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Triskele

White-Luck Warrior IV

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regarding chorae and salting vs burning. I think we're just not understanding the full effect because we only have flattening words to describe what is a complex reaction to the observer. When Geshrunni thinks about the time he saw a sorcerer touched by a chorae, he remembers it as a furious incandesence. Clearly Akka and Cleric salt, as well. Perhaps the salting is an external side effect of the total reaction that neutralizes the corporeal body of the sorcerer. That's why you can salt from a near miss but only die from a direct hit.

It is very interesting to reread the TDTCB prologue in light of WLW, Kellhus has some interesting thoughts about the Gods when he is with Leweth.

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Cursed double post

Another interesting thing, All the Cults bent the knee to Maithanet immediately.

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It is very interesting to reread the TDTCB prologue in light of WLW, Kellhus has some interesting thoughts about the Gods when he is with Leweth.

I remain curious to what extent the other gods will become involved. From my reading, Yatwer is the only one that we know for certain is getting involved. It's possible that the Whore of Fate is involved, and it's possible that Gilgaol, the God of War is involved, but I don't think we know for certain. What about Husyelt, the God of the Hunt (I think this is who Leweth prayed to). There's Onkis. There's the storm or sky God (forget which it is). There's the God of disease (which certainly may have become involved, but I don't think it's certain.

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I want to know WHY Yatwer opposes Kellhus. I don't get it. He passed laws that made life better for slaves, caste-menials, and women. Just because the Cult considers him a tyrant? Why does it consider him a Tyrant? Why didn't they unleash the White-Luck on the Aspect-Emperors of Cenei, as their Inrithism clearly marginalized the cults to a degree. Why didn't they use it against Fane? What makes Kellhus so special?

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Yatwer opposes bettering slaves because slaves that are bettered stop being as pro Yatwer or move to the god favored by the next caste up the ladder. She sees those laws as a threat to a status quo that is very good for her.

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Yeah, that seems right. She is one of the "Compensatory Gods" (not to be confused with the Todds). She rewards those who worship her, or at least she allegedly does. So anything that would lead to less people worshiping her would likely be perceived as a threat.

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it also works with real world critiques of religion as the opiate of the masses, as a tool used to actively keep the citizenry down, keep them in their place, oppress them, etc etc. Yatwer explicitly does not want what is best for her worshippers, she wants what is best for her, and what is best for her is a lot of human suffering in the form of lots of slaves and caste menials.

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A couple of things

First, on the Psukhe vs Anagosis... From WLW p. 357, Proyas reminiscing about the battle of Shimeh:

... he had watched his Holy Aspect-Emperor battle the last of the heathen Cishaurim. There had been five of them, Primaries, mightier, despite the crudity of their art, than the most accomplished Schoolmen.... their eyes gouged so they might see the Water-that-was-Light...

So a Psukharic primary is stronger than an Anagogic sorceror.

Next, from tDtCB, from Kellhus' time with Leweth (thanks for suggesting a re-re-read, lockesnow):

Think, Leweth. If we’re nothing more than our

thoughts and passions, and if our thoughts and passions are nothing more than

movements of our souls, then we are nothing more than those who move us. Who

you once were, Leweth, ceased to exist the moment your wife died.”

“And that’s why I fled!” Leweth cried, his eyes both beseeching and

provoked. “I couldn’t bear it. I fled to forget!”

Flare in his pulse rate. Hesitation in the flex of delicate muscles about his

eyes. He knows this is a lie.

“No, Leweth. You fled to remember. You fled to conserve all the ways your

wife had moved you, to shield the ache of her loss from the momentum of others.

You fled to make a bulwark of your misery.”

“And what if I do? The world is an outrage, Kellhus. An outrage!”

This little paragraph screamed parallel with Cleric, to me. His bit in WLW about how before the Nonman king died, he (Cleric) did not exist... He did essentially flee Ishoriol to remember and shield the ache of his losses from the momentum of other Nonmen... And the bit about 'an outrage' was a duplicate of his rant at the gates of Cil Aujas:

"Where are you?" he bellowed—so violently even the hardest of the Skin Eaters started. "The Gate unguarded? And with the world grown so dark?

This is an outrage! Outrage!"

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I want to know WHY Yatwer opposes Kellhus. I don't get it. He passed laws that made life better for slaves, caste-menials, and women. Just because the Cult considers him a tyrant? Why does it consider him a Tyrant? Why didn't they unleash the White-Luck on the Aspect-Emperors of Cenei, as their Inrithism clearly marginalized the cults to a degree. Why didn't they use it against Fane? What makes Kellhus so special?

That is one of the things I'm curious about. Why didn't the gods have a problem with Fane? Or even Inri Sejenus? Why didn't Conphas just send for a narindar after he was Censured?

I am still not sure what gods really are. I don't think a god on Earwa is anywhere close to a god in Erikson's world, or one the American Gods from Gaiman. I am more convinced that gods are their practitioners (those who act out or suffer the domain of the god) across past-present-future. So the god of disease is a conscious manifestation of disease and those who suffer disease and his worshipers across history all at once. Same with the other gods. The Four Horned Brother then represents a kind of inversion, as the god opposed to the other gods, a trickster manifestation perhaps representing opposition to faith, or maybe faith in doubt.

I think the Nonmen, who view time and worship as more holistic, seeing the holy a pantheistic force rather than separate forces personified in the Outside, are thus "damned" because they have no one casting nets for them in the Outside. Of course, all this net casting and soul mansion stuff is from a human perspective, the one Nonman we see damned was damned for keeping slaves.

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Think Platonic forms and the historical evolution of more and more complex abstract conceptual realizations, though

I don't really think that's true. Really complex abstractions have been with us for a long time(check out some indian philosophy) western philosophy hasn't so much invented any new abstract concepts as whittled back the ones that aren't as useful.

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iirc, I thought it was that nonman lifespan was naturally around 400 years, and that they couldn't store much more than four times that before beginning to turn erratic.

I remember this, too.

The war of extermination against Golgotteranth waged for 500 years after the womb plague, then the gates were broken and 4100 years have passed since then. So it's been at minimum about 4600 years, where are you getting your 9000/10,000 years old number?

From WLW, p. 359:

All in the name of striking an alliance with a ten-thousand-year-old king.

So 10,000 years old it is.

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I don't really think that's true. Really complex abstractions have been with us for a long time(check out some indian philosophy) western philosophy hasn't so much invented any new abstract concepts as whittled back the ones that aren't as useful.

I don't think I implied anything contradictory here.

For the most part, there is a hierarchy of psychological development over the course of history, which translates into social systems, emergent realizations happening in zeitgeists. That doesn't suggest that certain conceptual statements aren't thought or articulated outside of a certain social capacity, just that they are more rare because of it. And usually, the majority of society, wherever they are psychologically, kill those enlightened people.

I didn't suggest at all that we are the "most enlightened people" in modern day history. Personally, I think that psychosocial evolution has pretty much regressed since the Axial Age.

The historical mechanism and the intertwined concept was all I wanted to suggest.

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A couple of things

First, on the Psukhe vs Anagosis... From WLW p. 357, Proyas reminiscing about the battle of Shimeh:

So a Psukharic primary is stronger than an Anagogic sorceror.

That passage that you posted was the one I was touching on in a former thread. Is that something that we can take to the bank or is it just what Proyas assumes because it looks like the Cishaurim have won the battle against the SS before Kellhus arrives? I think the greatest Cish are stronger than the top Anagogis overall. I think the passage in TTT that gives it away is when it says that the SS actually had no real inkling of the power on the Incandati. Then somewhere in the TTT Appendix it says (in parenthesis) that the Psukhe is still not as strong as the Anagogis according to the SS (but the way it is written strongly suggests that they could be wrong about this, at least from my reading of it).

This is part of why I think Meppa could be a major chess piece on the chess board. A nuclear user of the Psyche in a realm nearly vacant of sorcerers and Chorae.

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Well there is still the rape part. So the humans have a bit of dignity left!

The sranc are also very beautiful. I give it just a little matter of time once the qirri really begins to take hold.

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after filling the pits of Min-Uroikas with innmerable corpses, they realized the most catastrophic of the Inchoroi's untold depravities:Mog-Pharau, the No-God

Looking through the What Came Before, I found this line. I think this + the Nau-Cayuti sequence implies that the No-God is somehow created from dead people. We know soul-capturing magic exists - the Waathi doll Akka uses, the gate of the Coffers, etc. Also, the Consult Synthese seems similar - the Synthese was probably developed as an outgrowth of the soul-capturing sorcery already known by the Gnostic schools. The No-God may be one step further on the Synthese. The Inchoroi could never create the No-God because they didn't understand Sorcery. And by the time they did, they no longer had time to research it. I think the soul-capturing sorcerous abilities were the missing-link in the creation of the No-God.

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Looking through the What Came Before, I found this line. I think this + the Nau-Cayuti sequence implies that the No-God is somehow created from dead people. We know soul-capturing magic exists - the Waathi doll Akka uses, the gate of the Coffers, etc. Also, the Consult Synthese seems similar - the Synthese was probably developed as an outgrowth of the soul-capturing sorcery already known by the Gnostic schools. The No-God may be one step further on the Synthese. The Inchoroi could never create the No-God because they didn't understand Sorcery. And by the time they did, they no longer had time to research it. I think the soul-capturing sorcerous abilities were the missing-link in the creation of the No-God.

Or maybe the Inchoroi had the ability (through the Tekne) to create the physical manifestation of the No-God, but no way to power it. Kind of like creating an insanely powerful tank, but having no one to drive it. So the Mangecca provided them with a sorcerous power source: souls. Once the batteries were fully charged, they turned it on and unleashed it.

This might also explain all of the "WHO AM I" "WHAT DO YOU SEE" madness we hear from the No-God. We have seen what happens when too many memories are packed into the head of a nonman - they become Erratics. So might not the same happen when you pack so many souls into a Tekne-tank? Like forcing hundreds of thousands of souls into one consciousness. It is "one mind", but it cannot comprehend itself.

So when the No-God was initially destroyed, the Consult retreated to Golgotterath. Why haven't they simply built and unleashed another one? Because they had no souls to power it. Maybe the soul-catching sorcery has some range limitations, and all that exists that far north are soulless Sranc. So the Consult could (and probably do) have No-God 2.0 built and ready to go, in the event someone would be so stupid as to lead hundreds of thousands of souls north into the range of the soul catchers.

OR...the Consult, knowing that they needed someone to lead that many souls north, sent its agents to create a race of super-humans (i.e.Dunyain) in the hopes that one could eventually put a big enough yoke around the world to cause this northward march to happen. Which might mean that the Consult's master plan was always to cause the world to make war upon it. In other words, they're playing a far deeper game than anyone realizes. For example, the skin spies weren't place in order to spy and manipulate, but to cause fear and apprehension about the Consult's ability to spy and manipulate. Once uncovered (by the Dunyain - isn't that a coincidence) they could be used to fuel the fear of the Second Apocalypse. So in an ironic twist, the Second Apocalypse would essentially cause itself - the Great Ordeal to destroy Golgotterath would in fact make it all-powerful. So in all of this the Mandate, thinking they were guarding against the Second Apocalypse by trying to make sure people remembered the Apocalypse, were actually working to the benefit of the Consult by keeping their memory alive for thousands of years.

Wow, that theory kind of took on a life of it's own. Anyone more well-versed in the story care to shoot some holes in it? :)

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Wow, that theory kind of took on a life of it's own. Anyone more well-versed in the story care to shoot some holes in it? :)

The part where the Consult needs a mass number of souls at Golgotterath is possible, and makes sense, but they could and likely have been collecting humans for some time. Given the slave trade, it should be possible for them to gather up the warm bodies they need without too much notice.

Also, we have POVs from the Consult where they are amazed/frightened by the Dunyain and thus seek them out. Now, once they found them and explained who they were, they might end up with the Dunyain on their side...which might be why Kellhus teleported in and slaughtered his people.

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The part where the Consult needs a mass number of souls at Golgotterath is possible, and makes sense, but they could and likely have been collecting humans for some time. Given the slave trade, it should be possible for them to gather up the warm bodies they need without too much notice.

Unless the souls have a shelf-life of some sort. Maybe the sorcery simply simply prevents migration to the after-life for a time, rather than working as a permanent anchor. Or maybe the souls themselves degrade in quality over time, making them unusable. So it has to be a mass amount of souls in a relatively short period, rather than collecting them one-by-one over millennia. If I recall correctly, when the first No-God was created, the Consult and men were in an active state of war in fairly close proximity to Golgotterath (at least, north of Tryse), which could provide the necessary souls.

Also, we have POVs from the Consult where they are amazed/frightened by the Dunyain and thus seek them out. Now, once they found them and explained who they were, they might end up with the Dunyain on their side...which might be why Kellhus teleported in and slaughtered his people.

Yep, that's exactly right. They don't know who the Dunyain are, so the Dunyain can't be their creation as I suggested. Perhaps they were so amazed at the Dunyain's ability to control people that they were seeking them out, not out of fear, but in order to convince them to make war.

Because, let's face it. What are the Consult anyway? A & A, a few Mangecca and Meketeritrig, hanging out in the basement of Min-Uroikas, watching the same old Scranc porn over and over for thousands of years? Other than their ability to manipulate the existing Scranc and Bashrag, and maybe a few nonmen Erratic allies, I am starting to think that they are largely impotent. Else why not yoke the Scranc, employ the Scelvendi, and march south to war a long time ago? And if they are impotent and not really much of a threat, why instigate war by placing skin-spies all over the world? I think they needed the war to come to them because they simply lacked the ability to take the war to the rest of the world.

And maybe more importantly, if they could create the No-God before, why haven't they done it again? And if they haven't been able to do it for millennia, why would anyone fear that maybe tomorrow they will find a way to do it?

If true, maybe Akka is the one to decipher all of this through all of his extra dreams. He has already seen what could be pieces of it - the slow death march inside Golgotterath.

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