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A Thread For Small Questions VIII


mormont

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But it turns out that Margaery is actually not a maid, and both her and Cersei are convicted rightfully of their respective crimes. Is this really how it is, or is still an elaborate scheme that Margaery/Tyrell's are controlling?

Most likely Margaery lost her maidenhead due to horseback riding. It's quite possible. Even Cersei thinks that is is likely the cause.In reality it is not possible to confirm with certainty that a woman is a virgin by examining her hymen but maybe the Septas don't know that. Though of course not all girls lose it to riding, or something like that.For instance in the books Brienne is riding A LOT, yet Qyburn found that her maidenhead was intact.

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Just finished AffC......wanted to make sure I understood Cersei's last chapter. So, basically Margaery was proven to not be a maid by the septon, which was initiated by Kettleblack confessing falsely by orders of Cersei. Kettleblack gets tortured and confesses everything about Cersei. Cersei gets imprisoned.

So, in the end, both Margaery and Cersei are imprisoned rightly for their respective crimes?

At first I thought it was a well executed plan led by Margaery to have Cersei falsely accuse her of not being a maid. Margaery implants Tanea to mislead the Queen in thinking that Margaery is no longer a maid. When Cersei finally comes up with false evidence (a tortured Singer, Blue Bard), and accuses Margaery, she'll use Trial by Combat to prove her innocence. She would choose Loras, who Cersei was mislead into believing that he was gravely injured during the siege of Dragonstone. Margaery/Tyrells would figure Cersei would choose Jaime, which Margaery/Tyrells want because they know he is no good without his sword hand. Loras wins, Cersei loses credibility possbily the regency, increase the love Margaery gets from the small folk, while at the same time killing off another Lannister in Jaime.

But it turns out that Margaery is actually not a maid, and both her and Cersei are convicted rightfully of their respective crimes. Is this really how it is, or is still an elaborate scheme that Margaery/Tyrell's are controlling?

I do not think that anyone ever planned this to happend (apart from Cersei...).

With all the information we have, there is no reason to believe, that Taena was a Tyrell double agent, because with knowing about Margery being no virgin the Tyrells never would have let Taene make Cersei lead to this decisions. If they would have suspected Cersei being put on trial, they should have known the same for Margery.

I think that Taena had another employe:

1. Littlefinger: He arrenged the marriage and could have made some agreements with Taena in Highgarden (remember, she was part of the court) - and this would fit Littlefinger's earlier attempts to place some double agents near Cersei (Kettleblacks - if you question, why he would sacrifice one of them: he told Sansa, that they are not into absolutly control anymore, because of the ranks they granted).

- I have to admit that I'm noone who wants to give Littlefinger too much credit for all the things happening, but some spots just have his signature, and he's got some opportunty on it.

2. Varys: Taena is from the Free Cities and Varys has his connections there, so maybe he's got his hand on Taena, especially, as he had disappeared from screen - maybe she's his puppet, who provides him some information, he can't gather, because he cannot act free as before.

3. She's just working on her on and trying to make the best for herself and her son. It's a possibilty, but a bit unliky with all the conspiaries before.

BTW: Taena remined me a bit of the story Brienne heared in Duskendale about the wife of the last Darklyn (who captured Aerys), who was also from Myr.

Also, in relation to the AA questions. Was it being implied that Beric Dondarrion was AA after he lights the blade on fire with his blood? Or was that just to throw us off? If he indeed was the Lightbringer, does him sacrificing himself to revive Cat mean she is the Lightbringer? The heat could be felt by Sandor during his duel with Beric, as opposed to no heat from Stannis's blade.

I did never think of Berric as AA. I thought it very clear that the burning sword was some blood magic that was used by both, Berric and Thoros (Thoros used wildfire in his early days, but when he rode with Berric he used blood magic). The whole thing does not match the story of AA and Nissa Nissa. AA had to sacrifice his wife, even to forge the blade, before it was on fire.

So I do not think that there's necesserily a connection.

But that brings me to another thought ;). We all know history alters with the time, it's told and told again. Maybe Lightbringer was only a sword on fire through blood magic ;).

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2. Varys: Taena is from the Free Cities and Varys has his connections there, so maybe he's got his hand on Taena, especially, as he had disappeared from screen - maybe she's his puppet, who provides him some information, he can't gather, because he cannot act free as before.

One bit of evidence that supports this: Varys left the Highgarden coin in Rugen's cell (probably to sow discord between the Lannisters and Tyrells), while Taena told Cersei that the Queen of Thorns carries a chest of such coins around with her. Seems a bit convenient that Taena gives Cersei info that happens to be in line with Varys' plans.

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One bit of evidence that supports this: Varys left the Highgarden coin in Rugen's cell (probably to sow discord between the Lannisters and Tyrells), while Taena told Cersei that the Queen of Thorns carries a chest of such coins around with her. Seems a bit convenient that Taena gives Cersei info that happens to be in line with Varys' plans.

That's true, I didn't think about it in my post.

But I am not so sure about it:

Rugen is one of identities and he himself in his own identy is suspected by Cersei to be part of Tyrion escape. He could also just have set up the coin to draw the attention from himself, so that there that noone thinks he had a hand in the escape. Certainly, the problem with this is, that he seemingly has no good option to return safely, while the Lannisters rule, because there remain questions.

Another problem with the whole thing is: Varys never wanted to saw chaos (like Taena did with guiding Cersei), but to provide order (I think it's the whole thing about him and Littlefinger: Littlefinger takes opportunities from chaos, while Varys tries to provide order and in the end wants to catch the whole thing). But well, Varys situation has changed and he isn't able to control all the things, as he admitted already to Illyrio in AGOT, and now much more, so maybe he had to change plans.

So I think it's just something similar to the Mandon Moore case - we do not have enough information to come to a final judgement.

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That doesn't seem likely to me. IIRc, the pie that Joffrey ate was Tyrion's, whereas the chalice was Joffrey's. So it's far more likely that it was Joffrey's wine that was poisoned.

I do recall that...

Though (and now I have to look again) doesn't Dontos 'handle' the pie just preceeding its consumption by Joffery?

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I do recall that...

Though (and now I have to look again) doesn't Dontos 'handle' the pie just preceeding its consumption by Joffery?

Does he? I don't remember that. Could you provide a citation?

It doesn't seem likely to me, because the poison came from Sansa's hairnet, and one of the crystals didn't go missing until after the feast. So Dontos would have had to grab one of the crystals from Sansa's hairnet during the feast, something that we're never told he does, AFAIK.

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What's the excuse or reason given for Renly and Margaery not consumating their marriage and why is this acceptable? The guy was about to claim the Iron Throne..

he was drunk on glory and wine?

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What's the excuse or reason given for Renly and Margaery not consumating their marriage and why is this acceptable? The guy was about to claim the Iron Throne..

Officially, he never had time.

Unofficially, Renly didn't care to bat for both teams until he absolutely he had to. I think.

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I thought the offical reason was that he was too pissed on the wedding night

Was it? Oops.

Yes. The only time we've ever seen the Strangler used was when Cressen tried to poison Melisandre, and he used it in wine.

And when Joffrey dies.

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One should assume based on the subject being discussed that I did mean 'the only OTHER time'.

Other is a key word which completely changes the meaning of your sentence. When you say, "the only time," you are answering in the negative, directly contradicting the previous statement, whereas saying "the only other time" is a statement in the affirmative, supplemented by a corollary claim.

Actually, what I just said is garbage I made up on the spot. What I mean is that not using Other completely changes the meaning of your sentence.

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I figured it was because of his Dornish heritage (the spear being a popular weapon in Dorne). IIRC, there was some sort of unrest in Dorne, and his mother being wedded to a Targaryen helped to quell it.

That's an interesting interpretation. I always assumed it was because he was a great jouster and broke many lances during his tourneys (like with Arlan of Pennytree).

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