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Triskele

White-Luck Warrior IV

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I think that it was seven SS in Iothiah, and he'd definitely killed a few of them before it was over.

And yeah, he gets attacked by a handful of Saik in TTT and the way the text reads to me he takes them all out fairly easily. I want to say it was four or so, but I am not certain if we were ever given the number. But I do remember something like "One by one he pulled them from the sky."

I think he also easily cuts through the Saik Grandmaster, whose bloods sprays over Conphas?

He is attacked by seven, I believe, Spires-of-rank in Iothiah and killed two of them. He was attacked by three Saik-of-rank plus the Saik grandmaster in TTT and kills them all. In fact, he exults in the battle, feeling no threat whatsoever until he realizes that the Chorae bowmen will be moving toward the front.

Perhaps, Kellhus couldn't have foreseen Carindusu's treachery but if Kellhus was intent on sacrificing the Army of the South, why send the Mandate at all?

I had thought that perhaps he wanted to draw the Consult out with the Army of the South - he didn't necessarily want to destroy the Army (though he was certainly willing enough to do so), but he thought that as it was quite vulnerable, given obvious tensions among its leadership, its tenuous position on the far flank, and its uncertain loyalty to Kellhus, the Consult would choose it to assault. The Mandate would then be there to destroy some of the Consult's massed strength, or even to protect the Vokalati. The whole thing may have been nothing more than a fact-finding experiment to see what tactics the Consult would use.

I think that Kellhus probably did not foresee the treachery of the Vokalati Grandmaster, and that threw a wrench into his plans. After all, the combined might of the Schoolmen was saving the day until they started to fight each other.

The Chorae is something else I'd wondered about. I don't think we can say though that the Consult has all the Chorae - after all, they don't control the Sranc directly at this point. If they did, then all the Sranc and Bashrag in the Mop and the other corners of the world would be attacking the Ordeal from behind. The millions of Sranc in front of the Ordeal is nothing more than a Hording of unprecedented size.

Further, we know that the random uncontrolled Sranc and Bashrag in the world hold at least some Chorae. How many Chorae did those in Cil-Aujis have? A dozen, a hundred? Either way, it's clear that the Consult don't hold 100% of the Ancient North's Chorae - though to be sure I would imagine they have more than the Ordeal does.

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Leaving the cults and Fanayal to fight over the flaccid remnants of the New Empire might be just as good as setting off nukes :devil:

New Crackpot. Mengedda may have been the intended site for the No-god's ascension. Defeating Anaxophas would have lowered the pop. to 144k, No-god has to be standing at the centre of heaps of souls crossing over to create Topos then bam through to the outside carrying his Seal of reality through in the opposite manner to the wight in the mountain. Thus Mimara's JE becomes all important.

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I think that Kellhus probably did not foresee the treachery of the Vokalati Grandmaster, and that threw a wrench into his plans.

That seems completely against everything we have been told about Kellhus so far. Without some agency protecting him, even the ainoni facemasks couldn't stop Kellhus knowing what he was going to have for breakfast next week.

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That seems completely against everything we have been told about Kellhus so far. Without some agency protecting him, even the ainoni facemasks couldn't stop Kellhus knowing what he was going to have for breakfast next week.

As far as it goes, that's true. As I recall, though, Kellhus had very little contact with the guy. And, even given Kelly's godlike powers of perception, I think it'd be tough to predict that the exact moment that he'd choose to attack Saccarees would be in the middle of a giant battle, condemning tens of thousands of his countrymen to death.

Just to play devil's advocate to myself (believe me, I'm in no way wedded to my theories at this point), Saccarees' comment about the Gnosis in the battle was a bit too perfect as a needle. Perhaps that was all part of Kellhus' plan as well - which would mean that the Mandate were there, at least in part, to bring the Vokalati to heel via the betrayal and subsequent destruction of its Grandmaster.

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How did Aporetic Quya make Chorae without salting anyway? Perhaps there's a way to make yourself immune to a Chorae - an anti-Chorae that points out the paradox of a magical paradox that undoes magic.

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It's Kellhus' business to know that stuff - it's only his motives we can easily question, going on past form.

When considering the Gnosis vs other sorcerers, remember that Akka was badass even for a Mandati. Should have been much higher up ranked by power but hated the politics.

eta @Skafra; that Q was directed at Bakker in the chorae thread and drew an idk? response, so yeh... gloves? using remote controlled muggles?

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The assumption here is that practioners of the Aporos = Quya, or at least are Quya in addition to being Aporetics. The metaphysic of Aporos isn't the same as Quya/Gnosis. I got the impression from the quotes From Scott on 3 seas earlier in the thread that the Aporos was as different to Quya/Gnosis as Quya/Gnosis were to Psukhe. So an Aporetic sorcerer who is not Quya may not bear the mark and may not be undone by chorae.

Also it wasn't just politics Akka hated... He hated that the quorum used & manipulated people. Akka is a humanist with some compassion and had moral and ethical qualms about lying to, misleading, or otherwise wronging people... Inrau, Proyas, etc.

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Aporos turns on the underlying meta-metaphysic of language.

I think all this magic stuff turns on similar principles and that 'shining' in the 3rd light is the only way to directly see one of the few. Other sorcerers can only recognize each other via the Mark.

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Looking through old Bakker posts on Three-Seas

1. Is it possible for unions between Sranc and Men to have offspring?

No. Though it is possible with Nonmen.

Hmm. Does he mean Men and Nonmen, or Sranc and Nonmen? Because if the latter, maybe that's how they make Ursranc. Unless he means the 2 known out of the thousands of Emwama concubine pregnancies Nonmen+Human hybrids = possible.

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Death comes swirling ever down on page 223.

I do wonder what the hell Kellhus is doing. The "Grand Ordeal is some kind of great sacrifice" seems likely.

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Could be.

Most instances of the Ur- prefix relate to Kuniuri. Knights of Tryse aka Knights of the Ur-throne. Sworn to protect the Anasurimbors apparently. Suspect the kinuric literal meaning of Ur- is equivilent to uber/over.

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I still think that Book 3 is going to have a Siege of Angband-feel to it. But that means there has to be an Ancalagon the Black, and THERE IS.

Skuthula the Black, a dragon, explicitly in the Appendix, to be alive.

But Ancalagon was killed by a giant floating ship. Dunno what the parallel here will be. Moreover, Ancalagon, and his flying kin, were a secret weapon of Morgoths, before him, all dragons were like Glaurang, creepy Fafnir-types.

Skuthula can't really be a secret weapon since he is an Ancalagon-type, all the Inchoroi's dragons are already.

Therefore, when the Consult unleashes their dragons from Golgotterath, they will have to be Upgraded Dragons, in order to parallel Melkor's unleashing of the winged fire wyrms.

Thus, I propose that the Consult has perfected the Cants and Technology involved in the Synthese construction, and have created Synthese-Dragons. The Mangaecca are now all dragons, and can perform magic.

And Shauriatus occupies Skuthula's body.

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What is still puzzling to me is that Wutteat seems to suggest that the Inchoroi have succeeded in the past at achieving 144,000 yet have still not achieved their goal. So what's the difference here? Is the No-God the difference? If so, how did the Inchies achieve their goals in the past planets? Weapons of light and biological warfare?

Was the School of Mangaecca instrumental in making the difference and helping come up with whatever the No-God is?

I think so. IIRC, it was something the Mangaecca offered them that gave the possibility to really undo their damnation. Before that, they were simply going from world to world, killing the population down to 144.000 "and howl that they were still damned". Which suggests that they're trying the same thing everywhere.

The Mangeacca of course have a vested interest in trying to undo their own damnation.

He is attacked by seven, I believe, Spires-of-rank in Iothiah and killed two of them. He was attacked by three Saik-of-rank plus the Saik grandmaster in TTT and kills them all. In fact, he exults in the battle, feeling no threat whatsoever until he realizes that the Chorae bowmen will be moving toward the front.

I thougt he first killed the Grandmaster (Cememketri), and then the pulls the four sorcerers from the sky one by one?

Hmm. Does he mean Men and Nonmen, or Sranc and Nonmen? Because if the latter, maybe that's how they make Ursranc. Unless he means the 2 known out of the thousands of Emwama concubine pregnancies Nonmen+Human hybrids = possible.

I'm assuming the latter.

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Ursranc seems to be obvious Uruk-Hai analogues to the Sranc's orcs, but I guess people already caught that :P

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Regarding Ur:

In Eärwa, Ur is probably a place; there is a directional ward employed by the Scarlet Spires called Ramparts of Ur. (More difficult and more powerful than the Portcullis.)

In ReälWorld Ur was a Sumerian city-state. It had a Zigurrat: Great Ziggurat of Ur @ Wikipedia. So I suggest that Ur is an ancient city in what today is Shigek.

(This does not mean that I think Ursranc or the Urthrone hail from Ur.)

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"Ur" is often used in fantasy in meaning super-powerful and/or ancient, for example "ur-lord" as a title of Thomas Covenant. I don't know what the ethymology is. It may indeed come from German, but I am not sure.

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It's used specifically in the Glossary when refering to trappings of the kinuric Anasurimbor High Kings, specificly at Tryse - capital of Kinuri.

Knights of Tryse entry remarks they are also called the Knights of the Urthrone and the Kinuri entry talks about the Urthrone, seat of the Anasurimbor dynasty.

Besides Ursranc I don't recall seeing any other usage except in these threads. I think that just refers to the fact that they are the smarter, leader types and the name makes sense in that it would be descended from kinuric.

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in answer to my own question that was riffing off the question of 'historical', 'narrative', '?' in terms of the scope of the book, I'm wondering if the third trilogy could be the reality/objective trilogy, stripped of narrative structures and also of historical frames, it attempts to tell the story through a lens we find uncomfortable because it abandons the traditional illusory mechanisms we've evolved for digesting stories. :-p

--

in more news on the selection confirmation bias front I was looking at some of the wikipedia entries on salt. I've always associated the salting of sorcerer's with Lot's wife (such a great tale), but forgot that Jesus described his followers as the salt of the earth, I think that dovetails nicely on a little blurred parallel between ancient hebrew and jesus and the tusk and kellhus.

But it's also interesting to look at salts from a chemical perspective. Salt is formed in one instance when an acid and a base neutralize one another. Perhaps a chorae simply opens a portal to the outside, and the contradictions in the sorcerer's presence outside and presence inside, when they come in contact with one another, neutralize each other, salting the sorcerer. The supposition would be that working magic, while it does not transform the corporeal form of the sorcerer stuck inside, it does transform the outside incorporeal form of the sorcerer. Note: I love the inherent contradictoryness of this terminology of being forced to associate corporeal with inside, when souls are so usually considered interior and bodies exterior. Non sorcerer's haven't had their souls changed by working magic, so they are still in balance, and there is nothing to neutralize when encountering a chorae.

Chemically, we get an interesting possibility for Cishaurim as well, it could still be a similar reaction, rather than being an acid base reaction, it could be a metal/nonmetal or a metal/base reaction. if the reaction (not necessarily a salt formation, we do not have to stay trapped in that frame) is more explosive we explain the burning, rather than the salting effect.

Another possibility is that Cish burn because they have water, and so the contradiction the chorae imposes is the opposite that of water--fire. If this is true, it would suggest that the contradiction the chorae imposes, salting, is the opposite of sorcery. Since sorcery is holding two things apart with an utteral and an inutteral, and salting is the neutralizing of two contradicting things, this seems to fit somewhat.

or it could be that cish burn because a chorae opens them up to the full fire of the God's passion, and they are literally consumed by his flames.

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