable, and overly unlikeable. This whole episode gives the impression that Renly was the wussy laughing stock of the entire kingdom. Being forced by Loras towards the crown gives him zero magnetism or charisma. Loras was the charismatic one in the relationship this way.

This whole scene was just wrong to me.

And as I mentioned elsewhere, it was equally as boring/worthless as the Viserys/Doreah bathtub scene. Both would have been much better with about ten minutes less of everything.

[Tywin's bastard]

As I said on the main thread about the episode, I have mixed emotions on this issue.

I can understand the desire to have the presentation of Loras and Renly's sexuality be more slowly revealed as it is in the books, as it does remove some of the fun of "figuring things out." And I agree that they are playing too much to modern gay stereotypes both by using the shaving of body hair and by showing Renly as being both thin and foppish. As was said on the main thread, Loras and Renly are a bit too much Abercrombie and Fitch models to be realistic for the medieval setting. And they could have shown just as much intimacy and trust by simply having Loras shaving Renly's neck and cheeks instead of his chest and armpits.

On the other hand, it is a bit odd to be complaining about the Renly & Loras scene and NOT complaining about some of the other added "sex scenes" in the series. It would certainly be possible to impart the information that we got in the "Viserys and the slave girl in the bath" scene, or the "Theon and Roz" scene, without having the soft porn sex. But unfortunately, that's to be expected because this series is on HBO. It seems that HBO has a sexual titillation factor in most of their series and I suspect that the creators of Game of Thrones knew that they had to include such scenes in order for HBO to be happy. It's perhaps unfortunate that the definition of "adult" in visusal entertainment focuses so much on graphic sex, but that's the way it is. We just can't expect subtlety about any couple's sexual relationship in scenes where they are alone in this series.

ASOAIF has more than medieval influences though and it's not just in the modern time that some people have shaved more than their faces.

As for subtlety, it should be pretty logical to expect the same subtlety, or lack thereof, in sex as in violence. Showing graphic violence isn't really less cheap than showing graphic nudity (not that any of the two has to be cheap though).

[Ormond]

As for subtlety, it should be pretty logical to expect the same subtlety, or lack thereof, in sex as in violence. Showing graphic violence isn't really less cheap than showing graphic nudity (not that any of the two has to be cheap though).

I never meant to imply that I thought there was a difference in "cheapness" between sex and violence here.

Unfortunately, American culture in general often doesn't agree with me or you on that issue.

[WordOf]

I never got the feeling that Renly's sexual orientation was a matter of public knowledge. Despite GRRM saying he never intended to hide it, he also never made it very obvious. At least it was open to interpretation. The show takes a massive hammer and bolts it into your brain - here's how it is, eat it.

As Xxtayce pointed out, if Renly being gay was the worst kept secret in the realms, Cersei's doubts as to Margaery's virginity would be laughed away or disregarded. While they didn't hold any great weight, it's still a very good point.

[Tywin's bastard]

I never meant to imply that I thought there was a difference in "cheapness" between sex and violence here.

Unfortunately, American culture in general often doesn't agree with me or you on that issue.

I didn't really mean to say you implied it either. It was just meant as a continuation on what you said, although I could have made that clearer.

[Ormond]

As Xxtayce pointed out, if Renly being gay was the worst kept secret in the realms, Cersei's doubts as to Margaery's virginity would be laughed away or disregarded. While they didn't hold any great weight, it's still a very good point.

I don't think GRRM himself has necessarily thought this out clearly, but it really isn't a contradiction for people to know that Renly prefers other males and yet to believe that he would have had sex with Margaery.

Being gay does NOT mean that a man can't sexually perform with a woman if he really needs to. There are plenty of examples of gay men who have been heterosexually married and had kids in our own time. This would be even more likely in a world where, as GRRM himself has pointed out, there really was no conception of lifelong exclusive homosexual orientation as we understand it today.

Most modern historians believe James I of England was gay, and he was able to father seven children with his wife, Anne of Denmark.

So Cersei's belief about Margaery doesn't necessarily mean she didn't know Renly preferred males. It just may mean that she believes Renly would have done his duty as a royal husband and managed to consummate his marriage, anyway.

[smegma]

Yeah not that I want to get into a debate about being gay, but it certainly doesn't preclude someone from having been married to a woman or even having children. Sexuality is a complex thing and there are tons of gay men out there that have fathered children - I know more than a few myself, and history has shown that to be the case as well. So Margery COULD have been deflowered by Renly, although perhaps it likely didn't happen. I wonder if we'll get to see maybe a conficted Loras and Renly in season two - knowing that Renly has to eventually do the deed, but not wanting him to or something like that.

[Talleyrand]

I was fine with the scene and mostly ok with Loras' ambition but like others the portrayal of Renly annoyed me. I always got the feeling that the rest of the realm thought he was a ladies man because of the way he acted. I also thought that he was scared of blood or fighting.

[Tyrionsnose]

Aside from the imagery of the scene, I really liked the dynamic they are setting up with Renly as a usurper being backed by the Tyrells. It sets up early that the Tyrells have designs on a crown, yet another player in the GOT.

Also, Littlefinger let it be known that he knows Renly's secret, further ingraining the image of LF as a much of a player in the espionage and spy game as Varys.

I think this scene will set up Loras's rage when Renly is killed. It also sets up Renly approaching Ned about seizing the throne.

That said, I could have done w/o the sucking noise, same as the 1st episode. We get it.

[Abaddon]

As an aside, the only thing that took me aback in the R&L scene was that Renly was scheming to replace Robert. I may have missed it in the books, but I thought Renly was very supportive of Robert, and it was only when Robert was removed from the picture that Renly's dynastic ambitions surfaced.

If so, it's an interesting change from the books. It's definitely supported by Renly's disgust with Robert, which I also don't recall from the books.

Did I miss this or was it different?

[Songstress]

I think the whole point behind Cersei's "There's no way Margary was a virgin... she was married to Renly!" was that the relationship between Loras/Renly was not as obvious to all of King's Landing as this thread makes it seem. If their relationship was more ambiguous - at least in the beginning - it would give Cersei's claims more weight.

But the actual quote from Cersei in AFFC makes it clear she DID know Renly was gay:

Mace Tyrell claimed his daughter was still virgin, but Cersei had her doubts. Joffrey had been murdered before he could bed the girl, but she had been wed to Renly first . . . A man may prefer the taste of hippocras, yet if you set a tankard of ale before him, he will quaff it quick enough. She must command Lord Varys to find out what he could.

She just figured, as has already been stated, that Renly would "do his duty" and consummate the marriage, perhaps try to produce an heir if he's going to be king. It was a reasonable assumption for her to make, even understanding Renly's preferences. My brother is gay, but he was married twice and fathered 4 children before deciding to come out of the closet to our family.

The only real reason so many people were surprised by Renly and Loras is that neither of them was a POV character, so we never got into either of their heads or got to spend any "alone time" with them in the novels. Their relationship was perceived as subtle because they weren't hanging on one another in public, and people didn't gossip about them incessantly as if it was something shocking.

However, I do agree that, while I like Gethin Anthony well enough, I'm not 100% behind the decision to change Renly from the book portrayal. I'm enjoying the show too much to let that nit-pick ruin it for me, though. And I do love the fact that they're setting up Renly's decision to claim the throne in ACOK. It'll make so much more sense this way. :)

[Lord Varys]

I actually like this more insecure version of Renly, as this much more resembles how Renly is shown in AGoT, than the person he is supposed to be. Renly is best a tertiary character in AGoT (if we say the POVs are protagonists, and Viserys, Robert, Littlefinger, Cersei, and the like are secondary characters); he may be handsome, popular, and an average jouster, but that's not really important, as his dialogue and behavior is very much forgettable. He is cowardly yes-sayer on the Small Council, he's personality is not flashed out in detail by the author, and you are very much surprised when he declares himself King at the head of huge army, as the author did not tell us that House Tyrell is the strongest house in Westeros.

And GRRM made also mistakes when describing Renly in ACoK, which is also an indication that he did not think that much about this character. I don't mean the changed eye color (green to Baratheon blue), but the fact that Renly very much contradicts himself when he first considers his brother Stannis as an ally and is very much surprised by the siege of Storm's End, and then later reveals that he knew about Stannis own bid for the Iron Throne via Lord Tarly who received one of Stannis' letters (that's how Renly learned that Joffrey and his siblings are supposed to be bastards).

Portraying Renly as a strong and dashing guy in the series would somewhat contradict the feeling the readers of the books got of this character during their first read. Renly becomes only an interesting character on a second or third read, when you start thinking about what might have happened if Renly had not died, or acted differently when Robert died.

Renly being insecure and unexperienced as a warrior is also a good explanation why Tywin and Tyrion are going to see him as an rather insignificant threat in the second season, although his host outnumbers the Lannisters two to one.

Him being the little brother in the shadow of his two elder brothers is also a good motivation for his bid for the Iron Throne. As he was ignorant about the incest, he could very well have done this also to finally earn the approval of Stannis (and Robert's shade). This is making more sense than the 'Look, I am the Raingod' explanation we get in the books. There we are actually lead to believe by the character who knew Renly all his life (Maester Cressen) that he just declared himself King because he thought it would be fun.

Renly's popularity with the people should in the end be most evident when Garlan Tyrell as Renly's ghost kills people on the Blackwater. A guy who never did much/any killing in his life returning from death to save the rightful King would be really powerful symbol.

[Tempra]

On the other hand, it is a bit odd to be complaining about the Renly & Loras scene and NOT complaining about some of the other added "sex scenes" in the series. It would certainly be possible to impart the information that we got in the "Viserys and the slave girl in the bath" scene, or the "Theon and Roz" scene, without having the soft porn sex. But unfortunately, that's to be expected because this series is on HBO. It seems that HBO has a sexual titillation factor in most of their series and I suspect that the creators of Game of Thrones knew that they had to include such scenes in order for HBO to be happy. It's perhaps unfortunate that the definition of "adult" in visusal entertainment focuses so much on graphic sex, but that's the way it is. We just can't expect subtlety about any couple's sexual relationship in scenes where they are alone in this series.

Um people have complained quite a bit about other sex/nude scenes. Does the "ass pan of doom" mean anything to you?

Honestly, I would have prefered some straight up anal sex (as HBO does so well) to a cringe-inducing shaving scene. That scene would be horrible regardless of the sexual orientation of the participants. And the slurping sounds are just corny as hell.

[silkymoonshine]

I think the whole point behind Cersei's "There's no way Margary was a virgin... she was married to Renly!" was that the relationship between Loras/Renly was not as obvious to all of King's Landing as this thread makes it seem. If their relationship was more ambiguous - at least in the beginning - it would give Cersei's claims more weight.

Renly was a king. The war of the 5 kings was caused because Robert left no trueborn children. As Cat points out to Jeyne, the first thing that should be on Robb's mind was producing an heir. The Tyrells certainly know about Loras's homosexuality and his relationship with Renly, but they wanted to Margaery to be a queen and have one of their own to be king when the time comes. I don't think Cersei knew about Renly's sexuality (at least from what was in AFFC), but even if she knew, the Margaery and Renly marriage wasn't about about love or personal preference, they probably consummated their marriage - not because Renly was into her, but because he wanted to consolidate his alliance with the Tyrells and eventually produce an heir. Even if Cersei didn't know, pretty much everyone else did - Littlefinger, Varys, Stannis, Tyrion...

And really, I don't understand the Margaery/Robert plot. To me, it only makes sense if Renly knew Cersei's children weren't Robert's. But if he didn't... what was he looking for? Either Margaery was going to be Robert's official mistress (and based on what the Tyrells want for her, I find it unlikely they would be content with that) or he wanted Robert to put Cersei aside and marry her. What then? Tywin wouldn't stand still at that and the Lannisters were at the time the most or second most powerful family in the kingdom.

Back on topic: I don't like Loras's look. Renly is missing some of the charisma he has in the books, but maybe the actor hasn't had enough time to show it, but otherwise he is fine. The sex scene was rather tame (from what Ran had said, I thought it was going to be a lot more graphic.

Unless there's another one?

) The fact that Loras was the one who put the idea of being king in Renly's head seems fitting, but, again, it makes little sense if they don't know Cersei's children aren't Robert's. Maybe they should have left that conversation to when Robert is dying, I don't know.

[ZombieWife]

First off, I am grossly disappointed in the casting of Renly. He is supposed to look like a young robert, yet leaner and prettier. Also Renly wasn't a complete whiny wimp as he is portrayed so far in the show. So what if he's gay, he was still supposed to be a capable male character, not a wimpy whiner. Loras looked fine in his armor, but with his shirt off...the guy couldn't even lift a lance, let alone use one. I wouldn't have had any problem with the Loras on Renly scene if they didn't write Renly as such a milk-toast, and loras all of 115 pounds. Yes I know Loras was supposed to be thin, but you can still have some muscle and be thin.

Think about that Loras heading into dragonstone first. They wouldn't need to douse him in oil, they could just break his back with a poke from a stick.

I agree with some of the sentiment here, but not all.

First, I'm a bit put off by Renly so far, but not because of the actor. I think he looks like Addy, so no issue there. But, they aren't giving Renly much to do . . . at.all. There is no depth to him, nothing that makes me care for him as a television series character leading up to the Loras scene.

I feel like the actor is a good one, but he hasn't been loosed upon the audience yet to show us what he's made of. Perhaps in season 2?

I also agree that one can be thin and muscular. Look at Alfie Allen. Granted, he is a Greyjoy and he's been in Winterfell where the young men all have abs of steel and nice pecs. :)

[Ser Warpechowski]

I approve of them trying to setup Renly's ambitions better. There really wasn't much to explain it in the books.

They are certainly doing some heavy foreshadowing with this and the Theon scenes for season 2.

I think they did it now and spent so much time on Theon because from now on too much will happen in KL and the dothraki horde that The Wall and Winterfell will probabily become less important.