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Triskele

White-Luck Warrior IV

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I think the Cish burn for the God reason. Sorcerers salting because of the Acid/Base Reality/Outside reason is cool. But I think the burning is more akin to an unstable molecule full of nitro-groups. It's a molecule that just ain't natural, shit ain't gonna last. The Cishaurim are mortal, but speak with the God's own passion, it's unstable, Chorae appears, fire!

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I think in real-world English, the "ur-" prefix tends to mean "original" or "earlier version of." "Proto-" would be a similar prefix. The prototype of "x" would be the ur-"x." (This doesn't preclude other meanings, of course).

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It's Kellhus' business to know that stuff - it's only his motives we can easily question, going on past form.

Disagree completely. In PoN we saw Kel make mistakes. We've seen other Dunyain (Moe) make mistakes. Kel is not infallible and he is not omniscient. And Bakker in an interview said that one of the themes of AE is watching how the viral meme that is the TTT falls apart once it gains control of the system. It's a mistake, IMO, to think that everything is going according to Kel's plan.

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Disagree completely. In PoN we saw Kel make mistakes. We've seen other Dunyain (Moe) make mistakes. Kel is not infallible and he is not omniscient. And Bakker in an interview said that one of the themes of AE is watching how the viral meme that is the TTT falls apart once it gains control of the system. It's a mistake, IMO, to think that everything is going according to Kel's plan.

I would agree, though I think it's fun to speculate about which things Kellhus does know/control and which he does not. There is no way that Kellhus literally knows all or controls all...yet.

For example...if Kellhus wants Akka and Mimara to get somewhere whether that's Sauglish or Ishual, would it really be a good idea to have an erratic with them? We do finally see how erratic and erratic can be at the end of WLW.

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But Ancalagon was killed by a giant floating ship. Dunno what the parallel here will be.

A non-man flying chariot.

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A non-man flying chariot.

Too small.

Also, hilarious idea:

Serwa will become one of Nin'cijiras(spelling?)' concubines. She'll start looking pregnant (Because of Moe), the Nonmen of Ishterebinth will celebrate, until we get repeat of Cil'Aujus.

In fact, it's possible that Kellhus sent Serwa to Ishterebinth entirely because he foresaw that she might be able to bear Nonmen children. But because he doesn't actually spend that much time with his children, he didn't notice that Moe and Serwa were doin' it.

I really want to know if Ishterebinth still has Emwama slaves. It stands to reason that they must. I don't really imagine any Nonmen wanting to labor in the fields of Injor-Niyas to raise crops.

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Disagree completely. In PoN we saw Kel make mistakes. We've seen other Dunyain (Moe) make mistakes. Kel is not infallible and he is not omniscient. And Bakker in an interview said that one of the themes of AE is watching how the viral meme that is the TTT falls apart once it gains control of the system. It's a mistake, IMO, to think that everything is going according to Kel's plan.

Not what I was talking about.

Kellhus operates in the same manner as ever.

99.99999999999999999% of the time he is right about people's motivations and causal chains.

He knew exactly what to expect from the southern army because he is directly concerned and involved with it.

It's not the same as trying to master a civilization from within or maintaining one in absentia in the face of divine opposition.

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I finished the book yesterday and it was an entertaining read.

Something that came to my mind when reading the last chapter of the Ordeal storyline:

Deep-fried Sranc penis is best served with creamy black seed sauce.

-ANONYMOUS SCHOOLMAN, TASTE CAME SWIRLING DOWN: A GUIDE TO THE CUSINE OF THE ANCIENT NORTH

;)

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So I finished it.

That confrontation with the Wracu did indeed have major Smaug vibes. Good sequence.

What was going to happen with Uncle Holy was pretty predictable, I felt the entire imperial sequnece to be the weakest part, in general.

I think I'm getting jaded, a lot of the plot twists didn't feel very surprising. (I did even wonder why they hadn't started eating the sranc...)

Overall it felt very much like a middle-book: Hopefully there's payoff in the next one.

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Also, hilarious idea:

Serwa will become one of Nin'cijiras(spelling?)' concubines. She'll start looking pregnant (Because of Moe), the Nonmen of Ishterebinth will celebrate, until we get repeat of Cil'Aujus.

This is one of the best crackpot theories ever.

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More Middle-Earth possibilities:

Moe and Serwa as Turin and his sister. Not sure how this would play out, but I could see it happening. Either Moe or Serwa being convinced that Kellhus isn't a real prophet/they are damned. Followed up by suicide, the slaying of the dragon/whatever, and the suicide of the other.

Or we could have a Beren and Luthien story. But, I suppose that has been done. Beren is Nau-Cayuti, Luthien is Aulisi, and the Silmaril is The Heron-Spear. Of course, that raises the question - who is Elrond? Or, who is Aragon? But that kinda fails since both Nau-Cayuti and Aulisi were human. Our Half-elves are the Anasurimbor and the descendants, if there are any, of that earlier Non-woman whose father was an Emwama-slave, and had his tongue removed so he couldn't speak of what he saw in Golgotterath. I'd wager Esmenet and Mimara are in fact descendants of that Non-woman, whatever her name was.

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So, rereading...I don't get the Niom. Why is Sorweel a surety against deception?

I saw someone else bring this up, but when Maitha dies his last words are "You must tell my broth--!"

What do you think he was about to say? That Moe's still alive? Or that Moe's pieces on the board, like Meppa, are still running through the algorithm that is TTT?

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I suppose the Nonmen could empower the enemy to defeat the human-king with whom they formed the pact.

I dunno whether there's anyway to tell what Maithanet was gonna say. Maithanet already said he had come to believe Kellhus doesn't care what happens to the Empire, so telling Kellhus anything about the Empire would be moot. Maithanet would probably more interested in things that could affect the Ordeal, or threaten humanity in some fashion. Maybe Kelmomas?

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So, rereading...I don't get the Niom. Why is Sorweel a surety against deception?

I don't think it's certain. He has major hangups with both Kellhus and Yatwer. He seems conflicted.

I saw someone else bring this up, but when Maitha dies his last words are "You must tell my broth--!"

It's a tribute to "Brienne's word" from GRRM.

I have no idea what it is though. Something to do with Kelmomas is the safest guess, but I can't tell that it's anything that we're supposed to even guess at. But crackpottery is welcome.

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I don't think it's certain. He has major hangups with both Kellhus and Yatwer. He seems conflicted.

It's a tribute to "Brienne's word" from GRRM.

I have no idea what it is though. Something to do with Kelmomas is the safest guess, but I can't tell that it's anything that we're supposed to even guess at. But crackpottery is welcome.

But Sorweel counts as an enemy in terms of Niom. So is it like Wutteat says, that if Kellhus deceives them they'll empower Sorweel to fight Kellhus? As in, just in case Kellhus doesn't give a crap about his daughter and son he'll still honor the agreement with them because otherwise they will empower one of his enemies?

I guess I'm asking how Niom works in general. Thanks!

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New forum subgame.

Adding the unspoken bit to Maitha's last words.

"You must tell my broth--"

...some to get you started.

"--er, Dad liked me best."

"--er, he's still a dick."

"-- it's just soup. Simmer down."

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On a more serious note, I wonder if he just wants him to tell Kellhus about the danger of the White-Luck?

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On a more serious note, I wonder if he just wants him to tell Kellhus about the danger of the White-Luck?

yeah, that makes sense actually.

regarding the Niom, Proyas mentions how little he sees the Nonmen contributing to the Ordeal. Is he just unaware of the power of the Quya mages, or does the inclusion of the Nonmen mean something to Kellhus beyond their military/magical prowess?

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Proyas is right, I think. The number of Quya that remain Intact must be very, very low. A nonman begins to show Erraticism at 400 years of age. It's been >10,000 years. Even those Nonmen of the last generation are still >9,600 years old. You can't trust Erratic Quya. The Consult is way too tempting to those who would suffer for memory.

Moreover, the mundane Nonman, those not of the few, can't contribute enough to be useful, there's simply not enough of them that are not Erratic. Kellhus has some ulterior motive in sending Serwa and Moe and Sorweel to Ishterebinth. He has to keep those Quya out of the Consult's hands, but the risk in incorporating them into the Ordeal is too great, their mental degradation has gone too far.

Unless, of course, the Consult has given them the technology to repair their minds. Aurang, Aurax, and the Mangaecca are probably not Erratics, yet they've lived thousands of years. The Consult knows how to prevent brain degradation.

Of course, it raises the question the mechanism of Erraticism. Does it occur because of physical deterioration (Alzheimer's style) or does it happen because of Interference - simply, the brain hasn't reached its theoretic capacity, but the accumulation of memories has become so large, that the brain has problems parsing and indexing them, to the point where memory retrieval is damaged (the memory system consisting of Encoding (Gaining a Memory) -> Storage ( Keeping it) -> Retrieval (Remembering it)) If the Nonman failure is at Retrieval, it's because of Interference.

Not sure how you cure Interference, since it's not a physical problem so much as a psychological one.

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well Mek is DEFINITELY erratic, yet hasn't been cured, so I would say the Consult can't fix it. I always saw it as a physical limit, that you can't store that much memory.

iirc, I thought it was that nonman lifespan was naturally around 400 years, and that they couldn't store much more than four times that before beginning to turn erratic.

The war of extermination against Golgotteranth waged for 500 years after the womb plague, then the gates were broken and 4100 years have passed since then. So it's been at minimum about 4600 years, where are you getting your 9000/10,000 years old number?

flipping through TDTCB I noticed something odd about the dates, is there a known problem with the years?

prologue starts at 4109, chapter one-six, 4110, chapter six ends at autumn of 4110, chapter seven (iirc) begins with late autumn 4111, and the chapter starts out with an omniscient POV and the timeframe that it has been a year and a half since Maithanet called the holy war at the Hagerna (in early spring 4110, so that at least agrees). the 4111 continues for a few chapters, and then it reverts back to 4110. Very odd to go back and forth in time like this.

I'm amazed, on a reread, how many POVs there are, Kell, Leweth, Akka, Geshrunni, Nautzera, Inrau, Proyas, Esmenet, Xerius, Cnaiur, Conphas, Yursalka and that's just in the first half of the book.

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