Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Triskele

White-Luck Warrior IV

Recommended Posts

The other thread has reached twenty pages and fallen off of the front page, so I figured I ought to start up the next one.

This may be a fool's errand, but I'm very curious about the Cishaurim right now. Unless someone can find me a dead-ringer from the text, I am not entirely sure that what they do is even sorcery, or if it is, it is different enough from other sorcery to merit its own distinction. It also seems to be deliberately vague as to how a Cichaurim dies when touched by a Chorae. It seems like they glow with light and burn away rather than turn to salt. I just have the feeling that this has to mean something, but we'll see.

Some of you may be interested to see an entry that was left out of the TTT appendix. It's over on page 4 of the "Riddle of Steel" thread in Gen Chat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The other thread has reached twenty pages and fallen off of the front page, so I figured I ought to start up the next one.

This may be a fool's errand, but I'm very curious about the Cishaurim right now. Unless someone can find me a dead-ringer from the text, I am not entirely sure that what they do is even sorcery, or if it is, it is different enough from other sorcery to merit its own distinction. It also seems to be deliberately vague as to how a Cichaurim dies when touched by a Chorae. It seems like they glow with light and burn away rather than turn to salt. I just have the feeling that this has to mean something, but we'll see.

Some of you may be interested to see an entry that was left out of the TTT appendix. It's over on page 4 of the "Riddle of Steel" thread in Gen Chat.

It's the neverending thread! I get to page 13 on number 3 only for another to appear. I'm nearly there though.

Interesting point on the cish maybe not even being magical. What would you say they were doing though, is it some kind of bios or tekne?

I'd be amazed if Kellhus doesn't have some of his devotees trying this branch of magic though. Surely any zaudanyi with anagogic/gnosis would make an excellent tool - especially as it seems to be an emotional magic. Surely fanatics are ideal candidates?

I still wonder whether the gnosis is entirely passionless too. I recall earlier in the series Kellhus or xinemus commenting on how akka was powerful because of his passion. It may just be a character thing but I sometimes wonder. If akka did get his hands on the Psuke too he'd be pretty tough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's the neverending thread! I get to page 13 on number 3 only for another to appear. I'm nearly there though.

Interesting point on the cish maybe not even being magical. What would you say they were doing though, is it some kind of bios or tekne?

I'd be amazed if Kellhus doesn't have some of his devotees trying this branch of magic though. Surely any zaudanyi with anagogic/gnosis would make an excellent tool - especially as it seems to be an emotional magic. Surely fanatics are ideal candidates?

I still wonder whether the gnosis is entirely passionless too. I recall earlier in the series Kellhus or xinemus commenting on how akka was powerful because of his passion. It may just be a character thing but I sometimes wonder. If akka did get his hands on the Psuke too he'd be pretty tough.

I was thinking Kellhus might want to have a bunch of Psukhe users as well, but really I'm not sure if they have a significant advantage over other magic users. I think it more likely that the revelation of the Psukhe, that they recollect a larger part of the God of Gods fragmented into sentients, will play a role. As in, if Kellhus ends up recollecting more than anyone, he will be incredibly powerful. Of course the only passion he seems to have is his insane(?) belief in his own divinity...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
epic 1st post

Welcome to the board!

In the confrontation between Achamian and Cleric, why was the Concussion Cant not blocked by Cleric's incipient Wards? Those same Wards saved Achamian and Cleric from Wutteat's fires only pages before. Is the idea that Cleric never reinstated them? There was quite a lot of talk about how formidable a Quya mage must be - "Few powers in the world could rank a Quya mage", thought Achamian. "Among them, well...ME." I expected more from Cleric, frankly.

Cleric spoke no Wards. I believe that on some level, he wanted to lose.

In TJE, I took the following to imply that the Swayali were an Anagogic School: "Spectral walls parsed the Charnal Hall, the ghosts of cyclopean bricks..."

Was that a mistake? The similarity to descriptions of Anagogic Wards seems quite evident.

It could have been a mistake, but I don't think so. It's possible the Swayali have both Gnostic and Anagogic Schoolwomen. The School is very new and has grown fast. Maybe Gnostic teachers were in short supply, so they settled with teaching the Anagogis to, say, the least promising students. If so, it would also make sense that low grade Anagogic witches remain home, while top-of-the-line Gnostic ones are all with the Ordeal.

I hope Akka does head to Ishteribinth, where Nin'Sariccas offers to take him to see The Last Nonman King, Nil'Giccas, at which point Akka reaches into his pouch, does a fat rail of Nil'Giccas, and gives those lying, obscenity-loving ghouls a taste of the Gnosis.

"This is for Cleric, bitches."

Indeed!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been trying to find the passage in the books that mentions the whole history of the Cunoroi-Inchoroi wars, all the stuff about the two brothers being placed to watch Min-Uroikis, and Cinmoi taking the corpse of his dead wife to Golgoterath; the basic history of the womb plague. I am sure I read it, but I can't for the life of me find it again- if anybody knows exactly where, I'd really appreciate a reference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did some research on Cish and got mostly blanks, but I thought I might post some sorcery related excerpts from RSB on 3seas that relate to discusions earlier in the previous thread.

Regarding Cish's reaction to chorae, there are two descriptions of a flash of incandescence rimmed with 'black light' or somesuch and no specific descriptions of the resultant corpses that I could find.

Chorae

Personally, I've always worried that the Chorae may come across as too ad hoc, as mere narrative conveniences that allow a happy (but not very credible) balance between the sorcerous and the non-sorcerous. But in point of fact, that role came after - the Chorae developed independently. From the outset, I've looked at each of the sorcerous branches in linguistic terms, as practices where language commands, rather than conforms to, reality. So the Anagogis turns on the semantic power of figurative analogies, the Gnosis turns on the semantic power of formal generalizations, the Psukhe turns on speaker intention, and so on. And much as language undoes itself in paradoxes, sorcery can likewise undo itself. The Aporos is this 'sorcery of paradox,' where the meanings that make sorcery possible are turned in on themselves to generate what might be called 'contradiction fields.'

... the depth of the Mark is proportional to the amount of sorcery cast, and the severity of the Chorae is proportional the depth of the Mark.

Sorcery

The sorcery of the Three Seas, Anagogic (and Daimotic) sorcery, arose from its shamanistic roots without the benefit of the Quya, the Nonmen sorcerer caste, whose sorcery was ancient before the Tusk was even written. The Gnosis, the sorcery of the Ancient North, is the result of what was called the Nonman Tutelage, a period in ancient Norsirai history marked by cultural exchanges between Nonmen and Men. The Gnosis is simply what the Anagogis could be, if the proper conceptual leaps were made...

Differences between sorcerers sharing the same Metaphysics is determined in much the same way differences in any profession are: native ability, knowledge, training, and experience.

Daimos

The Daimos is a subcategory of the Anagogis, and though the Gnostic Schools have flirted with summoning various 'Agencies' (to use the Nonman term for gods and demons), the Daimos is largely monopolized by the Scarlet Spires. It's a powerful weapon indeed. (Wait and see!)

Outside

... there's three basic options: Oblivion, Damnation, or Redemption. The idea is that without the interest of the various 'agencies' (as the Nonmen call them) inhabiting the Outside, one simply falls into oblivion - dies. Certain acts attract the interest of certain agencies. One can, and most Inrithi do, plead to redeemed ancestors to intercede on their behalf, but most give themselves over to some God. Doing so, however, puts their souls entirely into play, and the more sketchy one's life is, the more liable one is to be 'poached' by the demonic, and to live out eternity in everlasting torment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When do these posts date back to? I'm just wondering what's on the horizon with regards to the Daimos ("wait and see!"). Was that a reference to Iyokus in TTT, or is there something badass on the way?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that particular post was right before TTT, but I could swear RSB saying something about the Daimos with regards to the trilogy we're currently in. Perhaps he was referring to Kellhus jumping into the Outside, perhaps he was referring to something that will happen in the last book.

I suspect the Daimos will play a role in the battle with the Consult, given that the armies exist largely to get the Schools to Golgotterath.

Thanks for digging up the references to magic Curethan - though I still think the Anagnosis should be able to do things the Gnosis can't. Some things can only be approached by analogy, and analogy also can encompass complex concepts the pure logic of the Gnosis shouldn't be able to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Daimos is a subcategory of the Anagogis, and though the Gnostic Schools have flirted with summoning various 'Agencies' (to use the Nonman term for gods and demons), the Daimos is largely monopolized by the Scarlet Spires. It's a powerful weapon indeed. (Wait and see!)

This quote was November 2005.

TTT came out Jan 2006.

So it may have been referring to Iyokus' summoning in TTT.

I'm still hoping Kellhus, or perhaps Iyokus, summons a god or multiple gods once they hit Golgotterath in TUC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shit, or this one:

by Entropic_existence » Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:36 pm

Yea, during the whole teaching story arc my anticipation kept building and building. And finally, when the Gnosis was unleashed by Kellhus for a moment I felt much how Achamian must have felt... as if he was standing in the presence of someone as close to the God as humanity could get.

Entropic_existence

And Scott's response:

by Cu'jara Cinmoi » Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:21 am

Just wait!

*evil cackle*

Basically I think that strongly suggests Kell becomes a God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the idea that Meppa is the Second Apocalypse version or the Heron Spear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the idea that Meppa is the Second Apocalypse version or the Heron Spear.

Heh, I think I conjured up that crackpottery in one of the previous threads. I have no idea if there could be anything to it. But one does have to wonder about the Heron Spear. I would assume that it's lost or broken, so if the No-God walks there must presumably be some other way to destroy it. As far as we know the No-God is protected from the sookay by its Chorae, but is it possible that someone can bear more Water than any other?

Also, we don't know enough about the No-God to know for sure that it will be resurrected in the exact same way as it was before; the carapace within the whirlwind. I suspect that it will be the same, but I don't know for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread is also interesting - especially Scott's reply on the question whether Iyokus is dead or not:

Iyokus is definately NOT dead....

With a little devil smiley.

I guess this, together with the other hints above, means we will indeed see some more of the Daimos in TUC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crackpottery:

I think this has been discussed a bit before, but we know that Meppa does not know who he is. He does not recollect. But is the Psukhe not partly about recollecting The God's voice? If so, could Meppa perhaps better recollect the God's voice since his memory isn't as crowded from his recollections of who he is? Is there a chance that the ultimate Cishaurim would blind themselves to the mundane world and to their own identity in order to even better recollect The God's voice?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crackpottery:

I think this has been discussed a bit before, but we know that Meppa does not know who he is. He does not recollect. But is the Psukhe not partly about recollecting The God's voice? If so, could Meppa perhaps better recollect the God's voice since his memory isn't as crowded from his recollections of who he is? Is there a chance that the ultimate Cishaurim would blind themselves to the mundane world and to their own identity in order to even better recollect The God's voice?

And these themes -- blindness, memory loss, divinity -- are already associated:

WHO AM I? WHAT DO YOU SEE?

If Meppa shows up with a metal sarcophagus, run.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crackpottery:

I think this has been discussed a bit before, but we know that Meppa does not know who he is. He does not recollect. But is the Psukhe not partly about recollecting The God's voice? If so, could Meppa perhaps better recollect the God's voice since his memory isn't as crowded from his recollections of who he is? Is there a chance that the ultimate Cishaurim would blind themselves to the mundane world and to their own identity in order to even better recollect The God's voice?

Yeah, I suggested something similar in the last thread. Is his loss of memory and identity self-inflicted like his blindness? It does seem as if that kind of self-mutilation might lend greater purity to his passion and his faith (and therefore his water).

Of course, it could also be that someone else created this water-bearing phenom. (Moe?) I like the idea of Meppa as a massive weapon wandering in from the desert. And this goes well with your Meppa as Heron Spear idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I suggested something similar in the last thread. Is his loss of memory and identity self-inflicted like his blindness? It does seem as if that kind of self-mutilation might lend greater purity to his passion and his faith (and therefore his water).

Of course, it could also be that someone else created this water-bearing phenom. (Moe?) I like the idea of Meppa as a massive weapon wandering in from the desert. And this goes well with your Meppa as Heron Spear idea.

Ha! I had the same thought about Moenghus when I was typing my last post. Same line of thinking too. I was like "What if Meppa is someone's experiment?" Some kind of contingency in case the No-God walked and the Heron Spear could not be recovered.

Also, while the text does suggest that Chorae protect against the Psukhe, I think it's interesting that Fane didn't discover Water until thousands of years after The Aporos created the trinkets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First post...

Anyone else think (hope) that the increased mentions of Cnaiur in WLW might be a little bit of foreshadowing to a possible return?

Just spitballing, but I really want him to come back as more hands-on Consult POV, as opposed to the occasional Skin-Spy or Aurang's one appearance this trilogy (So far, I should say).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×