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themadking

Jeyne Westerling

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I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, and sorry if it has, but one of my friends pointed out to me that Jeyne Westerling was switched, and that she was not actually captured at Riverrun and being sent back to the Crag. In the original description of Jeyne Westerling when Catelyn meets her in SOS, she is described as "pretty, undeniably, with her chestnut curls and heart-shaped face, and that shy smile. Slender, but with good hips, Catelyn noted. She would have no trouble bearing children at least." However, in FFC, when Jaime sees her for the first time, "she did not look dangerous. Jeyne was a willowy girl, no more than fifteen or sixteen, more awkward than graceful. She had narrow hips, breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe. Pretty enough for a child, Jaime decided, but not a girl to lose a kingdom for."

The descriptions are completely different, most notably the part about the hips, which turn from good child-bearing hips, to slender hips. Has the real Jeyne gone off with the Blackfish?

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I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, and sorry if it has, but one of my friends pointed out to me that Jeyne Westerling was switched, and that she was not actually captured at Riverrun and being sent back to the Crag. In the original description of Jeyne Westerling when Catelyn meets her in SOS, she is described as "pretty, undeniably, with her chestnut curls and heart-shaped face, and that shy smile. Slender, but with good hips, Catelyn noted. She would have no trouble bearing children at least." However, in FFC, when Jaime sees her for the first time, "she did not look dangerous. Jeyne was a willowy girl, no more than fifteen or sixteen, more awkward than graceful. She had narrow hips, breasts the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe. Pretty enough for a child, Jaime decided, but not a girl to lose a kingdom for."

The descriptions are completely different, most notably the part about the hips, which turn from good child-bearing hips, to slender hips. Has the real Jeyne gone off with the Blackfish?

Yep there was a thread about this a month or so back but its one of my favorite topics so I'll give my opinion here too. I'm of the opinion that she might have been switched. More because of Edmure being "much to happy about something" for a man being sent off to Casterly Rock for the rest of his life. But who knows. It might have been the real Jeyne and maybe Jaime just has a different view of hips than Cat does. But I personally doubt it.

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Isn't there a Shakira song called "Hips don't lie"?

Yes.

I like the theory that Jeyne may have been switched, but what gives me pause is: the Blackfish escaped by swimming out. Would he have been able to do that towing a pregnant teenaged girl along? Not impossible, I guess, but it seems improbable to me.

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Almost positive she is pregnant with Robb's child and was smuggled out. How exactly I am not entirely sure.

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I thought we were to believe the (in)fertility smoothie her mum was making was doing its work in preventing a pregnancy... Unless that was just to tell us her family's intent.

A son of Robb is just too happy a thought for me to believe at the moment.

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I thought we were to believe the (in)fertility smoothie her mum was making was doing its work in preventing a pregnancy... Unless that was just to tell us her family's intent.

A son of Robb is just too happy a thought for me to believe at the moment.

Yeah it would be awesome but I don't know if it's just wishful thinking or if there were hints that people picked up on about her being pregnant.

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Anyone else have the image of Jeyne Westerling boogeying around the Crag to Shakira while drinking an Infertility Smoothie burned into their minds now?

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Well, Martin has been known to give characters different eye colors in different books so the discrepency might just be a mistake. But it does seem very odd that both descriptions mention her hips but they are a completely different size. The rest of the differences between the descriptions can be put down to the differences between Catelyn's bias and Jamie's bias but Jeyne's hips are either small or they're not. So I definitely think it is possible GRRM is hinting that Jeyne has been switched with another woman.

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Crackpot theory but maybe the Blackfish took her with him, because Robb wants here to marry Jon. Rob clearly knew his days were numbered and made plans on what should take place after he was gone.

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So I definitely think it is possible GRRM is hinting that Jeyne has been switched with another woman.

yes, and we do how GRRM likes to replay the same trick.

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I would like to believe that Jeyne was switched, but I just don't think it happened, for a few reasons. We know that Sybell was giving Jeyne infertility potions and that she was working with Tywin to plan the Red Wedding. If she was willing to eliminate Robb, why would she further risk her own neck to then betray Tywin by sneaking her own child that is pregnant with Robb's child out of Riverrun and then putting an imposter in her place?

On the flip side of that Catelyn mentions Jeyne's wide hips twice in SoS, and Jaime thinks they are too thin in FfC. :dunno:

This theory is one of the "I-wish-it-was-true-but-I-know-it-wont-be" ones for me.

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I love Martin's ability to make us think, rethink, and then think again about a plausible theory. Especially about things we "want" to be true. While I did notice the hip thing during my reads, I more or less dismissed it for two reasons.

One, as mentioned before, is Sybell going along with the deception, which I can't see.

Two, Martin doing this on purpose, because he takes a weird kind of pleasure torturing us. We want to believe this, therefore we will spend time pondering it instead of other things he wants hidden, and the fact that it was two totally different people describing the girl. Two people of a different sex and mentality, and possibly completely different views on whats attractive on a woman. A good red herring for Martin to tease us with.

Despite that, I hope she is with the Blackfish (I like that guy, and I like her).

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Crackpot theory but maybe the Blackfish took her with him, because Robb wants here to marry Jon. Rob clearly knew his days were numbered and made plans on what should take place after he was gone.

Um. No. Go ahead and re-read the AFFC chapter where Jaime meets Lady Westerling and her daughter, and then escorts the Westerlings et al from Riverrun. Lady Westerling was working on Tywin's behalf the entire time, feeding her daughter the Moon Tea, as reflected in what she said to Jaime. She is the Lannister's creature, and has plans for her family that can only depend on Jaime's good will, so I can see absolutely no reason why she would pretend that the girl is not her daughter. If the girl was an imposter, entirely too many people would have to be in on the secret, and eventually Jaime or another Lannister would know as well. The Westerlings, entirely dependent on the Lannisters, would be destroyed.

Saying that Jeyne escaped with the Blackfish, and the Westerlings are covering it up, is entirely too far fetched: again, too many loose lips among those seeking to curry favor with their new lords.

Besides, GRRM has worked this trick before, with the fake Arya shipped up to the Boltons with their complicity. He wouldn't whip it out again just to create some more drama up in the Riverlands.

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Theoreticaly it would be plausible for Sybill Westerling to suddenly switch sides due to a vision; after all she is a descendant of Maegi the Frog. I can imagine situation around the Red Wedding when she has sort of vision regarding, for example, the others invasion and why Starks are necessary ( maybe that the Wall will fall if there are no Starks in the north). It too late to do anything about the RW, but she still san save Jayne's child and smuggle it somewhere whith its mother.

However I find it hard to believe - we have after all no evidence to support it.

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If Maegi the Frog is indeed the mother of Sybil Westerling, I absolutely think they will in someway help the Starks from now on despite their supposed part in the betrayal. Maegi was obviously bad news for Cersei, making a kind off self-fulfilling prophecy for her, and I doubt the rest of the family will prove to have been useful to Tywin/the Lannisters in the long term.

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What I think is that the tea that Jeyne's mom made for her made her unable to ever concieve. I remember that Martin told one of his fans how these sorts of 'cocktails' are very dangerous and can cause adverse affects on any woman that takes them. Its hard to say though because its equally likely that they did indeed do some form of switch or that Martin just made a mistake, which I'm inclined to doubt.

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I don't think it impossible for Sybil Spicer to be playing more than one angle. She was arguably doing that when she foisted her daughter on Robb while keeping her options open with Tywin. It's possible she's doing the opposite here. Having a heir to the north in her pocket is probably worth the very minor chance of discovery.

I think this is more likely and consistent with the style of loyalty in the books than her hard switching to either side.

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Maybe I'm saying the biggest bullshit ever,and since it's been a while since I last read AFFC,I may be totally wrong but...isn't there a Jeyne in the BWB,when Brienne is captured by them?Couldn't she be the real Jeyne,that was brought there in some way (we know that the BWB were around Riverrun)and now seeks revenge for Robb's death together with Catelyn?

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I'm in the ''I hope it's true'' camp. The problem is, it's just a too obvious difference of the two characterizations to be just a mistake. Why would GRRM mention it otherwise. The red herring theory would be on the other hand much more believable.

It's some time since I last read AFFC and I'm not quite there yet in preparation of ADWD. So I'm not that sure but IIRC didn't Jeyne had a one or two years younger sister which could be the one impersonating her?

I think her mother just played it safe. From her point of view it would have been better if Robb had won. But since she was careful, she at least made some precautions if something went wrong. Maybe it was especially because of the Castamere story why she thought it necessary to at least try to have a plan B.

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