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Triskele

White-Luck Warrior IV

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Ha! I had the same thought about Moenghus when I was typing my last post. Same line of thinking too. I was like "What if Meppa is someone's experiment?" Some kind of contingency in case the No-God walked and the Heron Spear could not be recovered.

Also, while the text does suggest that Chorae protect against the Psukhe, I think it's interesting that Fane didn't discover Water until thousands of years after The Aporos created the trinkets.

I think this bit of quote comes closest to outright confirmation that the Psukhe is sorcery.

From the outset, I've looked at each of the sorcerous branches in linguistic terms, as practices where language commands, rather than conforms to, reality. So the Anagogis turns on the semantic power of figurative analogies, the Gnosis turns on the semantic power of formal generalizations, the Psukhe turns on speaker intention, and so on. And much as language undoes itself in paradoxes, sorcery can likewise undo itself. The Aporos is this 'sorcery of paradox,' where the meanings that make sorcery possible are turned in on themselves to generate what might be called 'contradiction fields.'

The impression I got whilst reading through all these old threads is that the Gnosis and Anagogic are versions of the same thing and work on the same metaphysical principles. Using an metaphor here, perhaps they are different forms of combustion engine, whereas the psukhe is steam power (or jet propulsion, to illustrate the difference in the physical principles of operation rather than the raw power outputs).

The Psukhe, whilst still an example of language commanding reality, does not fixate on semantics. It's all about intent. So rather than illustrating through analogy or abstractions they are imposing meaning by some other means - more demonstrative and intuitive.

There is a entry in TTTG about the 'world between';

The world as it exists "between" or perceptions of it, or "in itself".

It would appear this is where sorcery visibly operates and where the distiction of the Mark occurs. Because the Psukhe turns on imposing intent upon things (how they are and how they should be) rather than some semantic distiction (how they exist and how they are percieved by others) there is no distinguishable Mark because the sorcery weilder has left no gap between what they have wrought and how they believe things should be. (An honest lie, if you will).

The ability of Chorae to contradict this and return the sorcerous effect to the 'way god intended' reveals that there is some kind of not readily percieved Mark.

eta; I think Iyokus is likely to be involved in any experiment into the psukhe's metaphysics. Kellhus surely wouldn't discard such a potentialy useful tool, but the Cish were pretty unusable because of their religous fanatacism. Plus there was the question Incariol raised above - we still gotta see Iyokus' impact as the Blind Necromancer (now with soul trapping tech, fire scrying, third sight and added chanv).

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I got to disagree with what seem to be a growing crackpot consensus here. I have no higher expectations of the Psûkhe being very important for the plot in the future, other than Meppa possibly giving us some further insight into the Outside and the metaphysics of Eärwa.

The Psûkhe won't kill the No-God. The Carapace has several embedded Chorae. I don't think the Consult have removed this highly popular feature, and if they did, Mog would be eminently killable with standard Gnostic sorceries. And we know that Chorae undo Psûkhic(???) sorceries as easily as Gnostic and Anagogic ones.

One thing I am curious about is how the Consult are going to use the apparently obscene amount of Chorae they have. What could, say, 10,000 Chorae-packing Bashrags accomplish?

There's some ten thousand or so estimated to be in the Three Seas. Then there's the famed 'Chorae Hoard' of Sakarpus, and the far greater hoard amassed by the Consult in Golgotterath.

ETA: Quote.

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Bad but not completely unexpected news - the publishing date for TUC seems to have moved. It is now July 5 2012 according to Amazon.uk.

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One thing I am curious about is how the Consult are going to use the apparently obscene amount of Chorae they have. What could, say, 10,000 Chorae-packing Bashrags accomplish?

That’s something I’d like to discuss. Numbers.

According to Simas,

We estimate that the Thousand Temples itself has some four to five thousand Chorae, which means it could field at least as many men immune to whatever sorceries we could muster. Add to that all of the Inrithi lords who also bear Trinkets, and Maithanet could field an army of perhaps ten thousand men who would be immune to us in every way.

The Chorae Hoard of Sakarpus must be of the same order of magnitude. Thousands, if not tens of thousands.

So we can posit that the Great Ordeal travels with, say, 25,000 Chorae.

The Consult should possess similar numbers, should they not? Maybe more. They have ruled Kuniüri for millennia, and the Sranc are smart enough to be trained to find Chorae. I wager that the majority of the world’s Chorae remain in the North.

So, 10,000 Bashrag with Chorae is completely possible. The Consult does not need to research tanks. They already have something better.

The Great Ordeal travels with a quarter of a million soldiers, right? The Sranc are clearly counted in millions as well, and unbreakable.

From memory, there are 250 to 350 Swayali. White Luck Warrior gives the combined number of Vokalati and Mandati, I think. It’s in the chapter where the Mandati are outsourced to the Army of the South. I think there are 300 male Gnostics of rank, and 250 understudies, but I may misremember.

But let’s say there are 1000 sorcerers with Kellhus, or maybe 2000.

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continuing my string of really obvious questions on this thread; who is the person on the front cover of the The Judging Eye and The White Luck Warrior? At the beginning I thought it was Kellhus, but Kellhus is blond and the person depicted, at least on the UK cover, is dark haired.

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continuing my string of really obvious questions on this thread; who is the person on the front cover of the The Judging Eye and The White Luck Warrior? At the beginning I thought it was Kellhus, but Kellhus is blond and the person depicted, at least on the UK cover, is dark haired.

That’s not how covers work. It’s just a picture that the publisher’s art director thought would sell books. Neither the artist nor the cover designer have any idea of what a Kellhus is.

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It's some artist's impression of some guy.

I always assumed it was Akka, but I can't say if that makes sense or not. Never thought a lot about it.

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So we can posit that the Great Ordeal travels with, say, 25,000 Chorae.

My guesstimate ends up slightly lower than that, at 16,000-23,000.

But it all depends on how big the Chorae Hoard is. My guess is 5,000-10,000, but we don't really know.

Also, I add a few to Simas's numbers (which I put at 10,000-11,000) to account for Chorae held by the Schools. I'm sure Kellhus have expropriated these. Say 1,000-2,000 more.

The Consult should possess similar numbers, should they not?

I'm certain they have more. How much more is a question of how much more Scott wants it to be. We only know that the number is "far greater" - which I interpret as at least an order of magnitude greater - than the Hoard of Sakarpus.

They have ruled Kuniüri for millennia, and the Sranc are smart enough to be trained to find Chorae. I wager that the majority of the world’s Chorae remain in the North.

I won't bet against you. The Consult also have a few Erratic Quya available with little else on their hands. They could theoretically walk about and search for Chorae on any old battlefield and/or devastated city they know about. For a few hundred years or so. So most of those remaining in the North would have been found, if the Consult really wanted to find them.

Also - if the Consult still have any reasonably functional Aporetic sorcerers around, which is theoretically possible, if Scott wants to have it that way - they might be able to manufacture as many as they like.

The Sranc are clearly counted in millions as well, and unbreakable.

This I liked a lot in WLW. Even if they are fairly low quality troops, they are so ridiculously uncountable that there is not even a point in killing them at all. You just get tired and risk hurting yourself, while new Sranc replace the old ones.

ETA: Nice new avatar, HE. I'm glad that muppet link was useful.

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I have a question.

It seems generally agreed here that Kellhus sacrificed the Army of the South when he might have saved them - to be honest, not sure where I sit with this.

Anyhow, if he intended that, he essentially decided to destroy the Mandate and the Volakati. Now the Nilnameshi School might have been expendable but almost the entire Mandate is dead. I'm just not sure the Swayali are worth more than the Mandate were.

Why would Kellhus have done that?

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I have a question.

It seems generally agreed here that Kellhus sacrificed the Army of the South when he might have saved them - to be honest, not sure where I sit with this.

Anyhow, if he intended that, he essentially decided to destroy the Mandate and the Volakati. Now the Nilnameshi School might have been expendable but almost the entire Mandate is dead. I'm just not sure the Swayali are worth more than the Mandate were.

Why would Kellhus have done that?

Wait - most of the Mandate is dead? I must of missed this...and it feels off if that's the case, since even a "lowly" spy like Akka could take on multiple sorcerers of Rank, not to mention easily go toe-to-toe with the Scarlet Spires Grandmaster.

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Severely diminished anyways. Between the Horde, the Ten Yoke Legion, and the Volakati themselves, the Mandate took a huge hit.

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I don't think they were involved at all in the Horde/Ten Yoke Legion battle, that was a Swayali show. I don't think the Swayali lost many either, if so I missed it completely.

My guess is that the Mandate lost at most between 10-25% of their sorcerers vs the Vokalati, and those would predominantly have been lower ranked ones who couldn't defend themselves properly. Saccarees himself would probably have taken most Vokalati fire of any single sorcerer, and he pulled through ok.

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It wasn't clear to me how many of the Mandate had joined the Army of the South. Saccarees was obviously there, but I don't recall if it spelled out how many. Also, it seems most of the Vokalati were destroyed, but I'm not sure that there weren't a decent amount of Mandati survived the disaster as "Their Aspect-Emperor bid them follow him home." The Army of the South faced a total disaster, but that implies to me that a decent amount of sorcerers survived.

As to the whole Meppa theories, I'm not on board with actually thinking he's the Heron Spear of this Apocalypse. I just think it's a cool idea. I am curious, if Meppa isn't going to reveal anything special the Psukhe or Fanim faith or what have you, then what's the point of having this one sole Cishaurim with amnesia back in the story? He doesn't seem to explain to me why Fanayal is ascendant. Sure, it's nice to have one Incandati-type with you, but it's just one.

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It is said: a man is born of his mother and is fed of his mother. Then he is fed of the land, and the land passes through him, taking and giving a pinch of dust each time, until man is no longer of his mother, but of the land.

—SCYLVENDI PROVERB

my feeble brain wants to connect this to qirri.

Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.

—AJENCIS, THE FOURTH ANALYTIC OF MAN

considering Cishaurim, I'm wondering if this is perhaps why Moe struggles so much with Cis magic, he could fake passion and he could fake faith better than any man living, but if his passion isn't true... And the reason he'd have trouble having real passion or real faith is because of the latter sentance of this quote; it's interesting to note that 'of nothing' phrase and how it relates to the Dunyain project.

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Another random musing (forget if anyone has already brought this up).

The Dunyain refer to the things that they cannot control as "Legion." We learn this in one of the flashbacks to a Pragma training session.

When Cleric is having his final erratic freakout at the end of WLW he says "We are legion."

Are we supposed to make anything of this?

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Another random musing (forget if anyone has already brought this up).

The Dunyain refer to the things that they cannot control as "Legion." We learn this in one of the flashbacks to a Pragma training session.

When Cleric is having his final erratic freakout at the end of WLW he says "We are legion."

Are we supposed to make anything of this?

Hmmm. There's also the moment in TJE where Akka worries Cleric sounds too much like Kellhus. Is it possible Kellhus met Cleric at some point before the Nonman joined the skin spies? Perhaps Kellhus introduced Cleric and Kosoter?

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The way I read it that all the armies and all the Schools were besieged by the Ten-Yoke Legion and the Horde from behind and in front and we just happened to focus on Kayutas and Serwa's army. The Schools were all involved in the Culling the whole time. The Great Ordeal repels the squash between the Ten-Yoke and the gathering Horde and the Sranc just kind of mobbed North after that. Then the Horde (at this point, the remnants of the Ten-Yoke Legion as well) gets stuck on the river and destroys the Army of the South as they are most exposed.

Anyhow:

WLW, p. 454

And so the number of Kites flown by the Army of the South was doubled. More than three hundred sorcerers of rank and some two hundred more understudies now strode through the sepulchral clouds above the Horde.

So half that is Mandate after the culling and before the defeat of the Army of the South.

WLW, p. 490

Saccarees closed with the madmen . . . Overmatched, Carindusu was struck from the skies, undone.

Not knowing what happened several Vokalati asssailed Saccarees - then several more, until fairly half the Vokalati found themselves attacking for no reason save that their brothers had so turned in violence. And so did the Schools of Mandate and Vokalati consume each other in a final act of madness.

WLW, p.495

Saccarees, however, stood alone and brooding, shunned because of his rumoured fratricide.

Huge. I don't know how many Mandate are gone but many, indeed, are. I thought this was important, regardless that the Swayali Dream as the Mandate does.

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The way I read it that all the armies and all the Schools were besieged by the Ten-Yoke Legion and the Horde from behind and in front and we just happened to focus on Kayutas and Serwa's army. The Schools were all involved in the Culling the whole time. The Great Ordeal repels the squash between the Ten-Yoke and the gathering Horde and the Sranc just kind of mobbed North after that. Then the Horde (at this point, the remnants of the Ten-Yoke Legion as well) gets stuck on the river and destroys the Army of the South as they are most exposed.

Anyhow:

WLW, p. 454

So half that is Mandate after the culling and before the defeat of the Army of the South.

WLW, p. 490

WLW, p.495

Huge. I don't know how many Mandate are gone but many, indeed, are. I thought this was important, regardless that the Swayali Dream as the Mandate does.

I read it as halve the Vokalati attacking Mandate. Many of those probably survived. Not even talking about the Mandate. The Grandmaster then stands alone in Council if i recall correctly. The other Mandate wouldn't be there.

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I would say this is a case of Bakker's ambiguity. The third quote I just posted because I think it's interesting.

But:

And so did the Schools of Mandate and Vokalati consume each other in a final act of madness.

Seems pretty relevant?

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