Jeyne Westerling

[menino]

The one thing that makes me believe Jeyne was switched is that she is a descendent of the Maegi who told Cersei she would be replaced by a younger woman. Even though Cersei thinks it's Margarey, I think it will be Jeyne b/c of the bloodlines.

[Jon Snow 2011]

The one thing that makes me believe Jeyne was switched is that she is a descendent of the Maegi who told Cersei she would be replaced by a younger woman. Even though Cersei thinks it's Margarey, I think it will be Jeyne b/c of the bloodlines.

Jeyne seems far-fetched to me. Seems like Daenerys is much more likely.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Jeyne seems far-fetched to me. Seems like Daenerys is much more likely.

I think Cersei is right about it being Marg.

Cersei cared about her children. Marg was almost certainly part of the conspiracy to kill Joffery (otherwise, why would she question Sansa with the QoT about Joffery and then not seemed concerned by what Sansa told her?) and possibly the actual poisoner. Tommen is being increasingly influenced by her. At the beginning of AFfC his favorite part of being king is playing with the wax, yet later in the book he honestly wants to start learning to rule based on what Marg told him. That is two out three already with three books to go.

Cersei cares about her power. By pushing Tommen to start learning to rule, she is challenging Cersei's authority. Cersei even thinks that its her time, and Tommen can learn later. And whether or not Marg intentionally supported Cersei's bad conspiracy against her, the conspiracy against Marg looks to be Cersei's downfall. Even if Cersei makes it out of it, she will have lost serious power (like her master of ships stealing her new and expensive fleet).

[Jon Snow 2011]

I think Cersei is right about it being Marg.

Cersei cared about her children. Marg was almost certainly part of the conspiracy to kill Joffery (otherwise, why would she question Sansa with the QoT about Joffery and then not seemed concerned by what Sansa told her?) and possibly the actual poisoner. Tommen is being increasingly influenced by her. At the beginning of AFfC his favorite part of being king is playing with the wax, yet later in the book he honestly wants to start learning to rule based on what Marg told him. That is two out three already with three books to go.

Cersei cares about her power. By pushing Tommen to start learning to rule, she is challenging Cersei's authority. Cersei even thinks that its her time, and Tommen can learn later. And whether or not Marg intentionally supported Cersei's bad conspiracy against her, the conspiracy against Marg looks to be Cersei's downfall. Even if Cersei makes it out of it, she will have lost serious power (like her master of ships stealing her new and expensive fleet).

You make good points. However, Maggy's prophecy said that the one who would replace Cercei is more beautiful than Cersei. No one in the books ever questions that Marg is very attractive, but they have also never said that Marg is more beautiful than Cersei. In fact, many people have commented on how beautiful Cersei is. Who else in the series is referred to in the same manner as Cersei? Dany.

In further support of my position, Cersei has not been supplanted by Marg yet. Yes, Cersei THINKS that Marg is trying to supplant her (and you provide support in your post to that effect). However, Cersei is very paranoid by the end of AFoC and not thinking clearly. SHe was seeing enemies everywhere. The only person she could think of that could supplant her was Marg. Little does she know, but drop-dead gorgeous Dany, the rightful Queen, is gonna rain fire on Cersei's parade.

[menino]

Jeyne seems far-fetched to me. Seems like Daenerys is much more likely.

Far fetched is the name of the game. "likely' often indicates very little.

[TheFrenchFish]

In order for Jeyne to have been "switched", the bitch of a mother would have been involved. She wouldn't risk the family for this..I mean she's there with Jeyne throughout or I need to read that part again in Feast.

[Drowned Princess]

The discrepency between Jaime and Catelyn's description is just proof that Cersei has a lot of junk in the trunk and Jamie likes back.

Yes! I reckon Jaime just likes 'em bootylicious, whilst Catelyn's just looking for breeding. I have supposedly slender hips e.g. not fat, yet they are also proportionately large compared to waist e.g. child-bearing. She has hips, doesn't look like a boy, end of.

If there's an heir to the North I think it messes up the stories for the other Starks too much. It pretty much de-values Sansa altogether, or sets us up for yet more tragic baby-killing. We've always known there are unreliable narrators (see: Sansa 'kissing' The Hound) why would we now be focusing so much on disagreeing perceptions of one feature on a woman?

[Galen M]

We've always known there are unreliable narrators (see: Sansa 'kissing' The Hound) why would we now be focusing so much on disagreeing perceptions of one feature on a woman?

Because he included it. He would not have mentioned it if there was no reason to specifically mention her hips. With the Hound, GRRM has says that will be significant later.

[morbiczer]

Because he included it. He would not have mentioned it if there was no reason to specifically mention her hips. With the Hound, GRRM has says that will be significant later.

It was significant. We had something to argue about for 6 years. And since I do not think this particular storyline will come up in ADWD, we will have 5-6 more years to argue about it.

You see? That's how much GRRM loves us! :)

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

You make good points. However, Maggy's prophecy said that the one who would replace Cercei is more beautiful than Cersei. No one in the books ever questions that Marg is very attractive, but they have also never said that Marg is more beautiful than Cersei. In fact, many people have commented on how beautiful Cersei is. Who else in the series is referred to in the same manner as Cersei? Dany.

In further support of my position, Cersei has not been supplanted by Marg yet. Yes, Cersei THINKS that Marg is trying to supplant her (and you provide support in your post to that effect). However, Cersei is very paranoid by the end of AFoC and not thinking clearly. SHe was seeing enemies everywhere. The only person she could think of that could supplant her was Marg. Little does she know, but drop-dead gorgeous Dany, the rightful Queen, is gonna rain fire on Cersei's parade.

Beauty is entirely subjective. Obviously Marg is attractive enough for Cersei to consider her a threat.

I just do not think it can be Dany because A) Cersei already lost Joffery and Dany had nothing to do with it and B) I do not think Cersei will still be around by time Dany invades Westros.

[Asarlai]

I would like to believe that Jeyne was switched, but I just don't think it happened, for a few reasons. We know that Sybell was giving Jeyne infertility potions and that she was working with Tywin to plan the Red Wedding. If she was willing to eliminate Robb, why would she further risk her own neck to then betray Tywin by sneaking her own child that is pregnant with Robb's child out of Riverrun and then putting an imposter in her place?

"Mom, I'm pregnant!"

"Shit shit shit shit shit, now they won't believe I was working for them!"

So there's a chance.

The hips thing makes me think it's not her. Though I don't think she's pregnant; it's just too unlikely and would be too good of a break.

[Silverin]

"Mom, I'm pregnant!"

"Shit shit shit shit shit, now they won't believe I was working for them!"

So there's a chance.

The hips thing makes me think it's not her. Though I don't think she's pregnant; it's just too unlikely and would be too good of a break.

Yeah but if she is not pregnant what is the point of the swithch?

Ok here is a scenario how it could happen I know it is my wishful thinking, but still. After she had the talk with Cat, she said to Jeyne that she should work on getting pregnant, maybe she decided to ask help from the maester in Riverland. Think about it, she drinks the stuff her mother gives her, yet there is still no luck. Not to mention her mom does not have a certificate. If it is so, the maester could have gave her something and said it is better if she wont mix up the poitons. That is a scenario. Or the things that Sybill gives her is not 100% accurete.

But I agree, about it would be too good. I mean we are talking about a possible Stark here, and seeming their luck in the books, good thing rarely happen with them. But again then what is the matter with the hips. Because Cat was strongly fixated on that. She was like: Oh Robb wath the hell did you do! Disaster!.... well at least she has good hips. And she mentions it at least two times (maybe even more). Not to mention one of the Cately chapters actually ends with this, as LAST sentence :

The girl did seem to have a good heart, just as Robb had said. And good hips, which might be more important.

It seems to me, that the last sentences in the chapters usually have pretty much importance in the novel.

[Asarlai]

Yeah but if she is not pregnant what is the point of the swithch?

I don't know. Maybe her mother wanted to spare her daughter whatever ravages she believes the Lannisters might put the brief "Queen of the North" through.

Ok here is a scenario how it could happen I know it is my wishful thinking, but still. After she had the talk with Cat, she said to Jeyne that she should work on getting pregnant, maybe she decided to ask help from the maester in Riverland. Think about it, she drinks the stuff her mother gives her, yet there is still no luck. Not to mention her mom does not have a certificate. If it is so, the maester could have gave her something and said it is better if she wont mix up the poitons. That is a scenario. Or the things that Sybill gives her is not 100% accurete.

Hm, the thing with the maestar does sound possible. And yeah, modern birth control isn't 100% accurate (something like 1 in 1000 still get pregnant in a year), so I don't imagine a tea of leaves and berries would be any better than hard science.

But I agree, about it would be too good. I mean we are talking about a possible Stark here, and seeming their luck in the books, good thing rarely happen with them. But again then what is the matter with the hips. Because Cat was strongly fixated on that. She was like: Oh Robb wath the hell did you do! Disaster!.... well at least she has good hips. And she mentions it at least two times (maybe even more). Not to mention one of the Cately chapters actually ends with this, as LAST sentence :

It seems to me, that the last sentences in the chapters usually have pretty much importance in the novel.

Yes, it really hit home. A quick first thought had been that something might happen when the girl births children, but that was before what happened to Robb. Ending her introductory chapter with saying that it's important that she has wide hips really sets up telling us that the lookalike with narrow hips isn't her.

[Silverin]

Yes, it really hit home. A quick first thought had been that something might happen when the girl births children, but that was before what happened to Robb. Ending her introductory chapter with saying that it's important that she has wide hips really sets up telling us that the lookalike with narrow hips isn't her.

Actually it is not in her introductory chapter (Cat mentions the hip size in that as well). It is in the next Cat chapter where Cat had the talk with her and she leaves, after that her thinking the above sentence is how the chapter ends.

So I think, thats why it was the last sentence too. If it would only had mentioned once, in somewhere I could accept that yeah, just minor different in opinions. But to put such emphasize on that characteristic deffinietly points that it is something to pay attention for.

EDIT:

I don't know. Maybe her mother wanted to spare her daughter whatever ravages she believes the Lannisters might put the brief "Queen of the North" through.

Yeah it can be. Especially after her son died as well. She has less and less reason to trust in the Lannisters after the RW. And again, the freis were really dissapointed to not see Jeyne at the wedding, so I assume she was supposed to be killed off as well, so even if Sybell didnt know this, she is smart enough to guess what would have happened to Jeyne.

Not to mention the marriage proposals Jaime offers her are not that great, one of them is a bastard. (I know it happened after the supposed "switch") So maybe even if Jeyne didnt become pregnant, it would still be a smart decision. Especially since we know, that Jaime gave order that if the supposed Jeyne were to try an escape, she should be killed off.

But still a wolf cub in her belly... :wub:

[Lord Godric]

This is an essential point for grasping the circumstances. (It could be untrue, but only through contortions that I don't think Martin would require of readers to get at the truth.) The point is: Sybell did NOT know about the RW beforehand (though she probably knew Robb would be killed, as she was promised a husband for Jeyne). The proof of her ignorance is that she allowed Raynald to both become thoroughly loyal to Robb, and to attend the RW, where he was in mortal danger and apparently killed. Her devotion to her offspring seems standard for noble ladies, and is further demonstrated in this particular instance by the fact that all of her rewards from the Lannisters are for her children, not for herself personally. By buttressing her personal concern for Raynald, these facts thus corroborate her claim of ignorance as to the the incredibly barbaric RW.

I just read through the Red Wedding scene again, and you are absolutely right. Tywin admits to telling people only the information that they needed to know. So Sybell must not have known that all of Robb's men would be ambushed and attacked as part of the feast. She probably was led to believe somehow Robb would die but her family would be allowed to remain safe.

[Bee]

Isn't it possible that Sybell was with the Lannisters from the start, but Jeyne escapes with Blackfish b/c she is angry at her mother? At this point Sybell is like oh crap I lost my daughter and the Stark heir, the Lannisters will hate me. And that's when she convinces Jeyne's younger sister to impersonate her becuase Sybell couldn't let the Lannisters know she lost her daughter and a potential Stark heir. I am definitely int he camp of people who hope this little mistake is true. I want a little Eddard

[Asha—Not Yara!]

If there's an heir to the North I think it messes up the stories for the other Starks too much. It pretty much de-values Sansa altogether, or sets us up for yet more tragic baby-killing. We've always known there are unreliable narrators (see: Sansa 'kissing' The Hound) why would we now be focusing so much on disagreeing perceptions of one feature on a woman?

If Jeyne has a girl, I don't think it'd devalue Sansa as much as a son. Sansa would have the backing of the Vale to bring to the North compared to what little (virtually none) support the North could get from Jeyne's family. We see example after example of the line of succession not being respected if someone has the wealth and power to grab the title and claim the land for themselves. Still, the patriarchy is so deeply ingrained in the culture, that a son of Robb Stark would be harder I think to dismiss than a daughter, so that's an option Martin could use if he wanted Robb to have a child without derailing the story he planned with the remaining Stark children.

All that said, while I wouldn't mind being proven wrong, I'm pretty convinced all this is wishful thinking on the fans' part and Jeyne's mother did exactly as she said she did and there was no switching whatsoever. Most of this argument stems on the differing hip descriptions which I think is being read far much into. The difference can easily be chalked up to the very subjective and different views Catelyn and Jaime would understandably have when regarding a woman's features.

[Silverin]

All that said, while I wouldn't mind being proven wrong, I'm pretty convinced all this is wishful thinking on the fans' part and Jeyne's mother did exactly as she said she did and there was no switching whatsoever. Most of this argument stems on the differing hip descriptions which I think is being read far much into. The difference can easily be chalked up to the very subjective and different views Catelyn and Jaime would understandably have when regarding a woman's features.

Read my reply the one before my last. Cat's last thought in one of her chapters:

The girl did seem to have a good heart, just as Robb had said. And good hips, which might be more important.

It seems to me after reading all the four books, that the last sentences in the chapters have pretty much importance in the novel.

[Uhtred Stark]

if she was switched... any ideas of what the name of the child will be and when do you think we will find out in the books?

[Faranya]

In order for Jeyne to have been "switched", the bitch of a mother would have been involved. She wouldn't risk the family for this..I mean she's there with Jeyne throughout or I need to read that part again in Feast.

She risked the family in the first place by going with Robb. Even if Robb had married her daughter, she could have kept the rest of them out of it, instead of taking to the field with them.

She seems overly fond of taking risks. I mean, what would have gone down if the maester at Riverrun called bullshit on her fertility drinks while Robb and Co. were still there?