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Triskele

White-Luck Warrior IV

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My last speculation buried, I'll add a couple things to your theory, Crow's Eye. Actually, that's untrue because as much as I like it, I seek to detract from it.

The Consult labored for roughly a thousand years to bring about the advent of the No-God. Mekeritrig was probably in better condition during the first Apocalypse then during current events given that his Erraticism has progressed almost three thousand years since introducing the Mangaecca to the Inchoroi.

The Consult do nothing this entire time but work to achieve the No-God, using the Tekne & Sorcery (likely a combination of Aporos and Gnostic). Whether or not this culminates with the captives of the random warring around Kuniuri, we don't have any explicit proof, though, perhaps this is where Achamian's Dreams are leading us.

The No-God is destroyed, the Indigo Plague happens, though the Mandate dispute that this is caused by the No-God's ashes as "the body" of the No-God was recovered by the Consult and interned at Golgotterath. Just stating a fact, I'm not sure what this means.

Then the Mandate and Mangaecca continued to openly skirmish with each other in Atrithau (albeit without sorcery, which always interested me), the Mandate's only proof (which wasn't proof in the Three-Seas, apparently) that the Consult still existed until three hundred years ago when they invented a new weapon of the Old Science, or Tekne, the skin-spies.

I guess then, the mechanism that I, and the books, seem to highlight is that the Mangaecca and the Consult relied heavily on Aurax's diminishing understanding of the Ark and the Tekne during the First Apocalypse and then Aurax forgot and the Consult, together, set out to rediscover the understanding over two thousand years.

However, the idea that Kellhus might have understood the Consult's need and provided them with the Ordeal might be noteworthy. And that Achamian figures out that Kellhus is going to betray the Ordeal and has to convince the Nonmen to save Men from their own tyrant.

But that's just too simple. I have a feeling that when I finally read The Unholy Consult I'm going to feel very much like I did after reading Neuropath.

Humbled.

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That is one of the things I'm curious about. Why didn't the gods have a problem with Fane? Or even Inri Sejenus? Why didn't Conphas just send for a narindar after he was Censured?

I am still not sure what gods really are. I don't think a god on Earwa is anywhere close to a god in Erikson's world, or one the American Gods from Gaiman. I am more convinced that gods are their practitioners (those who act out or suffer the domain of the god) across past-present-future. So the god of disease is a conscious manifestation of disease and those who suffer disease and his worshipers across history all at once. Same with the other gods. The Four Horned Brother then represents a kind of inversion, as the god opposed to the other gods, a trickster manifestation perhaps representing opposition to faith, or maybe faith in doubt.

I think the Nonmen, who view time and worship as more holistic, seeing the holy a pantheistic force rather than separate forces personified in the Outside, are thus "damned" because they have no one casting nets for them in the Outside. Of course, all this net casting and soul mansion stuff is from a human perspective, the one Nonman we see damned was damned for keeping slaves.

Gods are epochal beings, not quite alive. Since the Now eludes them, they are forever divided. Sometimes nothing blinds souls more profoundly than the apprehension of the Whole. Men need recall this when they pray.

—AJENCIS, THE THIRD ANALYTIC OF MEN

The Poet will yield up his stylus only when the Geometer can explain how Life can at once be a point and a line. How can all time, all creation, come to the now? Make no mistake: this moment, the instant of this very breath, is the frail thread from which all creation hangs.

That men dare to be thoughtless…

—TERES ANSANSIUS, THE CITY OF MEN

Gods, I think, are sort of like light, they are both a wave and a particle, or as this chapter header quote says, a point and a line. This is why Gods have trouble bothering themselves with the individual movements of human souls, this is why you have the disinterest of the gods, in general, in the specifics of human everyday existence. To see an individual point in time would require a lot of focus and attention. All of time, for the gods, is a perpetual moment, like an electron, they aren't so much in a specific place/time, as they are in a potential place/time. note, there is a thread in the three seas forum about Bakker and Quantum that is sort of interesting but doesn't go anywhere.

Souls can no more see the origins of their thought than they can see the backs of their heads or the insides of their entrails. And since souls cannot differentiate what they cannot see, there is a peculiar sense in which the soul cannot self-differentiate. So it is always, in a peculiar sense, the same time when they think, the same place where they think, and the same individual who does the thinking. Like tipping a spiral on its side until only a circle can be seen, the passage of moments always remains now, the carnival of spaces always sojourns here, and the succession of people always becomes me. The truth is, if the soul could apprehend itself the way it apprehended the world—if it could apprehend its origins—it would see that there is no now, there is no here, and there is no me. In other words, it would realize that just as there is no circle, there is no soul.

—MEMGOWA, CELESTIAL APHORISMS

Emphasis mine, if we take this in the context of the Nau Cayuti dreams, it is suggestive of what the No God is accomplishing. Perhaps by embedding what is inside the carapace with enough animata (souls lashed to machinery) or similar usage of souls, the meta-soul of all those sacrificed apprehends itself, and in apprehending itself it loses all comprehension of itself. Note the inherent contradiction here as well, in the final sentance, that opens up a place for where the Aporos, as a system of knowledge, might be useful in incarnating the No-God. The contradiction is that you create a meta-soul whose only realization is that it cannot/does not exist. The No God is then something of a soul chorae. And once it is opened up to the world when the carapace is punctured, the contradiction causes it to self annihilate, or neutralize itself.

Interestingly enough, and I am certain this is deliberate, Sorainus wrote a book called the book of circles and spirals. Ajencis also writes about circles

The world is a circle that possesses as many centres as it does men.

—AJENCIS, THE THIRD ANALYTIC OF MEN

Akka also talks about this
For Men, no circle is ever closed. We walk ever in spirals.

—DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

But let's combine Ajencis and Memgowa and see what we get:

The world is a circle that possesses as many centres as it does men.

—AJENCIS, THE THIRD ANALYTIC OF MEN

In life, your soul is but the extension of your body, which reaches inward until it finds its centre in spirit. In death, your body is but the extension of your soul, which reaches outward until it finds it circumference in flesh. In both instances, all things appear the same. Thus are the dead and the living confused.

—MEMGOWA, THE BOOK OF DIVINE ACTS

The proposition “I am the centre” need never be uttered. It is the assumption upon which all certainty and all doubt turns.

—AJENCIS, THE THIRD ANALYTIC OF MEN

Note, that in this last one, Bakker uses the Magic Word. The great C word, in combination with the dread D word. Since those two words are like cocaine to Bakker, my monkey brain wants to make this particular aphorism particularly important.

So what's the point of all these quotes. I think that souls, gods, centres etc are all very significant and interrelated. And that both gods and souls are about perception/vantage point/Point-of-view--such as from the centre--as they are about identity. That identity is related to perception in interesting ways. It's a sort of Shroedinger's Cat scenario. it all plays into that concept of the circuit of watcher and watched that seems such an important bit of the metaphysics of Earwa. Or should we say dialectic of watcher and watched?

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My last speculation buried, I'll add a couple things to your theory, Crow's Eye. Actually, that's untrue because as much as I like it, I seek to detract from it.

I won't dispute your facts, as i definitely think you have a better understanding of the books than I do. That being said, however, I am not sure that your post is necessarily inconsistent with my theory.

The Consult labored for roughly a thousand years to bring about the advent of the No-God. Mekeritrig was probably in better condition during the first Apocalypse then during current events given that his Erraticism has progressed almost three thousand years since introducing the Mangaecca to the Inchoroi.

The Consult do nothing this entire time but work to achieve the No-God, using the Tekne & Sorcery (likely a combination of Aporos and Gnostic). Whether or not this culminates with the captives of the random warring around Kuniuri, we don't have any explicit proof, though, perhaps this is where Achamian's Dreams are leading us.

I don't necessarily read the thousand years of laboring to mean that it was a long, slow process being done in accordance with a very specific set of blueprints, but rather being a trial and error process based on a concept. So the hard part was determining how to make it work, and No-God 2.0 could take far less time to produce.

The No-God is destroyed, the Indigo Plague happens, though the Mandate dispute that this is caused by the No-God's ashes as "the body" of the No-God was recovered by the Consult and interned at Golgotterath. Just stating a fact, I'm not sure what this means.

Then the Mandate and Mangaecca continued to openly skirmish with each other in Atrithau (albeit without sorcery, which always interested me), the Mandate's only proof (which wasn't proof in the Three-Seas, apparently) that the Consult still existed until three hundred years ago when they invented a new weapon of the Old Science, or Tekne, the skin-spies.

So if the Consult wanted to keep its workings a secret, and wanted the world (particularly the Gnostic and Anagogic sorcerers) to believe that the skins spies, if discovered, were merely products of the Pshuke, why did that first skin spy taunt Akka like that? It basically announced that it was, in fact, an agent of the Consult. If secrecy was important, it could have simply kept silent and let Akka merely speculate, at best, that it was a product of the Tekne. Instead, it took the opportunity to prove to Akka that it was in fact from the Consult, and that knowledge would crash through the Mandate like a tidal wave. If you are the Consult and you need to convince the world that you are a sufficient enough threat to require such a war, you have to know that your biggest allies in that effort would be the Mandate.

The idea of the Consult going into hiding before this could just be the Mandate's spin on things, particularly instead the Consult simply no longer had the numbers or resources to keep the fight going.

I guess then, the mechanism that I, and the books, seem to highlight is that the Mangaecca and the Consult relied heavily on Aurax's diminishing understanding of the Ark and the Tekne during the First Apocalypse and then Aurax forgot and the Consult, together, set out to rediscover the understanding over two thousand years.

That would definitely explain much about the long wait between No-Gods. But it doesn't rule out the idea that the No-God needs souls, and that the Consult needs to bring war to Min-Uroikas to provide them. It could be that the creation of the skin spies signals that Aurang and the Consult have sufficiently regained the lost knowledge needed to use the Tekne to create the No-God.

However, the idea that Kellhus might have understood the Consult's need and provided them with the Ordeal might be noteworthy. And that Achamian figures out that Kellhus is going to betray the Ordeal and has to convince the Nonmen to save Men from their own tyrant.

It could be that Kellhus finally puzzled this all out around the time he confronted Mo at the end of TTT. It could also explain the large defeat the Ordeal suffered at the end of the book - the first culling of the hoard. If the entire Ordeal is, in fact, capable of reaching and smashing Golgotterath, then he will have to slowly weaken it a bit at a time. I wonder if eating Sranc might not have some negative effect on the Ordeal as well.

But that's just too simple. I have a feeling that when I finally read The Unholy Consult I'm going to feel very much like I did after reading Neuropath.

Humbled.

Ha. No doubt.

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Emphasis mine, if we take this in the context of the Nau Cayuti dreams, it is suggestive of what the No God is accomplishing. Perhaps by embedding what is inside the carapace with enough animata (souls lashed to machinery) or similar usage of souls, the meta-soul of all those sacrificed apprehends itself, and in apprehending itself it loses all comprehension of itself. Note the inherent contradiction here as well, in the final sentance, that opens up a place for where the Aporos, as a system of knowledge, might be useful in incarnating the No-God. The contradiction is that you create a meta-soul whose only realization is that it cannot/does not exist. The No God is then something of a soul chorae. And once it is opened up to the world when the carapace is punctured, the contradiction causes it to self annihilate, or neutralize itself

Remember this line

instilled animata - or proxies, as they called them - enslaved souls, whose only purpose was to complete the circuit between watcher and watched that was the foundation of all reality, sorcerous or not.

The Souls trapped within the No-God are Unwatched Watchers, I think. The Carapace prevents the trapped Souls inside from observed from the outside. Like, the whole idea behind quantum immortality is the fact that, you can't observe your own death, so you cannot die. With the No-God, the Souls entrapped are aware of everything but themselves. But to be a soul is to be aware of your soul, and to be watched by others. By being blind to its soul, the No-God is unique among all things. The No-God, as a Soul-Chorae is antithetical to reality itself. We're told the Whirlwind reaches upwards to the end of the sky, carrying debris, but where does that debris go? Tornadoes toss them, what if the shit the Whirlwind raises from the ground simply ceases to exist as it travels the Whirlwind?

Even a human trapped in the wilderness, is Watched, both by himself and by the Outside. But the Gods are blind to the No-God, and the No-God is blind to itself. The No-God literally "salts" reality. "The soul that encounters him passes no further" - those who die in Mog-Pharau's presence aren't trapped in a Topos, or even in the Carapace - THEY CEASE TO EXIST.

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Remember this line

The Souls trapped within the No-God are Unwatched Watchers, I think. The Carapace prevents the trapped Souls inside from observed from the outside. Like, the whole idea behind quantum immortality is the fact that, you can't observe your own death, so you cannot die. With the No-God, the Souls entrapped are aware of everything but themselves. But to be a soul is to be aware of your soul, and to be watched by others. By being blind to its soul, the No-God is unique among all things. The No-God, as a Soul-Chorae is antithetical to reality itself. We're told the Whirlwind reaches upwards to the end of the sky, carrying debris, but where does that debris go? Tornadoes toss them, what if the shit the Whirlwind raises from the ground simply ceases to exist as it travels the Whirlwind?

Even a human trapped in the wilderness, is Watched, both by himself and by the Outside. But the Gods are blind to the No-God, and the No-God is blind to itself. The No-God literally "salts" reality. "The soul that encounters him passes no further" - those who die in Mog-Pharau's presence aren't trapped in a Topos, or even in the Carapace - THEY CEASE TO EXIST.

And all this from studying the philosophy of souls. curse those damn mangaecca philosophers. :D Even Inri says they're worse than Sranc

. . . though he consorts with man, woman and child, though he lays with beasts and makes a mockery of his seed, never shall he be as licentious as the philosopher, who lays with all things imaginable.

—INRI SEJENUS, SCHOLARS, 36, 21, THE TRACTATE

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I want lockesnow and Madness to enter into a tremendous professional rivalry a la The Prestige in vying to become the world's foremost Earwan scholar.

I'm not kidding.

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Thinking more about it, Souls ceasing to Exist with the No-God walking makes sense.

It's why children are stillborn, and why the Consult calls the No-God the Black Heaven - the No-God IS Heaven to the Consult. The No-God is Oblivion. Their Souls are destroyed. The Consult would rather, you know, live forever in a world with no afterlife. But if they have to die, they'd prefer oblivion to damnation. Thus, the No-God, which destroys those souls which are exposed to it (during birth and death), is their Black Heaven.

It's like how those sorcerers with the deepest marks being to Salt when close to a chorae. The No-God's Unreality-Aura extends over the entire world. The closer you approach to the actual whirlwind, the more reality begins to end. At the point of the Carapace itself, Reality is Unraveling - the Whirlwind.

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Wow. Yeah, that makes sense actually. The No-God devours souls, and to keep the engine running it has to do this constantly. Perhaps the Few are even better souls to eat, and Kellhus is delivering the Schools to its maw.

...again, wow. Might not turn out to be the case, but some great deduction by boarders nonetheless!

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Crow's Eye, as I said, I like your theory. I'm not sure our posts are incompatible either. A question and an anomaly then.

The question is I always figured that the Consult just needed time. But its being suggested that they need souls, not simply time. Can we Nerdanel our theories enough to suggest that the Consult, and not Seswatha, are primarily responsible for the Celmomian Ordeal? Achamian's Dreams in WLW suggest that Ieva, at least, was an agent of the Consult.

The anomaly in my perspective you've pointed out, Crow's Eye. I'd have to reread TDTCB passage but does Achamian only realize that Skeaos is an artifact of the Tekne after he calls Achamian Chigra? That smacks of intent on the part of the Consult, yet, obviously, throughout the books the Consult seemed to utilize the skin-spies to ridicule the Mandate and the Sagas and keep the Three-Seas mostly ignorant of the Consult or Golgotterath, suggesting again, that only time is needed to resurrect the No-God? Remember that Skeaos and Istyuli spend all of their agency convincing Xerius to kill the Cishaurim, as the Consult thinks it's their metaphysics, which enable them to see the skin-spies - which may or may not be true, regardless that it was Moenghus figured it out.

Lol @ Triskele.

Honoured, man. I'd definitely enjoy a Prestige style showdown with lockesnow. I will say though, as much as I'd like to be the ultimate Bakker fanatic, I'm pretty sure White Lord, Entropic_existence, and Thorsten could still out-Earwa me. Big ups and props to those deceased avatars - R.I.P, wherever you're existing now.

So it seems No-God resurrection = time or souls?

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They need time to collect souls? Perhaps instilling the souls into the mechanisms is a delicate procedure requiring strapping the person to a table in the Golden Room, and chanting endless incantations while inscribing shit onto metal with acid on the nanoscopic level. We're told that in order to transmit Aurang's soul to the Synthese, the Mangaecca have to sit around his body, and chant endlessly, after all.

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Believe it or not, I've only read PON through once, completely, I use the boards, and flipping through my copies of the books to keep me up on the world, most of what I've learned has come from reading the endless bakker threads. I may or may not have, at one point, typed up all the chapter header aphorisms into a word document, but who would admit to doing such an ocd thing?

And yeah, Thorston, entropic, White Lord etc who apparently all perished in the first apocalypse, they are the true masters of Earwan Lore.

I have reread the prologue to TDTCB probably five times, but every time I try to reread the whole book I eventually get bored. I'm considering doing a 'rearrange' and read the whole thing out of order. Like Prologue, Akka chapter, Xerius Chapter, Akka chapter, Cnaiur Chapter, Akka chapter, Conphas Chapter, etc, since it's such a slog to get through 100 pages of Akka only to have him disappear for 160 pages. meh. My most successful reread I burned out on the second xerius chapter.

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Regarding what it was that interro-fucked Esmenet in TDTCB in Sumna, there was some discussion about it. Well when TTC-Sarcellus (aka Maëngi) speaks to the synthese and he refers to Esmenet as "She's far more than the simple whore I took her to be, Maëngi. She's a student of the game."The scowl became a smile. "A twelve-talent whore after all..."

So The synthese (I can't remember if it's Aurax or Aurang) was probably possessing a man, the way he later possessed Esmenet. The Synthese body was near, but Esme didn't notice when it entered the room as well. In terms of what happened to the man's body when the possessed, I'm presuming a skin spy was stationed at the window and whisked the body away to kill and dispose of the vessel.

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Even a human trapped in the wilderness, is Watched, both by himself and by the Outside. But the Gods are blind to the No-God, and the No-God is blind to itself. The No-God literally "salts" reality. "The soul that encounters him passes no further" - those who die in Mog-Pharau's presence aren't trapped in a Topos, or even in the Carapace - THEY CEASE TO EXIST.

If individual souls are fragments of the ur-soul which is the god of gods, then if you cause parts of that ur-soul to cease to exist, are you not slowly killing god, one individual soul at a time?

Eta also wouldn't death by No-god save you from damnation and guarantee oblivion?

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I think that's what is being implied, NE, on both points.

Actually, it's funny but these speculations, that I found inverted and awkward before, are beginning to take the distinct shape of the Three-Seas discussions and the culmination of those in Thorsten's posts - though to be clear, his stuff does not speak for all of our opinions, certainly not my own. He's a talented opponent and had some redeemable thesis'.

That the war in Earwa is none other than the war for the World-Soul, or in light of WLW, perhaps, the Universe-Soul.

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If you conglomerated enough souls on this side, then killed it and sent it to the outside, then worship it, could you create your own compensatory lesser god who would then reward you with no damnation. It'd be easier than killing the whole world

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If individual souls are fragments of the ur-soul which is the god of gods, then if you cause parts of that ur-soul to cease to exist, are you not slowly killing god, one individual soul at a time?

Eta also wouldn't death by No-god save you from damnation and guarantee oblivion?

With the knife, he cut a lateral line across her forearm. The pain was sharp and quick, but she bit her lip rather than cry out. "Swazond," he said in harsh Scylvendi tones. "The man you have killed is gone from the world, Serwë. He exists only here, a scar upon your arm. It is the mark of his absence, of all the ways his soul will not move, and of all the acts he will not commit. A mark of the weight you now bear." He smeared the wound with his palm, then clutched her hand.

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Don't need the no-god for oblivion, which is what Cnaiur is talking about. It is also the 'afterlife' that Non-men chose.

there's three basic options: Oblivion, Damnation, or Redemption. The idea is that without the interest of the various 'agencies' (as the Nonmen call them) inhabiting the Outside, one simply falls into oblivion - dies.

Mengedda rather speaks for the fact that topoi can be created whilst the no-god walks.

The quote about souls passing no further means the don't get to the outside. Indeed, the exchange between Ses and the dragon on the feilds of Eleneot suggest that the No-god actively does something with locally released souls, however Celmomas' prophetic vision demonstrates that some soul-based outside connection is still possible even in the No-god's immeadiate vicinity. Perhaps this has something to do with Celmomas' twin-souled nature.

Also, the continued opperational effectiveness of sorcery during the appocolypse provides further evidence that the manifestation of the No-god does not completely short circuit the connection of world/outside.

The presence of Chorae on the carapace indicates that the sorcerous component of his manufacture/summoning are contrived via aporetic sorcery.

As I've previously suggested, moving the No-god into the thick of the final battle at Mengedda is a stupid move unless it involves the doing domething critical, like the final phase of the summoning of the No-god.

One of the principles of Earwa is the importance of the inertia and power granted through longevity. I propose that the No-god's nascent id has to age for a certain length of time and that an acretion of properly conditioned and matured souls are grafted onto him during this time in a deliberate and time consuming manner.

Consider the mental state of Nau as he waits in the line to the Golden room, and how slowly that line progresses. It's hardly time efficient. I'd also propose they need to select genetic material from every human bloodline seperated by some level of difference dictated by the Tekne of genetics, which is why Shauritaus was critical to the No-God's design.

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Crow's Eye, as I said, I like your theory. I'm not sure our posts are incompatible either. A question and an anomaly then.

The question is I always figured that the Consult just needed time. But its being suggested that they need souls, not simply time. Can we Nerdanel our theories enough to suggest that the Consult, and not Seswatha, are primarily responsible for the Celmomian Ordeal? Achamian's Dreams in WLW suggest that Ieva, at least, was an agent of the Consult.

Well, I don't have the time to scour the novels to find the passages where Akka talks about Seswatha convincing Celmomas, but this wiki seems to imply that Celmomas made the first strike, based on rumor alone. See year 2123. Question is, how would anyone know this? It's not like anyone could just stroll around Golgotterath and figure it out. Could the Consult have intentionally leaked the info through the nonmen? After all, who best to convince the humans that the Consult was a threat but the nonmen who spent millennia warring against them? Sounds very much like using the Mandate this time around...

Also, in the year 1123, it is said that the Mangecca rediscovered a means of saving the damned from salvation. It could be that what they rediscovered was the sorcerous method for "catching" souls, which they took to Golgotterath.

The anomaly in my perspective you've pointed out, Crow's Eye. I'd have to reread TDTCB passage but does Achamian only realize that Skeaos is an artifact of the Tekne after he calls Achamian Chigra? That smacks of intent on the part of the Consult, yet, obviously, throughout the books the Consult seemed to utilize the skin-spies to ridicule the Mandate and the Sagas and keep the Three-Seas mostly ignorant of the Consult or Golgotterath, suggesting again, that only time is needed to resurrect the No-God? Remember that Skeaos and Istyuli spend all of their agency convincing Xerius to kill the Cishaurim, as the Consult thinks it's their metaphysics, which enable them to see the skin-spies - which may or may not be true, regardless that it was Moenghus figured it out.

I did re-read the scene with Akka and "Skeaos". The first words out of his mouth when he sees Akka were "a Mandati?". At that point Skeaos is said to radiate intensity when staring at Akka, and strain against the chains. Akka backs away a bit in fear, and eventually tells Xerius that it looks like sorcery but bears no mark. Xerius is definitely surprised and a bit thrown off about how Skeaos is suddenly acting. Then Skeaos starts speaking whatever language that was, and calls Akka Chigra. Then it breaks the chains and all hell breaks loose. I now feel even stronger that Akka was being taunted, and Skeaos acted completely differently than he had when it was just Xerius there with his people, based off of Xerius's reaction. Skeaos definitely revealed himself as Consult intentionally. If it wanted to pretend it was the result of some water-bearer metaphysics, it easily could have.

As for the others casting doubt on the Mandate mission, maybe they realized that actually saying that the Mandate might be right would only serve to make their leaders, etc trust them less. And then, if eventually discovered, those leaders might remember how much their "counselors" ridiculed the Mandate in an attempt to discredit them? In other words, if the leaders ever came to the conclusion that these skin spies were Consult, and those same skin spies tried hard to convince them that the Mandate was right, it might cause those leaders to trust the Mandate less.

Also, it could be that the Consult feared that the Cishaurim would expose and root out the skin spies in a very low-key manner, when dramatic and shocking exposure (with the Mandate already frothing about the Consult's return) might stir the world's leaders into action and war. But if those same counselors were promoting the Mandate mission, the leaders might be apt to trust the Mandate less (or assume that the Mandate was in league with the Consult, or in league with "someone" trying to use fear of the Consult as a cover).

So it seems No-God resurrection = time or souls?

I like the idea of the No-God as an eater/destroyer of souls. If Oblivion is the opposite of salvation/damnation, then maybe the No-God itself was the seal. Everyone at the time seemed to assume it was purely a weapon of some sort, but what if it was the pinnacle of the Consult's plans? The subsequent wars were simply to eradicate souls (maybe causing the No-God to grow stronger) and eliminate any threat the people might pose to destroy it?

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Nonmen Siqu informed Seswatha who in turn rallied Celmomas and his allies for the First Investiture. Honestly, though, this is tantamount to confirming your theory, Crow's Eye, as I have a feeling that Ishterebinth is tragically on the fence, inadvertently and consciously, helping humanity and the Consult.

EDIT: From that Timeline page or, accurately, the TTT Appendix:

2123 - Nonmen Siqu inform the Grandmaster of the Sohonc that the Mangaecca, or Consult as they had come to be called, had uncovered lost Inchoroi secrets that would lead to the world’s destruction. Seswatha in turn convinced Anasûrimbor Celmomas to declare war on Golgotterath, known as the Great Ordeal.

One more quick thing, I've always that the Second Apocalypse would serve some Bakker inverse mirror of the first. However, I think it's likely that the Great Ordeal will be forced to winter in Dagliash at the end of the Unholy Consult after the Seige.

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Regarding what it was that interro-fucked Esmenet in TDTCB in Sumna, there was some discussion about it. Well when TTC-Sarcellus (aka Maëngi) speaks to the synthese and he refers to Esmenet as "She's far more than the simple whore I took her to be, Maëngi. She's a student of the game."The scowl became a smile. "A twelve-talent whore after all..."

So The synthese (I can't remember if it's Aurax or Aurang) was probably possessing a man, the way he later possessed Esmenet. The Synthese body was near, but Esme didn't notice when it entered the room as well. In terms of what happened to the man's body when the possessed, I'm presuming a skin spy was stationed at the window and whisked the body away to kill and dispose of the vessel.

It's a glamour by Aurang(x), in TTT when he goes to meet Esme in the "walking between wards is easy while their author practices other arcana" scene, Esme sees the shadow of a small wing and then thinks she knows the feel of stubble is an illusion.

Well that's the impression i get from my reading anyway.

The scene is in TTT not sure what page but it describes the "possession" of Esme, i think it finishes with "my children imitate, but i possess" or something.

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