[Book Spoilers] EP107 Discussion

[RAddichio]

Think Iain Glenn deserves a shout-out for being picture perfect week to week. He is Jorah Mormont...he inhabits the character. Can't wait to see him as Obi-Wan in the next Star Wars remake.

Agreed - as w/Baelish, Iain Glenn totally conforms to my impression of grrm's written character. For true Iain Glenn admirers, you can catch him as a villainous character in series 9 of the UK spythriller 'Spooks' -- another great performance. His Vaughan plays most effectively off the controversial fallen MI5 operative Lucas North(Richard Armitage - another fine actor with amazing gravitas)

The Jon scenes are authentic in that they bore me in the exact same way they did in the books. Definitely didn't miss the lack of Jon the last couple episodes - always the most dreaded chapters for me, especially book one in where Jon spends 98% of his time whining. Speaking of maesters, brutal dig by Maester Luwin on Theon. Was, like, "Oh, snap!" And from maybe the most unexpected source possible.

Isn't it curious how subjective impressions of individual characters can be. For me the Dany/Dothraki chapters were most boring and triggered feelings of dread and little enthusiasm to continue reading, whenever I saw her name on a new chapter

[RAddichio]

I liked the episode, even if I knew what was going to happen, still kept me on the edge of my seat.

I think Ned is an honorable man and just can't act any other way, it's not because he's not a smart man, he can't act against the principles he has lived by all his life, his is a tragic story because of his loyalty to others.

I also liked Tywin's intro and the scene with Jamie, great scene between the two actors, believed them as father and son.

I agree w/your assessment of Ned's character. He's a far better, more honorable man than the vast majority in Westeros. It's not that he needed to be more like them, but the exact opposite.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Isn't it curious how subjective impressions of individual characters can be. For me the Dany/Dothraki chapters were most boring and triggered feelings of dread and little enthusiasm to continue reading, whenever I saw her name on a new chapter

On one (or more) of my rereads I actually skipped all the Dany chapters. I would like to say I read them really well the first time, but in truth I just skimmed them (after GoT the first time).

[SnowBastard]

This was a great episode! Lots of people bashing on the LF scene...hmmm. The moans, I agree were a bit too loud and took just a little away from his monologue but the monologue was fantastic! The actor who plays him portrays him exceptionally well in my opinion. Hes a ruthless piece of shit and he sounds monotonous because he doesn't care about anyone enough to bring emotion. If he was an emotional wreck he wouldn't be LF. Funny enough, this is the exact way I pictured and heard him while reading the books.

Cons

-I don't think Mark Addy hit the mark on the death bed - he came out sounding strained rather than dying.

-The presence of Ros baffles me to no end.

-Maester Aemon just doesnt feel right. I think Aemon and Renly have been the only snags the casting thus far.

-As just mentioned, I simply am not believing anything Renly does. The actor has not sold me on anything. ( Hard to imagine him pulling off the peach scene next season.)

Pros

-Drogo, Drogo, Drogo. I can't say enough about Jason Mamoa's silent but amazing performance. His rage and love for Dany was shown here finally throughout the episode. Beautiful acting. Drogo is the exact same as I saw him in the book!

-Jorah and Dany have great chemistry. Their scenes are always good.

-The godswood scene at the wall was superb.

-The betrayal of Ned Stark with LF to end the episode was a highlight for me. The look of absolute frustration on the face of Ned before the shot was cut to credits was just another testament of Sean Bean's powerful acting ability.

-Tywin and Jaime had the best scene in the entire episode hands down. Nikolaj is Jaime effin Lannister and Dance is Tywin Lannister, end of discussion!

Neutral

-Theon and Osha were totally bailed out by Luwin to save the scene. Not really digging Oshas character as much as the book. Theon gets a pass.

Anxiously anticipating the next episode as I think it will properly set up the most insane plot twist in movie/book/show history! I remember reading it for the first time ever and re reading it for the next hour again and again to make sure that it happened. I hope that non readers will feel the exact same way.

[Xenophon]

Wow, despite my low expectations the sexposition scene still managed to amaze me with its terribleness. First of all, it's getting old; Viserys in the bath and Renly/Loras were clever, but there's only so many times you can recycle the same sex = politics metaphor. Second, the sex threatened to overshadow the exposition. Loud screams and "Play with her ass"?? Were the script writers all 15 year boys? It's getting to the point where I'm embarrassed to watch GoT with friends.

Fortunately the rest of the episode was all pretty good.

Interesting change in the Renly/Ned scene. Having Renly say he wanted the throne himself makes Ned's refusal of his offer seem much more reasonable. It's a big change from the books, where Renly was only proposing cutting Cersei out. I don't really mind it though. Makes Ned a bit more sympathetic, while also foreshadowing Renly's campaign. Like others said, the actual dialogue doesn't really make sense, but I think everyone got the idea.

Drogo's speech was great. If you just described the scene, it would sound ridiculous and cheesy, but it worked.

[Jaime L]

Agreed - as w/Baelish, Iain Glenn totally conforms to my impression of grrm's written character. For true Iain Glenn admirers, you can catch him as a villainous character in series 9 of the UK spythriller 'Spooks' -- another great performance. His Vaughan plays most effectively off the controversial fallen MI5 operative Lucas North(Richard Armitage - another fine actor with amazing gravitas)

Yeah, cause his self-assured potrayal of Jorah interested me I checked out his filmography. Man's been in a ton of things including Kingdom of Heaven, Tomb Raider and Resident Evil. Imagine he was more impressive in Spooks or some of his theater work, but justifies the sense I've had that he seemed familiar.

Isn't it curious how subjective impressions of individual characters can be. For me the Dany/Dothraki chapters were most boring and triggered feelings of dread and little enthusiasm to continue reading, whenever I saw her name on a new chapter

Well, to be honest, the Dany scenes weren't my favorites in the books either. They felt like a distraction from the core action occurring in Kings Landing, the Eyrie and other places.

Her story arc did get more interesting to me as she set off into the unknown, whereas the Jon chapters never lost their angsty, paint by numbers fantasy feel. Nothing he did or accomplished felt surprising and the frequent deus ex machina to his benefit kinda bothered me. But beyond that still was substantially happier to see Eddard, Tyrion, Catelyn, Arya, Sansa or Jaime showing up as the chapter heading than any of the satellite storylines, but that's just me. I get it that the "satellite" storylines probably become the main ones before this whole thing runs out (a song of fire and ice is a small hint), but they rarely hold my interest to the extent of the intrigue and storytelling possibilites that envelops the POV characters who actually interact with one another.

[The Anti-Targ]

On one (or more) of my rereads I actually skipped all the Dany chapters. I would like to say I read them really well the first time, but in truth I just skimmed them (after GoT the first time).

I'm re-reading GoT now and skipping every Dany chapter. Probably won't skip the Dany chapters in my aCoK re-read, will likely skim those to find the bits I feel I want/need to read. Will probably skip the aSoS chapters. Not really interested in reading about her conquest of the Slaver cities.

[Penny the Direwolf]

The tension is ramping up. From now on things will irrevocably definitely change. Some notes:

• I'm not sure why Varys apparently sent assassins to kill Daenerys when it was established that he conspired with Illyrio on behalf the Targaryens.
  

I have always wondered why everyone on here seems to think Varys is being truthful when he talks to Illyrio. Varys lies to everyone! We have no idea what side he is actually on.

[Penny the Direwolf]

I thought this episode was going to be better.. I am re-reading GoT and prior to this episode, I did not over-read (I always stopped where the privious' weeks episode stopped.) This week, though, I realized that if I wanted to get all 4 books read by july 12th (and the best day of my life?) I'd have to get going. So, I knew everything that I thought would be in this episode, fresh in my brain... I wanted more "you live or you die scene." I wanted Tyrion telling Bronn about his wife. I wanted Bran and Robb in Winterfell meeting all the Stark bannermen.... What did I get instead? Two women fake-f-ing each other.

Now don't get me wrong, I love Littlefinger. I loved it when he refused Roz and said "I'm saving myself." Some weird romantic part of me feels terrible for Littlefinger...and hopes beyond hope that he has something deep down that's likable. I think that thing is his love for Cat. I love that by him saying that line, I can think that he really was planning on marrying Cat (once Ned killed himself with honor). Think about it...he didn't marry Lysa until after Cat was confirmed dead. I think he was saving himself for Cat...and settled for using Lysa for scheming plans. I also have no problems with him talking abut his past to his whores. It just shows how he has no friends, and he doesn't think enough of the whores to be worried about them being spies or reading into it.

But...Littlefinger characterization was covered up with nipples and thrusting. It was distracting and gross. It's to the point where I have to warn my friends that it's a great show...but is pretty much soft core porn.

[Steel_Wind]

Illyrio explains this in part to us. They never bet on Daenerys initially. She was simply the price of the Dothraki. The bet was always on Viserys.

The assassination order for Daenerys was given at a time when Viserys was, to the knowledge of Varys, still alive. Varys also hedged his bets by making sure Mormont knew about the order. Mormont was not given a pardon in the book so that he would stay, continue to provide intelligence and interfere with the attempt. There was a very good chance that Mormont would foil it; the poisoned wine was selected as a weapon which was relatively easy for Mormont to intercept. If he didn't, with Viserys alive and the Khal short a wife and unborn son, it was hoped that Khal Drogo's pride and rage would then cause the Dothraki to invade - and Viserys takes the throne. If she survived the assassination attempt -- same result.

The granting of the pardon to Mormont in the TV series is a significant departure from the books. I believe it is D&D trying to simplify matters for the audience -- but is also D&D hedging their bets so that Mormont could be allowed to stay on with Dany in ASoS if the series needs him to. (Barristan cut for budget reasons, actor can't be resigned/ passes away, etc.)

In any event, Viserys died -- and to paraphrase Illyrio, so did Dany. The empty child she was "drowned in the Dothraki Sea". What emerged from the Dothraki Sea was someone -- and something -- mostly unexpected.

The above is the easy explanation. The more unlikely and more complex one is that Varys is in league with the house of Black and White and he may be, (though is not necessarily) a full priest and even a Faceless man. There is a scene in the House of Black and White where Arya attends a meeting on Level 2 of the Temple and one of the attendees could easily fit a description of Varys. If so, Varys' longterm motivations are, accordingly, both inscrutable and informed by prophecy. Again, if so, in addition to Mormont as insurance, Varys' also bet that Dany would survive the attempt because of the prophecy.

[Whoring Drunkard]

Maybe that was his point, but he never states that nor even implies it PRIOR to Ned bringing up Stannis. In fact, it seems quite the opposite: that Renly is saying exactly what he wants to accomplish: lets strike now, hold the King and keep power for ourselves. Why mention Stannis at that point if the whole point is to rule through Joff?

That’s my problem: why does Ned mention Stannis when nobody is discussing the line of succession? Why bring up Stannis AT ALL?

It gets even more curious once Stannis is out in the open; Renly starts on this bizarre rant about how this is not time to talk about the line of succession and how HE would make a good King. Who the HELL even MENTIONED usurping the Throne; the whole CONTEXT of the discussion was keeping Joff on the Throne. It actually makes no sense.

Hmm, that's not quite how I took the scene. It's clearly a change from the books in that TV Renly tries to sell (poorly) Ned on backing him as king. So TV Renly is NOT talking about keeping Joff on the throne. TV Renly was in fact talking about seizing Joff and installing another king, because whoever controls the rightful king has the power to install whomever he wants as the king.

TV Ned plays along with this premise and says in effect that in that case, if it's not Joff, it still wouldn't be you. It would be Stannis.

[ingsve]

Looking at the episode again I realise that there are five Kingsguard present in front of Joffrey. Jaime is obviously not there but who is missing other than him? Was there someone missing in the novels at this point in the story or is this just a coincidence of some sort? Perhaps it's for symmetrical purposes.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Looking at the episode again I realise that there are five Kingsguard present in front of Joffrey. Jaime is obviously not there but who is missing other than him? Was there someone missing in the novels at this point in the story or is this just a coincidence of some sort? Perhaps it's for symmetrical purposes.

Might be a kingsguard with Myrcella and Tommen who are not present, just in case someone sent his men to take them as hostages.

[Mad Queen]

In the novels, Sansa notices that all the Kingsguard except Jaime were there.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Doesn't matter. As the Russians said: Quantity has a quality of it's own. 40,000 horsemen vs 20 - 60,000 soldiers in each of the 7 kingdoms would soon lose a war of attrition with no hope of replenishing their numbers. No Jaime getting 30,000 men of his own made Robert's angst over a Dothraki invasion look ridiculous. It was very important for Roberts 5 vs 1 lesson mean that none of the 5 alone could field an army large enough to cause significant loss to the Dothraki. The Lannisters clearly have a large enough force to worry the Dothraki.

The Dothraki horde is 40,000 experienced warriors all on horseback, with horsebows. The majority of the Westeros army are unarmoured peasants, many probably carryng pitchforks. If they were heavy infantry, they could beat the horde by forming a shieldwall, but they would be too poorly armoured and too poorly trained. Plus the horde would just ignore the shieldwall and burn and pillage. The knights of Westeros would do better, but there are much fewer of them. Plus the dothraki are light cavalry, if a large body of knights charged, the dothraki would evade it and attack the flanks. The dothraki, being horse archers, would probably target the horses of the knights.

In any cae, I think Dany's plan is to hook up with Targaryen loyalists which would give her access to knights and foot as well as castles and logistics.

[Volderon]

Funny little quote here...in ASOS after Jon becomes LC, Pyp says, "Sam, Sam, Sam the Wizard, Sam the wonder..."

Coincidence?

[Narrow C]

Enjoying the whole series so far, first time posting.

One angle on the Tywin skinning his own deer that nobody's brought up (although the symbolism of the stag is obvious)... Tywin and Robert both went hunting. Tywin came back successful; Robert came back dying.

One other thought... We can solve two major nitpick issues in one fell swoop:

Name Roz's left boob "Shaggydog" and her right boob "Grey wind." That way the "where's all the direwolves?' questions can go away, because you'll see them every episode.

Just so.

[Carldog]

After viewing last nights re-run of ep 7, it seemed to me that with the shock factor removed from the porn secne the show moved along better. In Sundays showing I was waiting for more in your face footage, but it didn't come. Made it a little better the second time through... still wasn't a great ep.

[Vuron]

Enjoying the whole series so far, first time posting.

One angle on the Tywin skinning his own deer that nobody's brought up (although the symbolism of the stag is obvious)... Tywin and Robert both went hunting. Tywin came back successful; Robert came back dying.

One other thought... We can solve two major nitpick issues in one fell swoop:

Name Roz's left boob "Shaggydog" and her right boob "Grey wind." That way the "where's all the direwolves?' questions can go away, because you'll see them every episode.

Just so.

Absolutely wonderful first post. Love the ideas about Shaggy and Grey Wind.

[Brewmaster]

As far as I know (and I live in wolf country) wolves do not bark like Ghost did in the episode. The howl, as you say, and growl and make other similar noises, but the don't really go "woof, woof, woof".

But it's a minor nit to pick. Perhaps direwolves do bark? At any rate, the bigger problem would be that Ghost isn't supposed to make any sound at all.

Wolves and dogs are genetically the same animal. Of course they bark. Over centuries we domesticated them and bred specific breeds that look vastly different from each other, but they are still genetically the same species capable of interbreeding. Barking isn't something we introduced by selective breeding.