Why did Shae betray Tyrion?

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

It's no contridiction, she's a whore not a spy. I would assume if I purchased a prostitue that she would finish her job and not run to the police and lie to them and tell them that I'm a child pornographer. That's pretty much tantamount to what she did. Everyone is trying to make it seem like prostitute=liar. To put it simply, we expect Bronn to jump ship at a knighthood. I don't expect him to go out of his way to condemn Ty. She could have just jumped ship, instead she tried to barter his life and honor for a pittance. She threw away his life to save her own, so he turn the tables. What is the issue? Game of Thones, you win or you die.

Please stop. Shae testifying against Tyrion and your scenario are nothing alike.

They do have a relationship, a business one. I don't know why people can't understand this. A sellsword is not the same as a sellcrotch. A sellsword by nature is a devious person who is there to make money by killing. A prostitute is not the same thing. She is a business, and she stepped outside their business relationship and basically tried to use his life as a bartering chip. She essentially was the final nail in his coffin. She attempted to kill him by proxy. He killed her first hand. We all seem to have forgotten that he got another woman whipped and almost killed to protect Shae. He went out of his way to protect her from his father, and all she does is betray him and sacrifice him.

:bs:

There is not reason to expect more loyalty out of Shae than Bronn.

She was paid to be fantasy girlfriend. So, she acted. Bronn was not paid to be fantasy so friend, so he didn't act it.

But it was not a betrayal. Tyrion wasn't Shae's friend. He was a client. You can't betray a client in my view if that's the extend of your relationship. Did Tyrion have a reason to be angry at Shae for her perjury and mocking? Absolutely? But to feel betrayed? Not really.

I would argue he had the right to feel betrayed, but not the way the "fuck the evil bitch whore" faction says.

A prostitute is expected to keep discretion. She broke that. He has a right feel betrayed about that. But not the fact that she turned on him.

Of course, this does not mean Shae's death was cool.

Sellcrotch = Worst. Way. To. Advertise. Prostitution. Ever.

:agree:

So by that same logic, Tyrion is also in the right for killing Shae regardless. She was a threat to his physical safety, aside from having used him as a sacrifice in order to profit for herself. Tyrion is only guilty of trusting a whore. You're basically saying that being immoral and saving your neck is acceptable because it saves you. You can't have it both ways and either way you want to spin it, he was justified in killing her. In the first case because he was protecting his own life and liberty and in the second case because she was immoral and deserved to die.

But that is not why Tyrion killed her.

1.(1)Yes, I apologize for how I said that. The part about people “cunningly” trying to make Shae look bad is unfair. What I was trying

to express was my annoyance with the fact that Tyrion’s convincing himself that Shae loved him is so often seen as something tragic and

romantic, rather than weird and creepy. Though it is understandable to feel pity for Tyrion over this fact, I think the fact that Shae paid a high price for Tyrion’s delusions is all too often lost sight of. (Of course, Tyrion’s self-deceptions were not by any means the primary instigator of Shae’s death. But I think they did add fuel to the fire of his rage.)

I expressed this poorly, and I’m sorry if I offended you.

3. (2)Yes, but before this there were people saying that “Tyrion haters” were being irrational and not basing their arguments on

anything. I apologize if I broke the peace. I was simply pointing out that the passion—and yes, occasional irrationality—went both ways.

I was not accusing you personally of irrationality. Though you seem to be quite passionate about defending Tyrion, your arguments are

perfectly rational. (3)Yet, if you feel that I’m being unfair in saying that, the Tyrion defenders (again, not yourself, but some others defending Tyrion) could be just as irrational as the Tyrion haters… then you should go back and read some of the pages of this forum. (In some cases, specific arguments were rebutted with remarks like “Shae had no good qualities. She was a bitch who got what was coming to her.” And yes, I would be happy to find the exact quotes if you’d like me to.)

So, I’m sorry to reopen old wounds, if you feel that was what I was doing. However, if you pay close attention to the wording of my post, my statement was, “I’ve heard people on these threads arguing that everyone condemning Tyrion for his murder of his ex lover is irrational and unobjective.” And I honestly comments implying such a thing. I was not trying to insult Tyrion defenders in general.

(4)Actually, I said, regarding Tyrion defenders, “you guys seem to relate to Tyrion so utterly that any insult against him is almost like an insult against you.” My argument was never that Tyrion defenders (in general) were “like him,” but that (in general) they related very strongly to him, and seemed to take insults against him personally. (To be fair, this is the case for many main characters. People get pretty indignant and angry when Dany, Catelyn, and others are insulted. There is often a personal tone to their anger, as if they themselves have been insulted. It’s all perfectly natural.)

Relating to a character is very different from “being like” that character. I never said that any of the Tyrion defenders secretly desire to kill some 18-year-old girl, or even thought it.* And it’s worth saying that I realize that not every Tyrion defender is defending the imp because they relate to him. (And those who do relate to him are often offended by the unfairness of the arguments against Tyrion rather than the fact that a character they relate to is being insulted.) However, rereading the Tyrion defending posts on this thread, I still do get the feeling that plenty of readers Tyrion defenders do relate to Tyrion a lot, and that their anger over criticisms of him has a personal quality to it.

*Regarding some comments I made about some people agreeing that Shae was “a bitch who deserved to die,”—that was not directed at all Tyrion defenders in general. That was directed at those who stated blatantly that Shae was a bitch and they enjoyed her death. Now, I’m not saying that such people are evil and/ or would kill a girl for cheating on them in real life. However, such people clearly do feel (by their own admittance) that Shae is a bitch who deserved to die. (And this is different, imo, from merely saying that “I hated Shae,” or “I felt no sympathy for Shae.”)

(5)Do you mean considering my opinion of Tyrion? Because actually, I think people could do a lot worse than be similar to him…. He has many good qualities, and I don’t recall ever arguing that he was “evil” or an enslaver of women.

I was merely trying to point out that Tyrion’s treatment of Shae was not the sort of thing to inspire loyalty on her part. And though I see Tyrion as far more flawed and amoral than many other readers seem to, I don’t think I’ve ever argued that he’s basically a bad guy. In short, I don’t think implying Tyrion defenders are “like him,” would be such a grievous insult. However, as I’ve pointed out, that’s not what I’m saying. Relating to a character does not equal being like them.

4. (6)I was never arguing that GRRM was “inherently sexist.” I argued that his portrayal of Shae “carried overtones of sexism.” Saying that a certain character or situation in a book is sexist is not tantamount to saying that the author themselves is sexist in their personal life. It is possible for a person who is not sexist at all to portray a character that is fairly sexist in the way he or she is drawn, imo.

5. Well, as I said before, I don’t necessarily think GRRM is a sexist. However, due to some double standards, emotional manipulation, and narrative techniques used in regards to Shae, I do believe that there is some sexism in the way that she is portrayed. However, since you (and many others) seem to feel that my argument is silly, I won’t waste time and space elaborating on the reasons why.

6. Okay. You’re right, it’s not your responsibility to refute every weird or unfair argument.

(7)Well, since this thread asks why Shae betrayed Tyrion, I think examining her motivations behind the whole “giant of Lanister” thing is worth doing. After all, this thread is entitled “Why did Shae betray Tyrion.”

(8)I think you’re being a bit unfair here.

1. Apology accepted.

My problem is when you originally put posted it, it seemed more like you were saying the Tyrion defenders were purposely being underhanded in the argument.

2. You were talking about Tyrion defenders giving passionate defenses. Like you pointed out, I fit that category. I hope you can see why I was offended even though you didn't mean to include me.

3.I fully agree there are people on both sides that are being irrational. BBB who posted between these posts for example of a Tyrion

defender being irrational.

Sorry if I got a little aggressive. But the Internet is an imperfect medium. Besides the whole no body non-verbal cues thing, we don't know each other. So, we can't make an educated guess of what the other means. So, when you give a qualification that fits me, I'll assume you're talking about me.

4. Again, sorry if I came out a little aggressive here.

5. OK. Maybe that was a little imprecise. The qualities we are referring to Tyrion here.

6. Maybe I misunderstood you. If I did, I apologize. But you have pointed quite a bit in other threads with other women (such as drawing the contrast to submissive to men Dany and Cat as heroes and resentful Cersei being functionally retarded).

7. True, but the Thread has mutated to whether or not Tyrion was justified in killing her.

While I feel he wasn't, I feel certain other factors made a moment of rage rather the cold-blooded killing of a woman who made fun of him. When taking these factors into account, Shae's motivations for testifying or even humiliating him do not matter.

8. You're right. Sorry. That is when I thought you were insulting pretty much every Tyrion defender, so I was mocking you. Though since I misunderstood, I take it back and apologize.

8. What? I argued that a. Tyrion accepts more disrespect from Bronn (Felix says I am projecting here, then goes on to detail why its true—because Tyrion and Bronn are friends, and because Shae, due to the nature of her profession, cannot really talk back to her employer. With all do respect to Felix, I felt that this basically confirmed my argument, rather than refuted it.) b. the nature of the Bronn/ Shae relationshiop is different from the nature of the Tyrion/ Shae relationship. Again, it seems that everything that Felix said basically supported my point.

Where he said I was being hypocritical/ self- contradictory was in my statement that it was unfair that Shae is demonized and blamed for ditching Tyrion, while Bronn is not. He felt that I was being “self contradicting” here. Since the Tyrion/ Bronn relationship was of a different nature than the Tyrion/ Shae relationship, apparently that meant I couldn’t argue that Shae and Bronn betray Tyrion in exactly the same way.

Honestly, the only difference that I can see here is the fact that Bronn’s is the greater betrayal, and deserves greater condemnation. Since Bronn was closer to being Tyrion’s friend, and shared a better relationship to him, then it seems that what Bronn did was far more wrong. Betraying an employer you are sort of friends with seems worse than betraying an employer you are sleeping with. :dunno:

Basically what Felix said in his response.

It's not so much her giving testimony, but her added humiliation that was her major wrong. Not enough for her to be killed, but still enough to wrong Tyrion in a way Bronn did not.

Re. Bronn vs Shae, did Tyrion ever tell Shae what he told Bronn, namely if anyone ever asks you to sell me out, I'll double their price?

By making that deal with Bronn, Tyrion showed he understood and respected Bronn's autonomy. And Bronn did keep the deal, giving Tyrion the chance to beat Cersei's offer. Now, Shae probably wouldn't have had a chance to visit Tyrion before testifying against him, but I wonder whether she might have been less inclined to sell him out had Tyrion made a similar deal with her.

There is a difference here. Namely that it does not matter if Tyrion told Shae this because she was not being offered a different job.

Tyrion has every reason to expect Bronn to kill him if offered the right price. He does not expect this with Shae.

I cannot honestly say there would be a reason for Tyrion to tell Shae, "If I get falsey accused of treason and regicide, I'll pay you this much not testify against me."

I don't think Shae realistically had the option to elicit a counter-offer from Tyrion. I think Cersei's offer was something along the lines of, "Do what I ask and I'll pay you; otherwise you die and/or get tortured horribly." Tyrion was just not in any position to counter that offer.

But again, only the "or else you die" part excuses the whole perjury/humiliation thing in any way. It is not morally or ethically acceptable to perjure yourself against an innocent person simply because the person out to get them is going to buy you a nice vacation home.

Your post made me think. Does it matter that Tyrion is already screwed?

If Shae is doing it strictly for money and was not threaten in any way, does it matter that she can reasonably assume Tyrion was already screwed?

If not, does it matter if it played a part in her decision to testify against him (I mean, she wouldn't have if he might not be found guilty, but decided to since he was going to die either way)?

Don't get me wrong. If she did it just for money, she was wrong no matter what. And even if Tyrion already being fucked was a part of her decision, it makes her humiliation of him any less painful for Tyrion or *malicious. I am strictly referring to her testimony. Her humiliation of Tyrion is a separate wrong.

I would say, if that is the case (which admittedly, we'll never know), it does make it less of a sin. It is still a horrible thing to do, but I would consider it not as bad as if she simply was willing to testify for money without caring if or hoping that her testimony would actually make difference.

*Which it was whether she was doing it as her chance to say, "Fuck you dwarf," or simply to make Cersei even happier with her.

It still seems that the only thing Shae did that Bronn didn’t do was embarrass him in front of a courtroom of people.

Well, considering that was the trigger for his rage and basically the reason he killed, it makes all the difference.

DISCLAIMER: I do not think Shae deserved to die. I think what Tyrion did was evil. I simply do not think Tyrion is evil. I think he was in a fucked up emotional state that Shae wasn't even the major reason for. She simply was in the wrong place at the wrong with wrong person and said the wrong thing.

The normal, rational Tyrion would not have killed unless she began posing a direct threat to him (like threatening to alert the guards).

I state this because I can see how a newbie to this thread can see me arguing these points (the difference between Bronn and Shae) and misunderstand my position.

(9)For the record, though, I do think Shae betrayed Tyrion solely for the money. And GRRM seems determined to portray her as 1 dimensional and evil as possible for this fact. Whereas we got plenty of information in AFFC to highlight the fact that Tyrion Lanister was far more "grey," than we had ever appreciated before, not so for Shae. In AFFC, it is emphasized by several people on several occasions that Tywin had reasons for doing what he did; and was coming from a difficult place, psychologically speaking. In contrast, Shae's nastiness and one-dimensional greediness was emphasized yet again when it was highlighted that she screwed over Tyrion for lands and a castle.

(10)Whether or not one feels any more sympathy for Tywin after the revelations about his father, etc. in AFFC, I think it is clear that the author made the effort to show what made Tywin the way he was, what his motivations were, etc. However, we never get anything behinds Shae's actions, save that she was a lying, greedy hooker who simply wanted more money.

(11)In the end, the author is willing to ask "why Tywin did what he did, and portray him as a complex character, but not do the same for Shae. Which is funny, because Tywin arranged the red wedding, had babies killed, and arranged for the gang rape of a 14 year old girl. All Shae did was screw over Tyrion and embarrass him.

(12)And I can appreciate the fact that Shae is a more minor character, and thus her feelings and motivations can be explored in less depth than a POV character's can. However, GRRM has managed to portray the "moral greyness", complexity, and motivations of characters who are far more minor than Shae. (And who have done far worse things than she did. And no, embarrassing Tyrion, and even committing perjury are not as bad as nine tenths of the crap that goes on in this series, imo.) (13)We get a better idea of the motivations of Chett, the boil covered girlfriend murderer, than we do of Shae-- and Chett is actually drawn with far more empathy and understanding. (That's not so say that he isn't portrayed as a nasty person, but that there is empathy and a certain pity, both so conspicuously absent in the portrayal of Shae.)

Furthermore, though I know that Tyrion's feelings and motivations are obviously going to be more clear than Shae's, since he is a POV character and she is merely a part of the cast, Tyrion's sympathetic feelings are emphasized and Shae's totally negated to the extent that it is almost ridiculous.

(14)Whatever. I'm sure in the next few books we'll all learn that Shae lied about everything, betrayed Tyrion gleefully for money alone, and was happily sleeping with Tywin all along. And honestly has no redeeming qualities, a la Cersei. It would fit perfectly of GRRM's portrayal of the character and females like her in these books thus far. Like Cersei, Shae strikes me as a male fear personified... and demonized, degraded, and humiliated.

9. Of course, Tyrion is more complex than Shae. He is a main character. She is not.

That said, I don't see how Shae was portrayed badly until she fucked Tyrion over.

My sister who is just at the end of ACoK, thought bitch-Shae from the show was not like Shae from the books.

Of course, the show is basically doing with her what it did with Theon and foreshadowing their later "betrayals." Apparently, the show, while awesome, can't be as complex and grey as the books.

10. Oh. I take it Tyrion was a typo? Well, the point still stands if not as much. Tywin was a more important character to the story and the Westros than Shae. They both might not be major chacters, but they not equals.

11. See point 10. Tywin as truly a monster, and I personally do not think his "tragic" past is justification for what he turned out to be.

12. I'm willing to listen/debate this point, but I really would like to know who are talking about.

13. Chett IS a POV character. One prologue, but that's really how we know anything other than "that dud Samwell replaced." He is not a fair comparison since he did get a POV.

14. This is where I draw the conclusion that you think GRRM is sexist. If not, why do think he portrays women the way you think he does (seriously, just trying to figure out)?

Honestly, I doubt we'll find that out. The only one who would think of her is Tyrion. Honestly, I hope he regrets his actions with her.

I think GRRM works harder to make Tywin appear morally "grey", because what we know of him would lead us to simply paint him black otherwise. I never felt that way about Shae.

Good point.

(15)a. I highly doubt that Shae did what she did under the threat of force. So, apparently, you feel that her actions were inexcusable. But Tyrion's murder of her can be understood by the circumstances? You honestly think perjury and embarrassing someone in public is worse than murder? (And as you yourself have noted, Shae's testimony did not doom Tyrion. He was doomed already.)

Honestly, I can't really blame you though, since Shae's murder is glossed over, Tyrion's public embarrassment (actually far less tragic and horrible than the sort of stuff nine tenths of these characters go through on a regular basis) is made to look like THE GREATEST ATTROCITY OF ALL TIME. :rolleyes:

So...yeah. Shae has been portrayed as one- dimensionally negative and greedy, when GRRM has had every chance to add little hints to flesh her out or indicate her motivation. Instead, he takes every opportunity to make her look horrible and nasty in the readers eyes. (16)Honestly, it seems to me that like some on these message boards, GRRM cannot forgive Shae for screwing Tyrion over, and does not really care if she has any good traits. He wants the reader to share in this loathing, and to feel some satisfaction/ approval when Tyrion murders Shae.

(17)Clear double standards are shown in the fact that he portrays Tywin Lanister, a far greater monster than Shae, as a complex, multilayered man. (Your arguments basically support exactly what I was saying about GRRM's portrayal of Tywin.) Also, Bronn, no more important a character than Shae, gets far, far, more development. He is drawn with warmth and sympathy, Shae is demonized and degraded in the same way Cersei is.

b. (18)Most of your rebuttals of my arguments basically support the arguments I was trying to make. I argued that Tywin is portrayed as "a great man," a complex, multilayered character, though he does basically the same thing as Shae, along with much worse deeds. You argue against this by stating.... that Tywin should not be compared to Shae, because he is a great leader, and complex, multilayered character. And Shae is not, and does not need to be. This was exactly what I was saying. Save only the last part-- Shae was a fairly significant character, and could have easily been portrayed as more than just a nasty, greedy, spiteful, totally immoral hooker. Characters in even smaller roles have been developed 10 times more. And also, though you state that it was not necessary to flesh out Shse and her motivations, GRRM did more than this. He demonized Shae, and made her look nasty and cruel at every opportunity.

(19)And for the record, I'll list the devices that are used to demonize Shae/ make her look as negative as possible (hilariously, a number of these points correspond with your "arguments" against GRRM's portrayal of Shae being at all negative or sexist.)

1. He frequently emphasizes Tyrion's emotions, while ignoring Shae's.

2. He portrays her as greedy, taking pains to illustrate this (for all 4 who missed it) by having her proclaim that the man should have chosen the gold in the riddle varys told them.

3. He portrays her as childish, petulant, and mean. He also gives every appearance of her being a liar. At first I thought that Shae's comments about being raped by her father were intended to inspire sympathy/ illustrate where she was coming from. Rereading this, however, it appears that GRRM is heavily implying that Shae is lying to Tyrion about her past, in order to gain his sympathy, and because she's innately dishonest.

4. Though Shae is in plenty of scenes throughout ACoK and ASOS, she never demonstrates a kind, compassionate, or sympathetic moment. Nothing that could inspire any sympathy whatsoever for her. And this is not just with Tyrion-- this is with everyone. And despite your arguments that she was a very significant character, she was in plenty of scenes.

5. She makes nasty comments about Lolys and her gang rape. (Though Tyrion does essentially the same thing, stating that he'd rather "chop it off and feed it to the goats," than marry Lolys shortly after the poor woman is gang raped, this is portrayed as totally okay and witty.) This is something that many female readers cite when they admit to disliking her. Such comments really have no other purpose than to make Shae look mean and nasty.

6. Her comments about Sansa. Again, made to look mean and nasty.

7. Totally glossing over any human emotions she might have save annoyance, petulance, and desire for riches.

8. Making her look as though she has no motivations whatsoever save pure greed. Her desire for riches is constantly highlighted; any other possible motivations are ignored.

9. Emphasizing Tyron’s "love" for her, without indicating that he is only in love with a fantasy. (And no, tyrion himself never, ever admits this in the text. What he thinks is basically, "Shae is a prostitute I've hired, and she could never really love me. But I want to believe she loves me, because I love her." He tells himself that Shae cannot possibly love him in a way that makes him look even more sympathetic and elicits yet more sympathy from readers. However, he never thinks that he is in love with a fantasy in his head, while ignoring the real Shae. This is hardly romantic, and the totally selfish, egoistic, shallow nature of Tyrion's feelings for Shae are never brought to the surface. Tyrion thinks that he truly "loves" Shae at several points. By all indications, we are meant to take this at face value.)

10. GRRM further demonizes Shae and effectively rebuts any arguments that she did what she did due to her past and her profession by contrasting her with a "good" prostitute, with whom he contrasts the "evil" Shae. Shae's nastiness shines all the brighter when held up to her foil character, the noble, self-sacrificing, inexplicably loyal Alayaya. Alayaya is willing to be whipped for Tyrion's sake, though she has no reason to do this, or feel any loyalty towards him whatsoever. It is strongly implied that this is what a decent, good woman would do. I've frequently heard people note, "How could Shae have betrayed Tyrion? Even that Alayaya girl was wiling to get whipped for him!" The contrast between Shae and Alayaya is very intentional, and serves to make Shae look all the worse. The message is that Alayaya is decent, and that in sacrificing herself utterly for some guy, she makes the right choice. But honestly, I'd say she made an incredibly odd, almost to the point of being unbelievable, choice. Shae gets whipped and stands up to some of the most powerful people in Westeros.... all to protect the lies of a guy she barely knows. Alayaya's behavior is more than just "decent," it's bloody saintly.

Honestly, the "good" Alyaya is an utterly unrealistic character, simply there to make Shae look bad. She is also a male fantasy, much in the same way that Shae is a male fear. The hooker with a hear of gold-- Alayaya is gorgeous, extremely young, naturally decent, endlessly self-sacrificing, would never make fun of or betray a client, is not at all disgusted by having to sleep with fat old dudes all day, etc. This is a common fantasy because guys who go to prostitutes generally need to believe that the girls they're hooking up with is more than just young and gorgeous... she's an incredibly nice person, as well. That way, there's no way she could be disgusted by them, or laughing at their lack of sex appeal or lousy performance in bed. There's no possible way that such a good hooker would, right after hooking up with a guy like them, run straight off to their friends, and make fun of their last client. Shae, in contrast, is a male fear-- the hooker who would dare pretend to like them but really just be doing it for the money all along. (She must have a heart of stone, not to love her client!) And who is willing to embarrass them by revealing their sexual secrets.

11. Bronn, who does the exact same thing, is portrayed with great warmth and affection. A clear double standard. (Also, Bronn admits to be willing to kill babies for the right amount of cash. The worst thing Shae does is screw over Tyrion and testify against him falsely in court. There is no indication whatsoever that she'd be willing to kill infants for cash. And yet Bronn is far more widely liked, and held to be more moral than Shae. So.... killing babies is a lesser crime than embarrassing Tyrion?)

12. Tywin does the exact same thing, only rather than being Tyrion's hired girlfriend, he is the imp’s father. He has far, far more of a reason to be loyal to Tyrion than Shae does. Also, he has less at stake. Finally, he has done far, far worse than Shae's false testimony-- to Tyrion alone, he has had a 14-year-old girl raped, and had his 13-year-old son participate. Yet he is portrayed as complex and his motivations are emphasized; not so for Shae. And yes, I do think there is plenty of reason to look at Shae's complexities and motivations. For one thing, she played an important role. For another, it would add to Tyrion's character arc. If the reader saw Shae as a more complex character rather than an evil, one dimensional hooker who got what was coming for her, I think they'd be able to appreciate how much he is on the precipice, and how others get hurt by his cruel actions.

13. At Tyrion's trial, Shae is presented as evilly mocking Tyrion.

14. When she is killed, she inexplicably says "giant of Lanister" thing again. No way in hell Shae could have been that stupid. But as a literary device, it sure worked to make Shae look despicable and nasty to the reader. And thus almost-- if not fully-- deserving of her death.

15. As I mentioned, every little step is taken to avoid making Shae look sympathetic. When she is being strangled, her torturous struggles and last gasps for breath are ignored. Instead, Tyrion's tears are inexplicably focused on.

16. Varys, basically the Greek chorus in these books, indicates to Tyrion that there is no reason why Tyrion should like or feel loyalty towards a woman like Shae. Basically, this is the word of God stating that Shae is untrustworthy and has no apparent good qualities. “What do you see in her?” Varys asks.

15. Felix has said that Shae's murder was wrong. But like Shae giving testimony under threat, Tyrion's actions can be understood in context. Does it make either's actions OK? No. Just understandable in the circumstances.

16. AH!!! DON'T DO IT!!!

Message boards warp everything. Don't base your opinions on message boards.

I remember hating this one character after debating time and time again. Then, I reread everything and realized why I liked that character in the first place (just not as much as my favorite character who he was enemies with, which lead to the variety of debates).

17. Personally, I believe in "Fuck Tywin." That said, he is a bigger character than Shae even if he is never a POV. His actions have a far bigger effect in a broad sense and on the characters specifically.

18. Except for the story, Tywin needs complexity. That is what Felix is saying. Shae does not. A subtle difference then the circular argument you think Felix is giving. Also, Tywin IS more important than Shae. He has affected Westros in major ways since before Shae was born. Shae affected the development one major character. Tywin affected three at least (his children). That's not even considering the very long-reaching effects of some of his decisions. For example, he wanted Elia alive (if not her children) and sent Gregor to take her. It was a mistake. Now, 15+ years later, Dorne is plotting against the throne as Targ loyalists. That is one decision. Shae has never done anything as far reaching. Nor did she affect the development as many main characters as Tywin did.

19. OK. I am from here, going by your numbering rather than mine.

1. Tyrion is a main character.

2. She is a whore. And a poor one. Really it would be weird if she did not think money was the thing that mattered. It just shows money (or more the lack of) has affected her life. Honestly, I brushed it off. I don't think everyone who answers the rich man is greedy. It just shows what they think has the most power. As a poor whore, it makes sense that Shae would think its gold.

3. Maybe.

4. Significant? Yes. As significant as Tywin? No. Really, I simply saw Shae as someone harden by her experiences. She is more to be pitied than hated.

5. Actually, her comments about about Lollys made me think Shae must have suffered a lot.

6. Sansa was a threat to her. She had to suspect (correctly) that Tyrion would have no use for her if he started getting along with his life. Is it fair to blame Sansa? No. But it is hardly something vile.

7. Honestly, I never really thought of those as her dominant features. Maybe I'll look for it when/if I do a reread. But that probably won't be until before book 6 comes out.

8. Well, she was being paid. Bronn is another character that that sentence would apply to. And I really don't know many who would hold that against him. Nor do I think we're supposed to hate Bronn because he's only in it for his own benefit.

9. I am not quite sure how to respond to this.

Clearly, Tyrion's messed up in the head when it comes to women and affection. I don't see him recognizing this though. You are right with this point for the most part. But since it is Tyrion who is the POV, we are going to see what he sees even if the reality of the situation is distorted.

I am pretty sure this is a case of an unreliable narrator. It shows how Tyrion is kind of pathetic.

10. I've been following this Thread for a while, and I never seen Shae compared to Alayaya. Certainly, not frequently.

Alayaya is the daughter of a madame. She takes the whole discretion thing seriously. I always took it more as a professional thing than loyalty to Tyrion. The secret passage was probably not built for Tyrion. Nor was Tyrion probably the only noble who used her mom's place for "cover." Even if he was, if she started blabbing, the nobles who frequent there would stop for fear they would be next.

Over all, your comparison works and is quite interesting, if you buy Alayaya did it to protect Tyrion. I don't think she did. A hooker who becomes known for blabbing secrets to the public (not her friends/other hookers) is one that is not going to keep repeat customers. An important thing when you work in (and will most likely inherit) a brothel.

11. You're confusing the issue. I won't comment Bronn's actions = Shae's because I probably already did in this ridiculously long post. But anyways, liking Bronn and hating Shae does not mean baby murder is cool.

Morality does not necessarily play into liking a character. Bronn is an amoral badass. That's why he's awesome. Even if Shae was completely loyal to Tyrion, even if she gave her life under horrible torture to protect him, Bronn would still be liked more. His amorality is a big reason people like him.

And I don't know many people calling Bronn more moral than really anybody (other than the ridiculous people I just tend to ignore or at least forget about). People may consider his actions towards Tyrion at the trial more moral, but not Bronn.

12. As I said above, Tywin is a much more important character than Shae. He had a much bigger of an impact on Tyrion. And Jaime. And Cersei. And the princess of Dorne (since her whole life has been warped by her dad's silent and cautious quest for vengence). And pretty much everyone in Westros. As opposed to Shae who affected on main character.

13. Is there a good way to mock someone when you are testifying against them in a capital trial?

14. She was scared. People say and do stupid things when they are scared. Like Tyrion, Shae was hardly rational in that situation.

15. I have been writing this response for a VERY long time. So, I'll just give you this point rather than look up myself.

I will point out that since it was Tyrion's POV, his emotions and actions are probably going to come first.

16. Umm... is Varys really the person to go to when asking about women? Or trusting.