[BOOK SPOILERS] Is the show being heavy-handed?

[Ramsay Bolton]

I'm not sure you completely understand the differences between a TV series and a book.

Nor do I think you have the proper perspective to make that claim, having read the book and knowing everything beforehand.

[jellydonut]

I know they have to cut out a lot of minor details in this show, leaving only important stuff, but I kind of wish they would be more subtle on some of these things. When Ned started reading from that lineage book and ended with "Joffrey Baratheon, gold of head" I couldn't help but roll my eyes a little bit. I think we get it.

Two other things that stood out:

-Theon getting pissed on and constantly reminded of his hostage status. His betrayal won't come as any great surprise. Also removing him kicking the head makes him seem a lot more sympathetic than he actually is.

-The dragon eggs. Is there any doubt that they won't hatch at this point?

Thoughts?

I don't think so. You should confer with someone who hasn't read any of the books to see their perspective.

I watched four episodes of the show before reading all the books (watching episode 5 whilst reading), and the way I experience the show has definitely changed.

They *especially* need to be particular about pointing out Theon. I've read comments as late as after episode 5 where people think he's one of the Stark children. (probably because Rickon has had, what, one scene, and wasn't even named in it)

[MindLikeWarp]

It was "Joffrey Baratheon...golden haired" not "gold of hair". Not that it makes a difference, but I thought the change in syntax made the difference more noticeable.

[Cereal Forel]

Have you guys read the books? Ned is definitely as dumb as Littlefinger makes him out to be. He's only a notch above Hodor, and that's because he can say more than his name.

[Bronn Stone]

Have you guys read the books? Ned is definitely as dumb as Littlefinger makes him out to be. He's only a notch above Hodor, and that's because he can say more than his name.

Read AND understood. Dozens of times. Thus came to the opposite conclusion. The correct one. Eddard has no heart for plotting and trusted Littlefinger, but that doesn't put him the Hodor category. Not even close. Brains-wise, he's in the middle of the pack in Westeros.

[SFA-OK]

I have to agree. It's definitely more corny than the books and I can't blame that on the budget. Some of the writing on the show just isn't that good.

I really think the way they've handled this show so far is a reflection of current movies and shows, which isn't a good thing - play it safe, dumb it down, throw in some cliches, keep the pacing fast, etc. I'm still enjoying the show but it could definitely be better. At times the show really feels like a current Hollywood fantasy/action movie but with better source material, nothing really stands out so far.

I do have to disagree about the portrayal of Theon, though. He's been portrayed as a Grade A douche since the first episode. I never viewed him as a total douche like that until later on when he's rejected by his father and basically snaps. I think if they'd taken more of a neutral approach to the character early on it would've been much more interesting.

[SFA-OK]

Have you guys read the books? Ned is definitely as dumb as Littlefinger makes him out to be. He's only a notch above Hodor, and that's because he can say more than his name.

I totally disagree. Ned is like a fish out of water in King's Landing and it's not because he'd dumb, maybe naive, but definitely not dumb. His character seems to actually value honor and integrity which is the opposite of most of the people he deals with in King's Landing, who are constantly back-stabbing and conspiring against each other (Game of thrones, etc.).

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

I know they have to cut out a lot of minor details in this show, leaving only important stuff, but I kind of wish they would be more subtle on some of these things. When Ned started reading from that lineage book and ended with "Joffrey Baratheon, gold of head" I couldn't help but roll my eyes a little bit. I think we get it.

Two other things that stood out:

-Theon getting pissed on and constantly reminded of his hostage status. His betrayal won't come as any great surprise. Also removing him kicking the head makes him seem a lot more sympathetic than he actually is.

-The dragon eggs. Is there any doubt that they won't hatch at this point?

Thoughts?

My husband has not gotten any of these things. As a non-reader and a "casual" watcher of tv shows, he needs the heavy handiness. He, like so many others, has not read the books and not spent the past 15 years analyzing every word in the books.

The question is simple: who is the tv show for? avid fans only or everyone.

[Abaddon]

The question is simple: who is the tv show for? avid fans only or everyone.

Well said; but "everyone" should be "everyone except the 5% of fans that can't realize this is an adaptation of the books, not the books transcribed literally on-screen".

[Valmy]

My husband has not gotten any of these things. As a non-reader and a "casual" watcher of tv shows, he needs the heavy handiness. He, like so many others, has not read the books and not spent the past 15 years analyzing every word in the books.

Alot of critics have said the show is too complicated and hard to follow as it is.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

My brother a non-reader was totally shocked by the revelation that Joffrey was a child of incest, so that makes another one. I thought they did a great job with that reveal.

[BlackTalon]

.....

[Cereal Forel]

Read AND understood. Dozens of times. Thus came to the opposite conclusion. The correct one. Eddard has no heart for plotting and trusted Littlefinger, but that doesn't put him the Hodor category. Not even close. Brains-wise, he's in the middle of the pack in Westeros.

Ned trusting Littlefinger was only one of the mistakes he made. You can call it whatever you want, Ned is potentially the most dimwitted lord in Westeros.

Littlefinger didn't betray Ned because of who he was, he did it because Ned served himself up on a silver platter to Cersei and then turned down Renly's offer. Who knows, Littlefinger may have had every intention of helping him until Cersei came and paid him a truckload of gold.

[Xenophon]

I think the show's been fine. Occasionally it gets a bit much (for example, LF stage-whispering at Ned in the Throne Room), but most of the time it's fine. In a 1-hour show, things are naturally going to stand out more than in a massive book.

Also, like others have said, it's pretty helpful for people who don't know the story already. I've watched a few episodes with my wife who hasn't read the books, and more with a friend who also doesn't know the story, and the only things they think are heavy-handed are the frequent shots of the dragon eggs and the totally unnecessary bits nudity that feel stuck in to make the show "adult" (i.e. Ros on the cart, inside LF's whorehouse, etc.)

[Abaddon]

Littlefinger didn't betray Ned because of who he was, he did it because Ned served himself up on a silver platter to Cersei and then turned down Renly's offer. Who knows, Littlefinger may have had every intention of helping him until Cersei came and paid him a truckload of gold.

I always thought the real problem was Stannis. I think Littlefinger would have preferred to have Ned (so easily to manipulate) as Lord Protector, but the idea of King Stannis taking over was not something he could tolerate. When Ned chose to back Stannis, Littlefinger's decision was made.

[Trinket]

And as for Ned reading out the entries in the lineage book: Could someone suggest how else this scene could have been handled well? A voice-over of him thinking would have been lame. He had to come to the conclusion whilst alone; having him say it out loud to another person in the room would have been too much of a departure because then you've got the question of who would he say it to. And, anyway, if they did do that, the moaners would just complain that the scene was an unnecessary info-dump... The writers can't win :rolls eyes:

Show the book. Make the text in it readable and zoom in on it, show especially the lines that say "black of hair" and "golden haired", or have Ned mark them with his finger, or something. Couple that with some acting afterwards and you can perfectly well show Ned drawing conclusions about what he has read without having to do a silly voice-over or him talking to himself. That's one suggestion, which has been used in other tv shows. I'm certain not everyone will like it, but I am pretty certain there are plenty of other options if a bit of imagination was used. Thing is, imagination and preparing a good script is much harder than dumbing things down and applying stupid soap opera tricks which is why we see Ned talking to himself. You can convey just the same amount of information without resorting to the easiest possible manner of doing it.

[Anomandaris86]

Littlefinger didn't betray Ned because of who he was, he did it because Ned served himself up on a silver platter to Cersei and then turned down Renly's offer. Who knows, Littlefinger may have had every intention of helping him until Cersei came and paid him a truckload of gold.

Um, no. Littlefinger engineered the war from the very beginning. He had Lysa kill Jon Arryn and then blame it on the Lannisters, which is the whole reason Ned got sent to the capital in the first place (and is already suspicious about the Lannisters). He's also the one who convinced Joffrey (not confirmed but it's implied) to kill Ned in the first place instead of pardonning him. Of course, Ned's death was essential to the war taking place. Up until that point it could have been averted. So Littlefinger planned on his death from the get-go. He obviously wanted the war and took steps to achieve it. What he actually wants in the long run is a mystery, but for now it seems clear that he is thriving off the chaos.

[Xenophon]

Show the book. Make the text in it readable and zoom in on it, show especially the lines that say "black of hair" and "golden haired", or have Ned mark them with his finger, or something. Couple that with some acting afterwards and you can perfectly well show Ned drawing conclusions about what he has read without having to do a silly voice-over or him talking to himself. That's one suggestion, which has been used in other tv shows. I'm certain not everyone will like it, but I am pretty certain there are plenty of other options if a bit of imagination was used. Thing is, imagination and preparing a good script is much harder than dumbing things down and applying stupid soap opera tricks which is why we see Ned talking to himself. You can convey just the same amount of information without resorting to the easiest possible manner of doing it.

Ugh, count me in the don't like it camp.

Also, reading out loud isn't that odd a habit. In the ancient world, it was the norm, so much so that to read silently was regarded as suspicious. Perhaps Westeros has a similar custom.

[Bronn Stone]

Ned trusting Littlefinger was only one of the mistakes he made. You can call it whatever you want, Ned is potentially the most dimwitted lord in Westeros.

Littlefinger didn't betray Ned because of who he was, he did it because Ned served himself up on a silver platter to Cersei and then turned down Renly's offer. Who knows, Littlefinger may have had every intention of helping him until Cersei came and paid him a truckload of gold.

At the same time, every mistake Eddard made Cersei made worse. She trusted Littlefinger with her life just as much. She is totally at his mercy - killing her simply requires revealing her crimes and it can be done without repercussions. Her guards and the Kingsguards she has in her pockets aren't sufficient to fight of Lord Stark's men and the Watch. She didn't win the Game of Thrones, any more than Mexico won WW2. She trusted Littlefinger and it didn't bite her on the arse. But it well could have.

Eddard, on the other Hand (he-he) trusted LF and died for it. But this is a Littlefinger that almost NOBODY distrusted. Only Varys saw beneath the mask, and Varys wasn't really talking. Nobody suspected his involvement in Lord Arryn's death. This is a Littlefinger, who had been like a brother to Eddard's wife; a Littlefinger who'd worked well with him up to that point. Cersei had been around him for years (or at least months) and had no clue. Tyrion didn't realize how dangerous he was despite the lie about the dagger (he only realized later, in ACOK) and Tyrion had much more exposure than Eddard.

Hindsight is twenty-twenty, but the clues about young Lord Baelish weren't really there to be put together unless one was focused on that task alone and Eddard had bigger bastards to fry. Petyr had masked his bitterness well.

[The Knight of Grasses]

My thoughts:

Littlefinger: I think his blatant whisperings are over-the-top, but not heavy-handed. I'm sure that makes no sense, so let me 'splain. No, there is too much; let me sum up. So far, Littlefinger's character has not been nearly subtle enough. He's supposed to be this sly, underhanded wheeler and dealer (in the show as well as the books), but he comes off as more of a know-it-all jackass. I think those lines were meant more as a pointed remark to Ned that would make him uncomfortable. OF COURSE Ned knows his wife's sigil. LF is just pointing it out to make him squirm. That's not heavy-handed, but at the same time, I don't like the way it portrays LF. Just my opinion.

Theon: I think they've done a bit too much with Theon the last few weeks, in terms of his lower status in Winterfell. Even in later books, references to Robb and Theon's relationship almost makes it seem brotherly. At this point, it seems like they're setting it up for Theon to take Winterfell not because of a desperate attempt to please his father but because he's been treated like an outsider/prisoner for 10 years. And who knows? That might not be heavy-handedness - it may be because they want to change Theon's motivation. Maybe they cut down a lot of the stuff between Theon and Balon. In which case, all of this "not MY house" dialogue plays into why he does what he does next season.

The eggs: I think they're treating this fine. It became pretty clear in the books that something was going to happen with them. Maybe they're being a little heavy-handed here, but it's not awful.

Joffrey's lineage: I thought they played this just about perfectly, to be honest. As soon as he said "Joffrey Baratheon: golden-haired," my non-reader friend sat up straight in his chair and was like "They're not his kids! INCEST!" It was fantastic.