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Triskele

White-Luck Warrior IV

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also, I think Maitha wants to warn Kellhus about the White Luck. Although it's possible it's about lil Kel.

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well Mek is DEFINITELY erratic, yet hasn't been cured, so I would say the Consult can't fix it. I always saw it as a physical limit, that you can't store that much memory.

iirc, I thought it was that nonman lifespan was naturally around 400 years, and that they couldn't store much more than four times that before beginning to turn erratic.

So Shauritas, Aurang et al would be erratic too, to some extent.

Pretty sure it's actual brain rot.

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New forum subgame.

Adding the unspoken bit to Maitha's last words.

"You must tell my broth--"

"--er, Dad liked me best."

WINNING

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The war of extermination against Golgotteranth waged for 500 years after the womb plague, then the gates were broken and 4100 years have passed since then. So it's been at minimum about 4600 years, where are you getting your 9000/10,000 years old number?

I remember from somewhere that the time between Nil'Giccas putting the glamor on Min Uroikas, and the Breaking of the Gates was really, really, really long.

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But Sorweel counts as an enemy in terms of Niom. So is it like Wutteat says, that if Kellhus deceives them they'll empower Sorweel to fight Kellhus? As in, just in case Kellhus doesn't give a crap about his daughter and son he'll still honor the agreement with them because otherwise they will empower one of his enemies?

I guess I'm asking how Niom works in general. Thanks!

I figure it worked like this: The Son and daughter are hostages, the enemy is there as a ource of information (presumably he'd reveal the secrets of his enemies, if neccessary)

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Proyas is right, I think. The number of Quya that remain Intact must be very, very low. A nonman begins to show Erraticism at 400 years of age. It's been >10,000 years. Even those Nonmen of the last generation are still >9,600 years old. You can't trust Erratic Quya. The Consult is way too tempting to those who would suffer for memory.

This, I think is a good point and sufficiently obvious that we have to uncover Kellhus' deeper motive. Either he sees a hope of turning Ishterbinth to his side again (and I'm very sceptical of this) or the planned holocaust of souls he is planning at Min-Uroikis requires nonmen souls for some reason.

If Kellhus does intend to reunite the broken pieces of God or become the God of Gods himself, there may be something about nonmen souls or beliefs that make them qualitatively different from human souls. In particular because nonmen worship the space between gods, and beliefs have objective power in Earwa they may be necessary for the reassembly of God.

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1. Board member Mjolnir shares some good thoughts about White Luck Warrior in the June 2011 Reading thread .

2. The Niom is probably pretty ritualised, so the original motivations may not make too much sense anymore. However, here are at least two reasons I can think of for including an enemy: First, the two other prisoners cannot plot treachery. (At least it's a lot more difficult, with the enemy prisoner hanging around all the time.) Second, there's a better chance that the other prisoners are how they claim to be. In this particular example, Kellhus couldn't just have passed off, say, Iyokus and some random slave girl as his children without Sorweel telling.

So the first two prisoners safeguard against betrayal in battle (in the sense of the mannish ally suddenly turning against the Nonmen in battle). The third prisoner safeguards against deception in the prisoner exchange.

Of course, "safeguard" is too strong a word. After all, the enemy prisoner could be a decoy as well. But it stands to reason that the (now highly symbolic) tradition comes from a period where enemy prisoners were easy to identify, but children weren't.

As an aside, Sorweel knows that Moënghus isn't Kellhus's son.

[ETA: Galactus just said this 15 minutes ago.]

3. I, too, was puzzled by Kellhus's pronouncement to eat Sranc. I thought they'd nibbled away at the critters for a quite a while by now. I do understand that human psychology makes cannibalism a kind of last resort. But Sranc? It's like eating dog, I guess. Initially revolting, but only until you're really hungry.

But it is clear now that the Srancdiet is supposed to be a major turn of events. I just reread all the Great Ordeal chapters, and when Kellhus travels to meet the army of the South the first time, the first question he asks is about provisions, not strategy. I assume that Kellhus has waited for this for quite a while. But I still don't quite see the significance, unless Scranc really have some quirry-like quality to them.

Question: do we know if Sranc eat each other?

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Question: do we know if Sranc eat each other?

Pretty sure it's mentioned once or twice that they do.

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... But I still don't quite see the significance, unless Scranc really have some quirry-like quality to them.

Question: do we know if Sranc eat each other?

Isn't the significance that it blurs the essential difference between Sranc and humans? Sranc eat humans and now humans eat Sranc. It seems like a surrender of the last dignity of difference between the two races.

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Isn't the significance that it blurs the essential difference between Sranc and humans?

I don’t see that. Humans eat lions, lions eat humans.

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Isn't the significance that it blurs the essential difference between Sranc and humans? Sranc eat humans and now humans eat Sranc. It seems like a surrender of the last dignity of difference between the two races.

Well there is still the rape part. So the humans have a bit of dignity left!

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Would that still work for humans eat chimps, chimps eat humans?

I still don’t understand your reasoning. We normally eat animals that are below us. Chickens, cows, pigs, even rats and dogs. How does eating Sranc put us on the same level as them? If anything, we would distance ourselves from them by eating them, make it more clear that they are just beasts.

And, of course, the Sranc aren’t defined by eating us. That’s not why mothers in Sauglish strangle their own children while dread Mog-Pharau walks before the gates.

--

I finally found out what the Sranc remind me of: the Skaven of the Warhammer world.

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I finally found out what the Sranc remind me of: the Skaven of the Warhammer world.

Really? I thought like the Morlocks, only white, bald and with Brad and Ange faces.

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Would that still work for humans eat chimps, chimps eat humans?

OK, now the discussion is going to places where it just doesn't need to go.

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1. Board member Mjolnir shares some good thoughts about White Luck Warrior in the June 2011 Reading thread .

2. The Niom is probably pretty ritualised....

[ETA: Galactus just said this 15 minutes ago.]

3. I, too, was puzzled by Kellhus's pronouncement to eat Sranc. I thought they'd nibbled away at the critters for a quite a while by now. I do understand that human psychology makes cannibalism a kind of last resort. But Sranc? It's like eating dog, I guess. Initially revolting, but only until you're really hungry.

But it is clear now that the Srancdiet is supposed to be a major turn of events. I just reread all the Great Ordeal chapters, and when Kellhus travels to meet the army of the South the first time, the first question he asks is about provisions, not strategy. I assume that Kellhus has waited for this for quite a while. But I still don't quite see the significance, unless Scranc really have some quirry-like quality to them.

Question: do we know if Sranc eat each other?

What you and Galactus say definitely makes sense - thanks!

I think eating Sranc will definitely change the Ordeal. Whether it results in insanity or confers the advantage of the Quirri I'm not sure...though if Kellhus had heard of Quirri (likely since Akka had and Kellhus has more resources and is smarter) then I suspect he tested eating Sranc out on some lackeys before the Ordeal got underway.

Seeing as the larger purpose of the army of is to get the Schools to Golgotterath, I suspect the Quya mages will play a vital role due to the purity of their meaning. Also, this means that the Anagogic schools are useless unless they possess the Daimos - if Akka can fight the Grand Master of the greatest Anagogic School (likely kill him with ease one-on-one based on TDTCB) with ease, then a Nonman mage like Cleric could likely kill many, many more.

(this is why Kellhus was willing to sacrifice a whole anagogic school to his plans)

It seems to me that whatever Kellhus has planned depends on the Gnosis, and the purity of meaning. Akka mentions the importance of witches in TJE, and it does make one wonder about the advantage gained from having women sorcerers - like making two halves whole with the Swayali and the Mandate given that a god has to stride genders.

Perhaps having so many angles, so many perceptions, can equal the recollection of the Psukhe. With Kellhus tying these mages in concert via some from of Metagnosis, in conjunction with the Daimos, I believe he could pull off something crazy like ripping open Golgotterath toward the Outside and let Hell claim it...

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The most crackpottish thought I've ever had (meaning I think there is virtually no chance whatsoever that it's going to happen) is that Kellhus could figure out some Metagnosticdaimos that could summon the God itself into the world of Eerwa while the No-God walks making it no longer blind to the No-God and allowing it to destroy Mog forever.*

*Please pay no attention to the posts of the clearly mad and primitive creature you see above

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Perhaps having so many angles, so many perceptions, can equal the recollection of the Psukhe. With Kellhus tying these mages in concert via some from of Metagnosis, in conjunction with the Daimos, I believe he could pull off something crazy like ripping open Golgotterath toward the Outside and let Hell claim it...

I'd imagine if Cil'Aujus is a topos just because of some millenia of suffering slaves, and if Wutteat is sustained by hell on the inside simply because he's so evil for so long, that Golgotterath is a topos to a degree that it pretty much already is hell.

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I finally found out what the Sranc remind me of: the Skaven of the Warhammer world.

In some ways I guess, but not really. The Skaven are a culture in a way the sranc aren't, for starters, and they also have much more of the infection/infiltration angle. They have the biotech horror thing in common, but not much else.

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Lol, for whatever reason it seems like Bakker's interview almost had an aporic effect on speculation. Though, it has almost inspired me to go downright academic on the Second Apocalypse next time I re-read. Perhaps, an ongoing project.

I'm still forming a statement on WLW's Layer of Revelation but here's two foods for thought.

- All the Gods who can, will have some sort of stake in the game in TUC. Yatwer has busted some Inrithi metaphysical hold on belief in Earwa and the Cults are coming back hard. Expect to see the culmination and revelation of "the stake of metaphysical Agencies" arc in the Second Apocalypse.

- The Nonmen created the Gods through the forming of concrete abstract conceptions. Think Platonic forms and the historical evolution of more and more complex abstract conceptual realizations, though, in Bakkerworld the Outside is real and thoughts feed.

What does this mean for Kellhus?

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