[BOOK SPOILERS] Is the show being heavy-handed?

[JJxvi]

I took those as LF being cheeky to Ned rather than actual attempts at helpful comments.

[Huan]

I took those as LF being cheeky to Ned rather than actual attempts at helpful comments.

I agree. I saw it as Littlefinger goading Ned to do something really stupid, such as antagonizing Tywin Lannister, rather than spelling it out for the audience.

[mouse]

I would say it's not heavy-handed. Things mentioned in this thread as seeming heavy-handed to readers are precisely where I've had to pause the TiVo to explain things to my husband. (Who is a pretty smart guy.)

[Lone]

I'd say it's relatively heavy-handed, compared to the books. And I don't buy the excuse that it "needs" to be. People would "need" to pay more attention if it was done right, instead of just watching the sparks fly and waiting for the next gratuitous sex scene.

American audiences are kinda slow, though... and TV panders to the common denominator. It's not surprising at all that we're being beat over the head with "hints" and "details." This is HBO, after all.

That all said, I'm still enjoying myself. But it's somewhat of a mindless enjoyment.

[aimlessgun]

-Theon: Agree here. It won't even seem like a betrayal at this point. It will just seem like Theon simply got free from captivity. And it will make Robb look like a complete moron for sending him (and he didn't seem so smart doing that in the books).

-Dragon eggs: were there doubts about whether they would hatch in the books? (serious question, I don't remember what I thought).

-Talking through the hair: It had to be said out loud at some point. I don't think this was a bad way to do it.

I took those as LF being cheeky to Ned rather than actual attempts at helpful comments.

Yeah, it felt like Petyr being a dick as opposed to just being info for the viewer.

[kungtotte]

-Dragon eggs: were there doubts about whether they would hatch in the books? (serious question, I don't remember what I thought).

Yes, there were doubts. Illyrio says they are turned to stone, and that's what everybody believes. Dany begins to suspect that something is up since she notices that the eggs react to heat/fire, but when she questions her maids and Mormont about it they say she is imagining it.

Nobody but Dany believes that the eggs will hatch.

[Alia]

Yes, there were doubts. Illyrio says they are turned to stone, and that's what everybody believes. Dany begins to suspect that something is up since she notices that the eggs react to heat/fire, but when she questions her maids and Mormont about it they say she is imagining it.

Nobody but Dany believes that the eggs will hatch.

I think he meant doubts from readers. I think a lot of readers probably assumed the eggs would hatch at some point, even though the actual scene when it happened had its own surprises. I think it would have been much more surprising if the eggs were indeed only stones though I'm glad they weren't.

[Mad Queen]

I took those as LF being cheeky to Ned rather than actual attempts at helpful comments.

A lot of non-readers thought so too. Maybe we're just biased, but that scene annoyed me. I don't understand why a few people are saying the show is better than the books.

[Tywin's bastard]

It's a pretty funny contradiction that we have fans saying that the show moves along too fast for the non-reader audience to get it, and we have fans saying that the show is too heavy-handed. The truth is probably in the middle with the first group underestimating the non-readers perception, and the second group underestimating how much their experience changes their own perceptions. It's of course not the most subtle of TV shows but my own experience with the non-readers (people I know and things I watch/read on the internet) is also that they get everything important but the general viewers aren't seeing much of what's coming before it hits them other than guesses from standard storytelling etc.

The show is putting out a ton of information (the TS's notion that they have only left the important parts is just wrong in my view) and it's obvious that the non-readers won't grasp everything without watching it a few times. The show must thus point on the important parts more so what the non-readers grasp is sure to include everything important. A reader will of course already know everything so grasping the information is far easier for them, which means that the emphasis on the important details will be much more blatant. The same goes for the book where you're sure to miss several details on the first time but things get much easier on a reread, despite that books are generally more subtle than TV when judging comparable works.

My impression of other great shows (including other HBO ones like Rome or Deadwood) has often been that when I've watched them a second time with someone that's seeing it for the first time I often felt unsure if I just missed things (now that they seem so apparent) and always fear that the other viewer is going to pick up on everything just because everything is so much more obvious on the second run. Of course they never do, it's just my perception that's altered.

-Theon getting pissed on and constantly reminded of his hostage status. His betrayal won't come as any great surprise. Also removing him kicking the head makes him seem a lot more sympathetic than he actually is.

This seems a bit contradictory. You say they make him too obvious a traitor and too sympathetic. Since when is treachery a sympathetic deed? Theon is a hostage in both book and show, that's no different. Unless they change it in the show he didn't intend to betray Robb either, until his father had different ideas and Theon found out that he was seen as a soft weakling that had no right to the Iron Islands. There's nothing subtle about that Theon was a risk for Robb in the book either as Catelyn is very clear about how foolish it was to send Theon instead of someone else.

[The King's Foot]

I do think they are handling the biggest mystery pretty well - "?+?=J". There are hints but not sledge hammers.

What hints are you picking up on? I haven't seen anything at all other than Ned and Robert's picnic conversation during the Kingsroad episode, where we hear the version that Ned told Robert.

I'm actually really bummed about the lack of ToJ flashbacks, b/c once Ned is dead I'm not sure how they'll introduce the concept of Jon's parentage (unless, of course we (most of us) are all wrong about R+L=J). It would have to be something from the Reeds which isn't in the books (yet), since Howland is the only other survivor of the ToJ fight.

[howland_reed]

^ Actually from that same scene, I thought the part that was heavy-handed was LF naming The Mountain/Gregor after saying (aside) to Ned: "Now don't we know someone who fits that description?" I don't think we needed LF to spell that out.

This is one of those few times where I feel the show could've done better by showing instead of telling.

The runtime for Episode 6 was 52 minutes, instead of the usual 55-56, so they had some extra time to spare. What harm would it be to show the Mountain actually pillaging the commoners? Then there wouldn't have been a need for Littlefinger to connect the dots for the casual audience.

My best guess is that such a scene would have been too expensive/costly for what ultimately amounts to being just a filler.

[Anomandaris86]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't he go to his father with every intention of trying to enlist his aid for Robb, and doesn't he argue against his father at first? It's only until later after he's taken that one settlement on the coast where he's like "Fuck this, I'm going to Winterfell."

[Sword in the Morning]

Reading a book and watching a tv show are two very different experiences. On a show, there's so much going on that they kind of have to draw attention to the important points if they want their audience to understand what's going on.

In the Philo chat last night, there were several people who hadn't read the books who STILL weren't quite sure what all was going on.

I think a lot of people on this site are overly critical, confusing their own expectations with how the show *should* be. Instead of dissecting it all, why not just enjoy the ride? We're finally getting to see a visual depiction of a book series we love, and there's no possible way to translate it directly to the screen without a series of name tags, unlimited screen time, an infinite budget and a never-ending supply of the world's best actors.

[Drowned Princess]

Call it heavy handed if you like, but I guarantee you not one person watching who hasn't read the books has any idea what the hell is going on with Bran and the three-eyed crow. We do, cos we've read the books. Everyone else probably just thinks he's going loopy.

I don't think they're doing too badly. Everyone here has had years to re-read and dissect the books. The average evening telly viewer gets less than an hour once a week. The every first time I read the books they were hard to follow, you had to keep going back and refreshing bits to remember what happened because there was so much detail and so many important events occurred offstage. If I was watching without the benefit of prior knowledge i'd need as many whacks with clubs of information as possible.

[Icebreaker]

The LF/Ned scene was really weak. He was over the top with his hints, it's not like Ned is slow or stupid so he has to spell everything out for him. Also, that villager's descriptions of Gregor's actions in the Riverlands were too much. Burning children alive? Really? Anyways, I understand that HBO is aiming for a broader audience so I can withstand lack of subtetly in most of the scenes, although some were really brutal - like Renly and Loras in 5th episode.

[Drowned Princess]

I actually think they're being hilariously over-gory, which sits well with the books. It started with Ned's beheading of the deserter, when the camera didn't cut away when I expected it to. It carried on with Summer ripping the Bran-assassin's throat out, when you get a lovely close-up of the blood pulsing out of his body, and continued with poor Ser Hugh choking on his own blood for a quite ridiculously long time. And then the horse! The horse! I burst out laughing.

(Apparently when I was a very very young child - maybe two or three - and my aunt and older cousins would babysit me, the two boys - who were perhaps eleven and fourteen by this point - would put on the nastiest, bloodiest horror films they could find, proper 80s gore-fests, and make me watch them. And I would laugh and laugh like it was the funniest thing i'd ever seen. So they'd get bored that I wasn't crying and turn them off. And I'd ask to watch them over again.)

[mouse]

I still maintain the scene with Ned & Littlefinger is only "heavy-handed" if you know what is about to happen. For non-readers, it's an information dump. Non-readers likely don't know that the sigil of the Tully house has anything to do with fish, so the significance of the bag of fish guts is just a mystery. Non-readers mgiht pick up that a really big guy who is able to cut off his horses head is the same really big guy who did the same thing last week, but they likely don't know that Gregor is considered affiliated with the Lannisters. Watching that scene, my husband asked me to explain what had just happened.

[Bronn Stone]

I still maintain the scene with Ned & Littlefinger is only "heavy-handed" if you know what is about to happen. For non-readers, it's an information dump. Non-readers likely don't know that the sigil of the Tully house has anything to do with fish, so the significance of the bag of fish guts is just a mystery. Non-readers mgiht pick up that a really big guy who is able to cut off his horses head is the same really big guy who did the same thing last week, but they likely don't know that Gregor is considered affiliated with the Lannisters. Watching that scene, my husband asked me to explain what had just happened.

I can see that a reminder that the Tully sigil is a trout was probably a good thing. But it has to work in context. Littlefinger in great earnestness saying "Fish. The sigil of House Tully. That's your wife's house, my Lord Hand." does not qualify. As if Littlefinger is telling him something he doesn't already know. New viewers may well need to hear that again, but there is absolutely no reason for Littlefinger to word it so stupidly and awkwardly.

Had Littlefinger said, "Fish. Your wife's father's own sigil. Practically thrown in his face!", the infodump happens but at least LF is saying something in the ballpark of a thing he might actually say. The lines as broadcast are clumsy, graceless and heavy-handed.

[80r]

I'm going to agree with everyone on here that actually knows people watching, who haven't read the books. There are simply too many characters for people to understand, without the show being heavy-handed. One of my friends understands, but he's had to watch each episode more than once. The rest keep asking me for clarification. 50 minutes per week simply isn't enough to afford to be subtle.

[howland_reed]

One place where I wish they'd been more subtle is with Theon.

Non-book reader friends of mine have already surmised that he's going to turn on the Starks.

I remember being completely thrown off by Theon's betrayal (and in fact, after finishing GoT the first time, I don't think I even recalled who he was). I think the show should've kept that same mysteriousness, and really develop his character S2.

As for the heavy-handedness with Dany's eggs, I think that's necessary solely cause of the fact that they don't want the final birthing scene (and ditto with Dany stepping into the fire) to seem absolutely ridiculous and come out of nowhere. Things like magic on this show need to be introduced pretty delicately.