[Book Spoilers] EP107 Early Discussion

[Rockroi]

I just watched "Win or Die" and its a great episode, I'll have more comments on it in the morning.

But on watching it again- with the duality between Cercei and Ned's first conversation and their last; then Renly and then LF etc...

... Seriously, I forgot how woeful Ned was at all this. When you watch it as fast as this episode went by- from beginning to end -its hard to imagine what, if anything, Ned was thinking.

[VorianGR]

Oh, man. I want to watch this NOW.

I love it, how Sean Bean is totally Ned to me now. This is going to be heartbreak all over again when they'd kill him. I wonder if people who haven't read the books can see it coming. He's the fucking hero! He's not suppose to DIE now. They gave him this injury, so that's going to be it, right? Right?

Heh...me and my friends were discussing episode 5 and one of them was like: Of course we know Tyrion won't be killed. He is a protagonist like Eddard!!! How I managed to keep a straight face I don't know.

[Arya The Assassin]

Episode 7 is also available here (probably for US residents only):

http://xfinitytv.comcast.net/

Click on "Episode 7".

[Winterfelled]

Great episode, as usual. Drogo's promise was awesome, and really fleshed out his character. So far we've seen him grow from a brooding horselord, to a caring husband, and now to a vengeful warrior. Considering how little actual screen time he gets, his growth has been the show's greatest accomplishment thusfar. On the whole, I think the Dothraki scenes have outshone the Westerosi ones, though both sides have been fantastic.

Ned was frustrating, as always, but only in retrospect. Reading the books, I saw him as noble and righteous and assumed he would be the eventual, inevitable, victor, and I assume the viewers who are new to the series feel the same way. It will come as a great shock to them when he is killed.

I loved that we saw Tywin field dressing his own kill. Yes, of course, they COULD have shown him at his papers or brooding over a map or something, but that would have been too cliche, even if that's how we met him in the books (though I admit I don't remember how he came on stage in the books). This was a unique introduction, as well as a very nice metaphor.

Going to miss Mark Addy. I never found Robert to be a terribly deep character, since he's already reached the end of his proverbial rope by the time he comes to Winterfell, but Mark gave him a soul, and cast a sympathetic light on his self-destructive behavior.

Arya continues to steal the show. She might be the finest actor cast. When Syrio thwacks her with the sword, she swallows her words and the pain, and I swear to god I felt it. When someone can let a swallow and a silence speak for them...that's just about as good as it gets, isn't it?

Sam is the other scene-stealer. Not much happened up at the wall aside from the oaths and ghost finding the hand, but Sam really puts a lot of character into his brief appearances.

Sucks we have to wait two weeks now, but I'm used to it. We all are, I think.

[Sad King Billy]

Oh Littlefinger, how much do I love to hate you. One thing I wonder though: will the intro now show the Lion sigil in King's Landing?

Speaking of the intro, one thing annoys me, when the camera pans back from winterfell to King's Landing, then it moves to the Dothraki Wastes, it first shows us Vaes Dothrak on an angle, on the left hand side of the screen. Then suddenly, we jump-cut 180°, and it's on the right-hand side. For some reason it always annoys me.

I'm also starting to dislike the exposition-with-boobs style the series is taking. This episode we had Littlefinger and his merry women, the previously we've had Viserys and his slave in bath, and Theon with his whore. Renly's shaving scene (no boobs, for the sake of variety?). It's starting to get repetitive, and they just don't do it for me.

This is the first time I've seen Renly and not felt annoyed with his portrayal. Hope the trend continues.

[Arrogant Bastard]

My favorite episode of the series so far. Surprised Tyrion wasn't in it, my guess is they're holding him off so his story about Tysha is in the same episode he meets up with Tywin. This one felt the most faithful to the books, almost every scene seemed like it was lifted right of the page. In terms of action it was actually slower than the last two episodes but the hour still zoomed by, and some really phenomenal acting all around.

The parts on the wall were great, the guy who plays Samwell is doing a fantastic job and Maester Aemon seemed much more in character than the somewhat grumpy one in episode 3. Great foreboding last shot with Ghost and the hand to set up the next episode. The show also did a good job of setting up Stannis for next season--I wonder if Ned's letter will reach Dragonstone and that will be how Stannis knows of the incest, as they have not indicated yet how he was also investigating with Jon Arryn.

Aidan Gillen is really impressing me as Littlefinger; I thought he was flat in episode 3 but ever since then he's been perfect. I liked his long monologue, though the Lesbian action was probably too over the top and veering into porn territory. Even though it was another scene of backstory involving sex, Littlefinger's ranting felt organic and not as clunky as others, somewhat reminiscent of Al Swearengen's soliloquies in Deadwood when he's being serviced by his prostitutes. It wasn't that subtle, but it was fun seeing how his instructions to the whores parallel his own methods. Also, his scene with Ned in the Hand's office was very well done, really enjoyed the way he spins the dagger to point at himself, just like in the book.

The Osha Theon scene was very well done; gives insight into the wildings' view on Westerosi norms and shows how Theon sort of realizes he's not nearly as important as he thinks he is.

Definitely the best segment involving Dany in any episode, loved Drogo's big speech and the wine tasting scene wasn't rushed at all. Up until now and last episode Drogo hasn't really done anything, now he seems like a legitimate part of the show.

The one scene that didn't click for me as much was Ned meeting Cersei in the Godswood; happened kind of abruptly and Cersei doesn't come across as spiteful enough, though the title line was delivered well.

Finally, the last scene was in my opinion the best single scene of the show so far. Enormous amount of tension even though I knew what was going to happen; loved how the camera lingered on the Hound with his helm on while it was panning the Lannister guards. The kid playing Joffrey is also very good.

It's going to be a long two weeks for episode eight.

[reiver]

How good is Charles Dance? That first scene is undoubtedly my favourite add so far. It's like it was lifted from a cut portion of the book. One complaint though: Could care less... FFS Americans.

[Ser Aardvark]

Heh...me and my friends were discussing episode 5 and one of them was like: Of course we know Tyrion won't be killed. He is a protagonist like Eddard!!! How I managed to keep a straight face I don't know.

Har! The line I got from my friend was "If Ned dies, I'm so done with this show."

[Kalbear]

I was pretty annoyed with the extended Littlefinger/Roz sexposition. At this point I know what GRRM missed; all he needed to do to solve the Meerenese knot was to have a whore PoV. Roz is apparently the most well-informed whore in the entire kingdom; she's privy to Jon's shyness and duty, Theon's power hunger and his plans, Littlefinger's machinations and how he wants to fuck everyone - soon she'll know all about Tyrion's desires too. See? easy to solve. But the scene went on too long, and I didn't think we needed to establish that Littlefinger was a fuckhead.

I also didn't like Jon's part in this episode. "The king...is dying. The realm...is close to war. Lords prepare their armies. The Queen admits to incest. And Jon...doesn't get into his favorite class" I know what it sets up, but I think they should have set this up in 6 instead of 7, and maybe flipped this and Tyrion's part.

Otherwise it was quite solid, though I too would never have pictured Tywin butchering anything himself. Tywin getting his hands personally dirty just doesn't seem right to me.

[Rockroi]

I was pretty annoyed with the extended Littlefinger/Roz sexposition. At this point I know what GRRM missed; all he needed to do to solve the Meerenese knot was to have a whore PoV. Roz is apparently the most well-informed whore in the entire kingdom; she's privy to Jon's shyness and duty, Theon's power hunger and his plans, Littlefinger's machinations and how he wants to fuck everyone - soon she'll know all about Tyrion's desires too. See? easy to solve. But the scene went on too long, and I didn't think we needed to establish that Littlefinger was a fuckhead.

I also didn't like Jon's part in this episode. "The king...is dying. The realm...is close to war. Lords prepare their armies. The Queen admits to incest. And Jon...doesn't get into his favorite class" I know what it sets up, but I think they should have set this up in 6 instead of 7, and maybe flipped this and Tyrion's part.

Otherwise it was quite solid, though I too would never have pictured Tywin butchering anything himself. Tywin getting his hands personally dirty just doesn't seem right to me.

:agree: x3

[gbellinator]

I noticed that too. Kinda sad. Makes me wonder if they threw that line in for all the bitching fans did about Cat's casting. I don't think book Littlefinger would ever say that of Cat.

I don't think Littlefinger was talking about Cat at that point. I think he was referring to Lyssa.

It is a bit misleading I think. I think he changes topics after her question of marriage.

[Ser Aardvark]

I have to file Tywin under the category where characters are different than their description in the book (Lysa, Syrio) but whose physical appearance isn't a key part of their character (Tyrion, Sam, the Clegane brothers) so much as the way the present themselves. It doesn't matter that Lysa is fat, Syrio is bald, and Tywin is large and broad shouldered. The important thing is that the audience understands that Lysa is a complete fruit loop, Syrio is flamboyant, skilled with the sword, but wise, and that Tywin is a hard man who puts the interests of his House above all other concerns. I have to say, in this case, they did a damn good job of getting that across.

[gbellinator]

New Lannister motto: "A Lannister always butchers his own meat."

Great episode, except for the scene with Littlefinger, Ros, and her co-worker. I could hardly stand to watch it, it just didn't feel right. Nice background info dump on LF, but really, I never imagined him as being quite so hands on in the brothels he owns.

I agree. I am no prude, but hated this scene. Think of all the cool things from the book that we could have had, and instead, we get, "Play with her ass."

I could just turn on Skinamax or Showmetime for that...

I love the books and I like the series, but c'mon, treat us with intelligence here.

[Kalbear]

Oh, don't get me wrong - I LOVE the casting of Tywin. I don't care about him being bald. He looks like a strong, scary guy. That's all that matters.

But the butchering seemed a really weird choice for blocking in that episode or in general. One of the things we see Tywin doing always is studying. Studying maps, discussing with his counsellors, reading books, talking to troops, etc. The notion that as he goes to war he'd be all 'hey, let's go hunting' seems so bizarre to me. That's something Robert would do; Tywin takes it way too seriously to allow for something like that.

I liked the scene and his conversation with Jaime - it's nice to see that he's disappointed with all his kids and why. But the deer got in the way.

(also, Tywin wouldn't have field stripped the thing? Seriously?)

[Abaddon]

By the time I got to watch Ep. 6 last night it was late, so I put off watching Ep. 7 until this morning. Looks like it was probably for the best as I had no problems watching it at all.

I haven't even commented in the Ep. 6 thread yet so I'm going to keep this short and will probably post my impressions next week in the "real" thread after re-watching in HD on TV. Other than the porntastic sexposition scene which was just embarassing, this was the best episode yet. Brilliant stuff and I can't think of another scene I didn't like, which is a first. The action has really amped up everywhere and the next three episodes are going to be amazing.

I'm not really bummed about having to wait two weeks for Ep. 8 as we have two episodes to rewatch in the meantime...

[SerArthurHeath]

This was soooooooooooooo good...

Watched them back to back and can't remember which was which but even characters that seemed a little off before, like maybe Renly, were excellent (he may have been a bit of a wuss in his scene with Loras, but he showed guts here). Plus we saw that there are more than 2 KG

[Trebla]

My dad's reaction this morning was: "Dany is a strong woman". Emilia Clarke has hit it out of the park the last two episodes. She is starting tgo show that commanding presence that book Dany gets. Her facial expressions when Viserys gets crowned and with the wineseller. I echo whomever said who cares if her eyes aren't purple, they are beautiful. They are and she emotes wonderfully with them.

Arya does indeed steal every scene. Her reactions to Sansa's blathering was priceless. Even Ned stopped briefly to be amused by her. Maise Williams is going to be a rock for this series as she gets even more and more screen time next season and hopefully in season 3.

[Rockroi]

Win or Die: Maybe the Best episode of the season and for very good reasons.

What I liked:

1). Tywin Lannister:Ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. Apart from a ham-handed metaphor (see below), I thought that they just hit Tywin out of the park. Not only does he have a keen sense of the current-day realpolitik, but Tywin is obviously a man with his eye on the prize: the security and stability of his family. Even after dust claims them all. Dance freakin’ owned this part- a scene that lasts all of five minutes. And I liked how Jaime was used: even the most arrogant of us can turn into children when our fathers are angry with us. I finally liked how Tywin was far more measured here in his relationship with Tyrion. Yes, he’s a runt, but he’s ONE OF US! And he explains – as if it needed explaining –why you cannot just take a Lannister. And you break that rule at YOUR peril.

Now… say something clever.

(small detail I loved: Its cold in the tent: Tywin’s breath can be seen when he speaks. I love that stuff). :

(small detail I don’t like: I know it’s a British thing, but how come they say “din”-esty? It sounds so small).

2). The Warnings to Ned Stark: As I stated above, I really liked how the show unpeeled Ned’s problem in the exact manner of the books. A stone-headed, honor-bound Ned Stark waltzes methodically to his doom. The impending doom of Ned is classic because even in retrospect its hard to say that unless you KNOW its coming that one can say they saw it coming. But look back on Renly and LF and even CERSEI- they all tell him to lay off or to get in good with a power-broker. Instead? Boom boom boom… doom doom doom.

3). Cersei Lannister: Loving the Hate. The two sides of Cersei Lannister were on full display. Cersei the wounded woman – both physically and mentally. How she loved Robert and how he hurt her and hurt her. She then expresses to Ned her wrath: and warns him not to play the game unless he plays to win. Fifty-minutes later she is sitting atop the dais and making good on her promise.

4. Littlefinger: Just ignore the whores. If you remove the grotesquely uncomfortable and unnecessary sex scene, LF’s monologue is very telling (and then the writers tie it back together TO the sex scene). Listen carefully and it all makes sense: what IS LF talking about. Sex? Or power?

“Slowly… you’re not fooling them … they know what you are… you’re job is to make them forget what they know… that takes time… ease into it… “

“He’s winning you over in spite of himself… he knows he’s better than other men … Overcoming you’re very nature… “

“because what we don’t know usually is what gets us killed”

“Who could compare to HIM… he’s just so … good….”

Seriously, what was brilliant is that we SEE sex, but what is LF really talking about? Sex… or his gambles for power? Who’s doing the fooling? And who is making the, forget? Because while the right hand was doing one thing… the left was doing quite another. A really, really good scene.

5. Death of a King: I am just really really happy Addy was Robert. He was just perfect. And he, once again and for the last time , nailed his last scene. I also enjoyed Selmy and how Ned played it. A really, really good scene.

(Wound should have been bigger, though)

(And they should have kept in the lines about how Aerys was worse).

6. And Then The Shit Hit The Fan: Climax Was Epic. Selmy, Cersi, Ned, the Hound, LF. Perfect.

What I am iffy on:

1. Theon Greyjoy: King of the Second-to-Last Word: I am really certain I could have done without the vast majority of Theon’s scenes, but I appreciate why they are there. Just … does he have to be such a stuttering prick? EVERYONE gets the last laugh on Theon. And it’s a chilling vision of things to come. I just wish it fit in better with what else was going on.

2. AND I was the Last Kid Picked for Kickball!!!!: Kal said it best, but with everything going on, having to listen to Jon Snow complain about not being a ranger was so sorry and so lame. It was classic petulant waste. The story is unfolding tremendously and rapidy and with great peril for all… and Bitchy McBitcherton is, once again, only concerned with how the world is unfair to HIM!

3. The Words of the Night’s Watch: They just seem silly when said in unison and to a tree. I know that’s not right, but I thought it was flat.

4. Tywin Lannister: Keeper of the Obvious Metaphor: Odd to see Tywin getting his hands so very dirty. So unlike the book. I can get behind that. I just wish the show had been less obvious with what is going on. Tywin is butchering … a crowned stag… symbol of House Baratheon. Any wonder what is going on?

I did not like (and I am sorry):

1. The Kahl That Yelled At No One: Its universally agreed that khal Dragon’s speech as epic. But it, to me, was the worst of both worlds. First and foremost, in the book, the speech is not to his khaldasar: its to Dany. It’s a slow, smoldering rage, being fed methodically by his rage, but he;s not yelling, he’s not carrying ion: its to DANY he is doing this; its for HER! And so he speaks only to her. Quietly. But no louder than he needs to.

The show wrecks it all. Instead of a determined khal, we have “khal Pete Carroll! “ I AM SO PUMPED AND JACKED AT WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO!!!" Why is he yelling? He’s the khal! What is he afraid of? That they won’t follow? Its so, so lame. And then add this: who the FUCK is he talking to? Remember my constant complaint about the lack of people whoa re, you know, actually IN the hoard? There are like 20 people in that tent MAX! Why is he trying to get them so excited? Why, is he on the radio or something? It was a terrible clash of “better in the book” and “the show’s own limitations stunt what it was trying to do.” I know I am in the minority, but this scene made me only think that the show only gets half of what it is trying to do.

[Little Grandfather]

Was that Shae with Ros? It looked like the actress they cast.

It certainly sheds new light on whether she was just a whore or not.

[Queen Dorothea]

I always pictures Charles Dance as Tywin in my head long before the books were written (it's because the guy from the Last Unicorm also looks like him - the nasty guy).

So, it was really strange, this episode seemed to have come right out of my head apart from the brothel scene (I can't stand Ros anymore, sorry for the actress, but always seeing her *** and *** starts making me sick, give us some diversity PLEASE)

I always think it is important to remember though, that non-readers don't know the scene wasn't there and all they need is to know why Littlefinger did what he did.

I missed Arya and Sansa though and I also NEED MORE HOUND!!!