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Triskele

White-Luck Warrior IV

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A guess at numbers of Mandati destroyed:

Assume that 2/3 of the Vokalati started fighting the Mandate. The others were too far away, lost in the cloud, or what have you.

Then, let's assume it takes five Anagogic guys to take out one Gnostic.

That implies 2/3 of the Vokalati takes out roughly 2/3 / 5 = 2/15 of the Mandate before being diced by Abstractions. Around 13%.

ETA: This is probably on the high side, as it assumes local superiority in numbers for the Vokalati - the Vokalati are only being considered to be fighting the 2/15 that are subsequently destroyed, and not, say, 2/3 of the Mandate, which might be a more reasonable assumption.

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Speaking of 5:1 Anagogic on Gnostic, I really want to know if Achamian is really that awesome, or whether those numbers are typical of a Gnostic sorcerer. Achamian at one point thinks that Eli could beat him, but I don't really see that as possible, Achamian was short-selling himself. Or maybe Eli really was that good, dunno.

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There's a line in TDTCB where Eli is pissed because Akka indirectly warns him that he'll stop the Grandmaster from cooking the people who are jeering at them. Eli notes that the Gnosis is that powerful, that a midlevel guy like Akka can (easily?) defeat a Scarlet Spire Grandmaster.

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Speaking of 5:1 Anagogic on Gnostic, I really want to know if Achamian is really that awesome, or whether those numbers are typical of a Gnostic sorcerer. Achamian at one point thinks that Eli could beat him, but I don't really see that as possible, Achamian was short-selling himself. Or maybe Eli really was that good, dunno.

When is this? Does he actually wonder if he could lose a straight up one-on-one to Eli?

I realize that there's a bit of random chance D&D rules and stuff going on here. It's not like you can just take any two sorcerers, match them up, and say that one would always beat the other. But my impression was that any Mandati of rank ought to be able to take out the best Anagogic sorcerer of all most of the time.

If I recall the scene correctly, Eli is eventually taken out by two Incandati. Seokti and one other. But this was right after he'd nearly taken out Seokti one-on-one before another intervened.

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How many Scarlet Spires did Akka fight in the Saröetic Library in TWP? I got the impression that that fight actually was fairly even. And when he escaped he killed a few too, wasn't that something like five? And Iyokus only got away by going Daimotic. Also, he obliterated a few Saik easily in TTT.

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We are definitely speculating, but I don't believe that the Gnosis is actually 5X better than the Analogies. I would imagine something like 3X. Achamian is a pretty strong Mandate sorcerer, certainly above average.

With the quote: "And so did the Schools of Mandate and Vokalati consume each other in a final act of madness." I interpret the "final act" to be the final act of the battle, not of the Mandate and Vokalati. I really don't see how we can assume that the Mandate was decimated by the Vokalti. Even 2/3rds of the Vokalti were fully committed to the battle, they couldn't kill that many of the Mandate because they are inferior sorcerers. Considering that Saccarees himself survived the battle, and he was the first to be ambushed by the Vokalati, it seems very unlikely that significant numbers of Mandate Sorcerers of Rank were killed (possibly none at all).

The only other explanation for this would be if Saccarees is far above the other Mandati (feeding into the Saccarees is Dunyain theory, which I do not find credible).

It is possible that a significant portion of the Vokalati were killed in the battle. Anagogics who tangle with Gnostic sorcerers don't seem to live very long.

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How many Scarlet Spires did Akka fight in the Saröetic Library in TWP? I got the impression that that fight actually was fairly even. And when he escaped he killed a few too, wasn't that something like five? And Iyokus only got away by going Daimotic. Also, he obliterated a few Saik easily in TTT.

I think that it was seven SS in Iothiah, and he'd definitely killed a few of them before it was over.

And yeah, he gets attacked by a handful of Saik in TTT and the way the text reads to me he takes them all out fairly easily. I want to say it was four or so, but I am not certain if we were ever given the number. But I do remember something like "One by one he pulled them from the sky."

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I think that it was seven SS in Iothiah, and he'd definitely killed a few of them before it was over.

And yeah, he gets attacked by a handful of Saik in TTT and the way the text reads to me he takes them all out fairly easily. I want to say it was four or so, but I am not certain if we were ever given the number. But I do remember something like "One by one he pulled them from the sky."

I think he also easily cuts through the Saik Grandmaster, whose bloods sprays over Conphas?

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I think Madness might have been wanting to look at Kellhus' strategy rather than comparing sorcerous muscles again.

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Let's discuss what "Soon" means to Bakker, and when we'll see the answers to those damn questions. I feel as if, compared to previous books, TWLW didn't really open the doors of rampant speculation. Bakker's answers could really put some fuel to the fire in here.

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Yeah, I definitely feel like my question still stands.

Perhaps, Kellhus couldn't have foreseen Carindusu's treachery but if Kellhus was intent on sacrificing the Army of the South, why send the Mandate at all?

I also wanted to say that I really enjoy the idea that Meppa's amnesia might have been purposeful in order to bear more Water.

I do distinctly believe that Meppa is a character and plot device that will expand on the greater metaphysics and on Moenghus' doings in Earwa. Maybe as someone suggested Meppa is a remnant experiment of Moenghus', using the Dunyain Neuropuncture to create a better Cishaurim.

I'd hazard a guess, Skafra, that many of Bakker's readers are shaken by this latest novel. A Culling might be in effect, and this might affect speculation, far more than the lack thereof. I often find Bakker's work pretty bottomless deep.

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I think our wits should be turned towards the why of the 144,000. We know the significance, with Christian end-of-the-world stuff. But how would this function? I was under the impression that killing people all once just clogged the tubes leading the Outside. I wonder how reducing it to 144,000 functions? Like, all the planets the Inchoroi killed, the populations couldn't have been the same.

Planet A: 3,000,000 -> 144,000

Planet B: 3,000,000,000 -> 144,000

Wutteat's words seem to imply the above situation. Regardless of the number of souls killed, 144,000 has to be reached to seal shut the doors to the Outside. The No-God helps with this, since you don't have to worry about births leading to 144,001 at the last moment. It also explains why the Consult had to take the field, and not just wait shit out in Golgotterath. Else the population might've fallen below 144,000 as people aged (if 144,000 is the exact number they need.)

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Wutteat's words seem to imply the above situation. Regardless of the number of souls killed, 144,000 has to be reached to seal shut the doors to the Outside. The No-God helps with this, since you don't have to worry about births leading to 144,001 at the last moment. It also explains why the Consult had to take the field, and not just wait shit out in Golgotterath. Else the population might've fallen below 144,000 as people aged (if 144,000 is the exact number they need.)

What is still puzzling to me is that Wutteat seems to suggest that the Inchoroi have succeeded in the past at achieving 144,000 yet have still not achieved their goal. So what's the difference here? Is the No-God the difference? If so, how did the Inchies achieve their goals in the past planets? Weapons of light and biological warfare?

Was the School of Mangaecca instrumental in making the difference and helping come up with whatever the No-God is?

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The difference is, those past worlds weren't Bakkerworld. Bakkerworld is the Promised World, for whatever reason.

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I think the number 144'000 turns upon the amount of souls required for god to experience itself within the plane of 'maximal objectivity' - i.e. Earwa.

In as much as we only really 'know' or objectively experience (partially) ourselves through how we interact with others (note the feedback between subjective interpretations as a critical field providing a illusion of objectivity - seperate from actual objective reality).

Okay, I can't make the sense I was trying to inject into that previous sentence, so let me try and break it down further.

Earwa occupies the space of maximal objectivity. It is here that the God experiences itself through multiple souls, each providing interpretative context that reinforces the subjective realities of the other souls.

Earwa is where god has chosen to manifest itself within creation. Whatever it was exploring (perhaps simple identity and meaning) with nonmen is done, perhaps somekind of experiential dead end.

Now humans prevail and explore and structuralize the concepts/totems of the god's morality and ethics in the form of the various hundred gods - creating superstructures clustered 'around' Earwa in the outside.

Looking at how human identity and morality is dictated in a broad sense, we interpret these things through how others interpret our words and actions. Devoid of the interpretation of others, the hermit dresses in rags and develops whatever strange customs and habits he wants.

Therefore, to break the moral feedback loop between souled entities and the outside, the consult reduces the population within this plane of objectivity to the point where god can no longer effectively experience itself - 144,000 is that number.

(Or perhaps this is merely the point at which their soul interference broadcaster (i.e. the no-god) becomes effective.)

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I have a question.

It seems generally agreed here that Kellhus sacrificed the Army of the South when he might have saved them - to be honest, not sure where I sit with this.

Anyhow, if he intended that, he essentially decided to destroy the Mandate and the Volakati. Now the Nilnameshi School might have been expendable but almost the entire Mandate is dead. I'm just not sure the Swayali are worth more than the Mandate were.

Why would Kellhus have done that?

Just reflecting back on this, could it not be argued that Kellhus was both conditioning the useful and purging potentially troublesome elements of the army.

Saccares may have required constraints be placed upon his hubris, and he effectively excised the unbalanced head of the Volkanti; the Southern general (forget his name) seemed prone to bad desicions and his son (presumably heir to command) looks much more useful and now well seasoned.

Add to this the prime function of the mundane army as a sheild for the sorcerous army, Kellhus may have revised his logistical calculations based on the hard data of experience and decided that the Southern army was better as an example of the fruits of poor discipline/command than as a continuing concern.

Also this 'disaster' reinforces the severity of the ordeal's situation preceeding the 'unpalatable' order to nom nom sranc.

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Just reflecting back on this, could it not be argued that Kellhus was both conditioning the useful and purging potentially troublesome elements of the army.

That was my first thought as well.

Or Kel is culling down to 144,000 souls.... :P

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Theory: Kellhus built nukes, and planted them all over the world. As soon as the Great Ordeal hits 144,000 people, he's going to set off all the nukes!

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