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Bowl o' Brown

Just finished Chapter 52

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Makes you wonder why ANYONE in Westeros would want to marry someone who is highborn...it's practically suicidal!!

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Highborn chicks are awesome though. They have super magical powers. Their blessing when you ride in tourneys adds to your strength and valor. :D

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You should have seen the look on my wife's face when I hurled that big bastard of a book across the living room...The Red Wedding will remain a flashbulb memory for me, probably for life. I never, in spite of the subtle warnings I took as Catelyn's paranoia (understandable though it was), saw that shite coming. I literally threw all 970? pages (hard-cover) across the room...walked outside to smoke a thousand cigs...and was amazed at how emotionally disturbed I was over a book. Highest compliment to Martin I can pay, I guess. I was so excited thinking that Cat would finally get some relief seeing Arya alive...

It's good to see that I wasn't the only one with such a reaction...kudos to Marin.

Very well said! My fiance was out of town and I was all alone in the house when I read this scene. I felt so... raw afterwards that I had to call him up almost in tears screaming at him why he didn't tell me this terrible nightmare was going to happen! This scene will forever be burned into my mind. I am not sure I can go through it again when they do this scene in the show... I do not know if my nerves can handle that all over again.

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I need to stop reading ABOUT the books and actually finish reading them...

Me too! I keep not being able to resist dipping into the general forums here and spoiling myself on minor stuff! :)

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Very well said! My fiance was out of town and I was all alone in the house when I read this scene. I felt so... raw afterwards that I had to call him up almost in tears screaming at him why he didn't tell me this terrible nightmare was going to happen! This scene will forever be burned into my mind. I am not sure I can go through it again when they do this scene in the show... I do not know if my nerves can handle that all over again.

Well at least you had someone who knew what you were upset about, even if they were out of town. When I read the Red Wedding there wasn't a soul in the world I knew who had read the book, I didn't even know about this website. I was hoping the Edmure compromise would be enough to keep the Freys reluctantly on-side, but there was always a feeling of dread about going to the Twins.

Honestly, I think if there are people who only watch the TV show and they remain completely unspoiled about the Red Wedding there could be some pretty dire emotional consequences; given how obsessed some people are. I mean check out Larry William's reaction to Ned's death in the TV show. Robb will be Ned*100.

If you know anyone who's only watching the show and they are really big fans, esp after the end of season 2, and they are the slightest bit emotionally iffy, I urge you to bug them continuously until they read A Storm of Swords in preparation.

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You, I will say, GRRM is both very subtle and very thorough with his foreshadowings. Someone was talking about foreshadowing, earlier in the thread. Here's some things I picked up on that troubled me, and made me dread the wedding even before I truly knew how it would end:

* Anyone else remember how, when Jaime Lannister left Harranhall, he told Lord Bolton to give his regards to Robb Stark? I was already thinking that Bolton was a turncloak long before that, and when he said that, I knew that somehow Bolton was going to betray Stark and kill him (at the Red Wedding, even though Walder Frey's men shoot him full of arrows, it's a man in a pink cloak who delivers the death blow; pink is the House Color of House Bolton, IIRC - so I think Bolton was the one who ultimately killed him).

* At the wedding feast, too many of the Freys that Robb knew and might have been loyal to him were missing "Away on duties".

* When Bolton arrived at The Twins, very conveniently, all the men from his army who weren't his own sworn men (like the Knights of White Harbor), just conveniently "happened" to have been cutoff from his men and killed by "The Mountain". If that isn't a lie, I don't know what is.

* Too many Frey people, and Lord Bolton, kept slipping out of the wedding hall

* Robb was separated from his army, and Lord Frey made sure they were good and drunk - giving them alcohol freely, but no food. I don't drink, but even I know you get drunker, faster when you drink without food. Something my folks always warned me about.

* As someone else mentioned above, Walder Frey says "mayhaps" when they enter his hall; you need a good memory for this particular clue, but in the first or second book, there was a scene where Brandon tells the reader about the Frey kid's game where you can't betray someone unless you say "mayhaps".

* Just, in general, Walder Frey's character. Ever since he demanded that Robb come to The Twins to apologize in person, and have an immediate wedding, I suspected a trap. Somehow, the Starks didn't see Walder for who he truly was. I saw him for who he was the very first time they came to the Crossing. They were heading to help Frey's Liege Lord, Hoster Tully, at Riverrun, and he wouldn't let them cross without a promise of marriage. I knew in that instant that Frey viewed Robb as a weak leader, and was a traitor to the Tully's. That Walder Frey wanted to be kingmaker - that is to say, he wouldn't wear the crown, but he wanted to be king-by-proxy. He wasn't just a "peevish old man who takes insult easily", but rather, a TRAITOR to his liege lord. I hate to say this, but the Starks and the Tully's should have gone all "Rains of Castemere" on him 20 years before Game of Thrones. He was a traitor then, and controlled the only significant bridge across a major river. Oh well.

One final thought - does anyone else think Robb had some thought it might come to this? I find it interesting that he names an heir *immediately* before going to The Twins. I think he suspected he might die at The Twins, but went anyway, on the hope that just maybe he could win back Lord Frey. I think he had decided that without Frey, his cause was lost anyhow.

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Well at least you had someone who knew what you were upset about, even if they were out of town. When I read the Red Wedding there wasn't a soul in the world I knew who had read the book, I didn't even know about this website. I was hoping the Edmure compromise would be enough to keep the Freys reluctantly on-side, but there was always a feeling of dread about going to the Twins.

Honestly, I think if there are people who only watch the TV show and they remain completely unspoiled about the Red Wedding there could be some pretty dire emotional consequences; given how obsessed some people are. I mean check out Larry William's reaction to Ned's death in the TV show. Robb will be Ned*100.

If you know anyone who's only watching the show and they are really big fans, esp after the end of season 2, and they are the slightest bit emotionally iffy, I urge you to bug them continuously until they read A Storm of Swords in preparation.

This is true! I am actually really glad that I have someone I can talk to about the book.

I was playing one of my games last night while chatting with a few friends online and happened to mention the series. A few people only started watching it and I told them.. You have to read the book. I can not tell you why, but just read it or you will end up not finishing the HBO series. I think I got a few people on the bandwagon last night!

Oh and yea, Larry William's reaction was epic in itself!

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I, fortunately, was not spoiled about 'Red Wedding' from the internet. I have this habit of staying away from searching for any of the stuff I am reading, or watching, until I have finished. This is difficult to do for ASoIaF because there are so many moments where you just want to hop on and share your views and theories about what just happened and what is going to happen next.

Anyway, as for the RW, I got a sense that something bad was going to happen when (1) Roslin Frey turned out to be beautiful, and (2) Walder Frey refused to provide food for Robb's army but was more than happy to provide ale and wine for them. Plus, I always had a doubt that something tragic will happen to Robb ever since he decided not to keep Grey Wind with him all the time. But I never guessed THIS would happen. When Bolton told Robb of a Lannister attack across the river, I thought that Walder Frey had made a deal with the lannisters, and that Robb would be imprisoned or something, and that the Westerlings would then help the Lannisters take over Riverrun (because in an earlier Tyrion chapter, Tywin Lannister was very non-challant about the Westerlings' 'betrayal').

I...I just think at this point that GRRM is being a little too harsh on the Starks. I have ranted a bit more about GRRM in another thread about the Twin Towers wedding, so I am not going to repeat it here.

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I had the name "Red Wedding" spoiled for me while I was still on GoT. Also descriptions like "you're going to throw your book against the wall and yell at someone because of this." So I knew it would be bad.

I think I made it even worse on myself by knowing the little I did, because of all the little hints leading up to the event. I was even in denial. Yeah, Robb will be at the Twins for a wedding, but Joffrey and Maegaery are getting married too! Maybe it'll be that one, like Joffrey will cut her throw in front of her family or something, and the reactions were just along the lines of "that insufferable little shit actually found a way to get more hated."

It was like a 600 page punch in the gut. Every chapter about either wedding just let me know more and more it would be the wedding at the Twins that got this name, and that it wouldn't be the Freys getting hit by the tragedy. Then the hard rains, Greywind trying to attack the Frey guards, all the buildup of "make sure you eat something so he CAN'T hurt you", the bride crying for seemingly no reason. Still I held on to hope. Maybe it'll just be Edmure, and Robb will be taken captive. Maybe they'll cut Catelyn's throat so we can be spared her "woe is me everyone is too busy to give attention my way" crap every 6 chapters (I, uh, didn't care for her much).

But I knew. I missed the mayhaps (damn that is clever writing) but the bad music, the separation of Robb's forces from where they could help, even Arya closing in, it all pointed to the single inevitability. And then...and then...

The Rains of Castamere :bawl:

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After I read the scene I couldn't sleep. That night I dreamt I had to tell Jon Snow of Robb's death!

To be honest I genuinely think the HBO show will be cancelled shortly after the Red Wedding. The books have barely recovered, let alone a television show.

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It still sounds like he wants the 'Red Wedding' to go ahead as planned, which is a good and a bad thing. Good because it's a powerful scene, bad because the show will lose loads of viewers with a single stroke. I imagine that AFFC and ADWD will be edited down a lot otherwise the show would quickly die.

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It still sounds like he wants the 'Red Wedding' to go ahead as planned...

The Red Wedding is not something one can write out of the series because then it would not be GRRM's GoT. But the marketing team will definitely have to work hard to tease the viewers who would be turned off by this that there are even better twists and turns coming up in the series. They do this kind of thing for a living so it shouldn't be that difficult for them. Personally, I have read a few chapters after RW and some of the plot twists are good, and definitely capable of keeping a viewer's interest if done right, which HBO is capable of doing.

Post RW: Finally, one of the bad guys dies. Although not any of the major player but still someone that impacts the story-line.

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As much as RW seems like a perfect stopping point for season 3, there's definitely that risk of losing everyone when they have a year to curse HBO and GRRM's names for that scene. They may have to add an episode, ending with

Joff choking to death

or just having both in the same episode.

I'm just hoping it makes it that long. The reactions, oh the precious reactions will be great to see

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I finished the chapter and it killed a bit of my desire to keep reading. I found the stories around the Starks starting with Ned and finishing up with the Red Wedding to be more interesting then the story of Daenerys or Jon Snow up to this point. Going forward it seems the Others and the possible return of Daenerys seem to be shaping up to be the main story movers, but if so it would make the first 2 1/2 books nothing but a prologue and as a reader it would make me feel a bit cheated.

I am also finding the cloak of invulnerability that the more sinister characters wear to be a bit tiring, I for one would have expected one of them at least to have perished by now; particularly, in the riot at King's Landing or the Battle of Blackwater. Let us also not forget Jamie Lanister who has had ample time to be killed. Hopefully one of the Karsarks will put an end to his constant whining soon, and on that subject why was not Lord Karsark given the chance to take the black?

Hopefully I find something to cheer for by the end of the book, but at this rate Jon Snow will be wiped out by wildlings and one of the blood riders will murder Daenerys for her dragons and all I will be left with is a series about an Onion Knight.

To be fair I think part of my attachment to the King of the North story comes from how well HBO portrayed the Stark family in the TV series, which I watched before reading the books. The did a brilliant job in my opinion, but they cut a lot of the screen time for some of the other stories and as a result I think I am less inclined to latch on to other characters. As an example The Hound is definitively a bit more sympathetic in the books, but alas he is so far not a PoV character, and he will most likely die soon.

Perhaps Arya Stark will become a faceless girl and kill of all those people she keeps on her list, ah the thought of it makes me smile, and with that I am off to keep reading. At least I still have one person to cheer for!

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...but at this rate Jon Snow will be wiped out by wildlings and one of the blood riders will murder Daenerys for her dragons...

I am curious as to what makes you think that.

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As much as RW seems like a perfect stopping point for season 3, there's definitely that risk of losing everyone when they have a year to curse HBO and GRRM's names for that scene. They may have to add an episode, ending with

Joff choking to death

or just having both in the same episode.

I'm just hoping it makes it that long. The reactions, oh the precious reactions will be great to see

I personally think the Red Wedding shouldn't happen until the 4th season, and it should happen very near the start (perhaps first Episode). As if it happens early enough in the 3rd series it will mean the storyline has been rushed. Later on in novel

A good finishing point for the 3rd season would be Ygritte's death at the wall.

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I personally think the Red Wedding shouldn't happen until the 4th season, and it should happen very near the start (perhaps first Episode). As if it happens early enough in the 3rd series it will mean the storyline has been rushed.

A good finishing point for the 3rd season would be Ygritte's death at the wall.

Luckily I just made it to this chapter, but I think it your last sentence should be in spoiler text as it comes after chapter 52.

I agree that ending the story at the Red Wedding would be a terrible idea. The only reason to do it is if you know the show is canceled and you want to wrap this up as a story about the fall of the House of Stark.

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I am curious as to what makes you think that.

It was mostly written in frustration, but to be honest I really to expect things to go badly at some point for those two.

We really don't know much about the blood riders PoV and things seem to be going just a bit too perfect for the mother of dragons. It stretched credibility a bit that no one has tried to take them by force when she just had a small number of supporters with her, and I can't but help and think that Martin is setting her up for the fall.

In regards to Jon Snow, the wildlings greatly out number the watch and the wildlings have freaking Giants... I don't see a way that they don't make it over, around, or under the wall in great numbers at some point.

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Luckily I just made it to this chapter, but I think it your last sentence should be in spoiler text as it comes after chapter 52.

I agree that ending the story at the Red Wedding would be a terrible idea. The only reason to do it is if you know the show is canceled and you want to wrap this up as a story about the fall of the House of Stark.

Yeah sorry about that, edited now!

American TV is way too gung-ho about cancelling shows. It's so irritating, I'm surprised anyone in America watches tv!

I think the cliff hanger of the Red Wedding would wrap up the fall of Stark, but open so many more questions that it really wouldn't be a good finisher. We've just got to hope people keep watching! Luckily word of mouth for the show is good!

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