[Book Spoilers] EP107 Discussion

[theMountainGoat]

I think my biggest problem with this episode is what it did not include and its a very small innocuous scene - Ned having breakfast with Arya and Sansa on the morning right before he learns Robert is dead. Ned tells them their ship leaves later that day and he wants them packed and ready to go. Arya says she has already packed and can she have one last lesson with Syrio before they go. After this Sansa still upset about being made to leave runs off and runs away from the Septa [takes place off screen] and I agree with those who said we should not have seen her go to Cersei because that would tip off the surprise a little, but surely we should have at least seen her run off.

This scene is important because it establishes why the girls are still in the city and where they are and what they are doing when the shit hits the fan. Many TV viewers think the girls are gone, well on their way back to Winterfell because in the world of TV if you say they are being sent home one week and then you don't show them in the episode the next week they are effectively gone. How are they going to explain this in episode 8? Will we rewind time to before Ned's arrest? A caption saying "one hour earlier" perhaps which would really take me out of the flow of the show. Or maybe just jump straight into Arya's scene with Syrio and expect the audience to catch up to what is going on without any explanation at all?

Also when Arya goes to the stables and finds her bags there, pulls out Needle and uses the pointy end on the stable boy is it going to make sense why her bags are there? Is she going to say "ah my bags are here from when I packed them earlier, I hope my sword is still here?" Which would be clumsy exposition. Perhaps she will just have Needle with her when she is training with Syrio or she will retrieve it from her room in the Tower of the Hand instead. Lots of ways round it but I can see it being confusing if that scene does play out as described in the book and there is no explanation given.

Even more worrying is the suggestion someone made that perhaps Sansa did not tip off Cersei about Ned's plans which be a significant change from the book events. Plausible enough that Cersei could figure it out without Sansa's help but will this be what we are complaining about next week? And with George having written episode 8 will we still complain that the details are different?

[tarantella]

Speaking of things that were left out. We left the Wall in ep 4 with Jon and Sam hanging around on guard duty, and Sam afraid that Ser Alliser is going to keep beating the hell out of him in "training". Then we return in ep 7 and he's going to be a steward, and he's totally fine. People who read the book know that Jon went and asked Aemon to take him in, but non-readers are just going to guess Sam got lucky on the draw or something. Not a major thing, really, but the chapter they left out shows that Jon is willing to step outside the usual boundaries to help his friends out, and it's nicely mirrored later on when Sam does the same for him in ASOS.

I also see they're staying true to the books and taking the "Ser Alliser is a total dick" route. I thought they might try to make him more sympathetic. I don't mind, but they didn't set up his grudge against Jon that well.

[malek]

I actually didn't like Tywin skinning the animal. Btw Was that a dear, and bit of symbolism in all that ?

Still, I never pictured him as someone who would get his hands "dirty" in such a way.

Would also loved if they kept him with shaved head and sideburns, as it was perfectly described in the books why it showcase his character.

[evanesco75]

Well, Jon already went beyond the usual boundaries when he threatened Rast with Ghost for Sam.

[tarantella]

Well, Jon already went beyond the usual boundaries when he threatened Rast with Ghost for Sam.

Yeah, that's true. Again, not a major thing, but it still feels like they left a hole there.

[wolverine]

I actually didn't like Tywin skinning the animal. Btw Was that a dear, and bit of symbolism in all that ?

It appeared to be a red deer or something similar Red Deer, which in the U.S. would be most similar to an elk.

[malek]

It appeared to be a red deer or something similar Red Deer, which in the U.S. would be most similar to an elk.

Cheers mate ^_^

[smidget25]

Wow, despite my low expectations the sexposition scene still managed to amaze me with its terribleness. First of all, it's getting old; Viserys in the bath and Renly/Loras were clever, but there's only so many times you can recycle the same sex = politics metaphor. Second, the sex threatened to overshadow the exposition. Loud screams and "Play with her ass"?? Were the script writers all 15 year boys? It's getting to the point where I'm embarrassed to watch GoT with friends.

Fortunately the rest of the episode was all pretty good.

Interesting change in the Renly/Ned scene. Having Renly say he wanted the throne himself makes Ned's refusal of his offer seem much more reasonable. It's a big change from the books, where Renly was only proposing cutting Cersei out. I don't really mind it though. Makes Ned a bit more sympathetic, while also foreshadowing Renly's campaign. Like others said, the actual dialogue doesn't really make sense, but I think everyone got the idea.

Drogo's speech was great. If you just described the scene, it would sound ridiculous and cheesy, but it worked.

I agree with everything you said here. The Ned/Renly scene did seem a bit strange in that they tried to keep the dialogue the same as the books, despite Renly's motivations being different. It made it sound like they were having two separate conversations. But I think it was necessary for them to include Renly wanting the throne (unlike the book), so it wouldn't come out of nowhere when he tries to claim it later. I remember reading that bit in the GOT and being like, 'Huh. Why?' :stunned: They've actually given Renly some motivation and have foreshadowed his upcoming part well.

I didn't like this exposition either. I was paying more attention to the sex scene than what LF was talking about, whereas in other cases (Loras/Renly, Viserys) I thought it was very cleverly done. They should have cut it down a bit, or including less of the random sex tutorial. And seriously, why Roz?! How is she relevant? :dunno:

[So1ar]

why does dany's belly not even look like she's pregnant yet? i can't remember exactly how she loses her son, but doesn't she give birth to him?

[Morrigan]

Yeah, that annoyed me a bit. Will we ever see her with a pregnant-looking belly?

I liked Jon in the books but in the show he's a whinny little dick.

His father is fighting for his life and all Jon can say is, "Wah, wah, I didn't get into my favourite class!" Lame!

Well, you're being unfair. At that point in the story, Jon doesn't know what's happening with his father Ned. Hell, in the book's timeline, when Jon takes his vow, Ned hadn't even been arrested yet.

[Steel_Wind]

Funny little quote here...in ASOS after Jon becomes LC, Pyp says, "Sam, Sam, Sam the Wizard, Sam the wonder..."

Coincidence?

Clearly not.

[Steel_Wind]

why does dany's belly not even look like she's pregnant yet? i can't remember exactly how she loses her son, but doesn't she give birth to him?

Given the clothing choice they've gone for Daenerys, it's quite problematic. Ordinarily, an actress would wear a prosthetic underpadding beneath a maternity style top/dress/garment -- but the choice of wardrobe Dany has as a Dothraki since she "went native" won't permit such a prosthetic as it is not capable of hiding it.

I would, accordingly, guess that we will be getting a "miscarriage" as opposed to a "still birth replete with grave worms" etc.. As such, I would further expect that the Mother of Dragons will not be suckling her "progeny", either.

[Jaxom 1974]

Yeah, one thing that's clear is the HBO series knows the characters.

Is it wrong when he declared "I should be king" to Ned, I chuckled? Was definitely a Yeah, you go ahead and do that moment.

The sense I get from the TV series is that if Renly is Ned's last great hope in Kings Landing, he was fucked from the beginning.

See, if they knew the characters so well (and I kinda agree they do with one main exception), Renly wouldn't have been so altered. In the book, Renly is the half of Robert that is all bluster and confidence (as we learn Stannis is the steel and brawn that was the other half of Robert in ACOK). In the seies, Renly is the complete opposite.

Catelyn describes Renly's host as the "knights of summer" playing at war. Renly never knew what he truly wanted. The spoiled, impulsive young lord who felt entitled...the added scene with Loras in the show gives us a timid, unsure youth who has to be told what to do by his younger boyfriend (another disappointment in that you have to work the relationship out in the book, the show just bludgeons you with it).

Rockroi quotes the scene with Ned and that Renly is far superior to the show Renly.

How dare you, sir. Renly is majestic:

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8094/renlymajestic.jpg

Oh snap.

I completely disagree. As somebody who barely registered who Renly was in the first book (although I did come to like him in the second), I feel the change is really refreshing. It's nice not to have a man who goes around swinging a sword, speaking of war and/or screwing people over. The scene with Loras set up him approaching Ned in a way that it never did in the book - which came completely out of the left field when I read it. It actually gave him some genuine motivation.

As I say though, the show's portrayal of Renly misses the entire point of the character.

[Ser Warpechowski]

I actually didn't like Tywin skinning the animal. Btw Was that a dear, and bit of symbolism in all that ?

Still, I never pictured him as someone who would get his hands "dirty" in such a way.

Would also loved if they kept him with shaved head and sideburns, as it was perfectly described in the books why it showcase his character.

Well, he said he hated whores, yet there was Shae on his bed...

[Lady Blackfish]

I liked the Tywin and Jaime scene overall. At the beginning of the season I was most excited about the casting of the Lannister men, and so far that is panning out. Granted, Dance's Tywin came off as a little more demonstrative with his pride and condescension than I imagined, but overall there was a lot to like in that scene. I feel like this show very clearly gets and enjoys some characters more than others, and I think the Lannisters tend to be on the advantageous side of that preference. I could tolerate the blatant obviousness of the stag symbolism because of how well the actors played off each other. It was interesting how they solidly characterized Tywin's retaliation as a dynastic power play this early on; it's debatable and ambiguous in the book.

I liked Cersei's talk with Ned well enough, although I'm still not sure if I like this Cersei who worshiped Robert once. Is she now going to be head over heels for both Robert and Rhaegar? I liked Headey's delivery of her "Your sister was a corpse" line, while at the same time I missed the book's more fiery and exuding Cersei more than ever in this scene.

The brothel scene with Littlefinger and the whores was terrible and absurd and I hated it.

I'm really enjoying Sumpter so much as Luwin, and think that the Wall arc with Jon and Sam is another thing HBO is doing uniformly well. Mind you, I also think that's one of the easier storylines to get right, it's pretty simplistic and archetypal compared to what else is going on.

I thought Robert's death was a bit anticlimactic, but not bad. I wished we could see the moment of his death. Also, Ned has really pretty penmanship!

Thirding? the love for Iain Glenn. I always found Jorah very interesting in the books and I'm glad Glenn is making me as interested as him in the show.

Still need to think more about the changes to Renly. I think I don't mind us seeing more doubts in him, as we saw previously, and I actually disagree that he was only ever Robert's blustery side. He had Robert's swagger but in a more moderate dose, even though humility was never his strong suit, and I can see seeds of his character as presented in the show there in the book. Renly was never a soldier, the book points out that he was only ever a passing fighter, but he had power of charisma as well as a suitable enough sense of duty and fairmindedness. He was not without cleverness and while he had a certain carelessness about him, I found it believable that in time he could grow up to be a pretty good king. The show's Renly seems to be the voice of anti-machoness, and while I can see why it bothers some people or strikes them as out of character, I can't mind it too much because, damn, I really like this Renly. I want to be his best friend after the way he chewed Robert out in the last episode.

ETA: Oh I forgot to mention, I think the show did Ned a disservice by not emphasizing the massacre of Rhaegar's children before the end of this episode, I think it would've made Ned's choice more sympathetic, if still politically unwise. Most people seem to be having a hair-ripping-out experience with Ned in this episode, while I think it would've better served his character if we could at least understand that his honor is, from a certain perspective, understandable and not totally removed from reality. Children torn screaming from their beds is no small thing, and Ned's choice would've seemed more difficult instead of so obviously dumb.

[Rhodan]

While the show is awsome, sometimes I think it is on drugs. Jorah doubting existence of dragons was definitely one such moment. Is he "fall of the 6 kingdoms to Aegon was an inside job" conspiracist?

I must say that I simply disliked meeting of Eddard and Cersei. With it´s typical adaptational simplification it was tense as married couple bickering about wife spending too much money.

Lack of Jon pleading for Sam wasn´t bad just becouse of understanding of Sam´s story on the Wall, but also becouse I think Aemon needs more screen time.

These nitpicks aside, I liked the episode - I don´t mind Renly coming out... With his desire of being the king. It makes the things a little quickier.

BTW, I am curious if Martin will give us some info dumps about Rheagar´s children or Stannis, we seriously need it.

[Brienne the Beauty]

The show's Renly seems to be the voice of anti-machoness, and while I can see why it bothers some people or strikes them as out of character, I can't mind it too much because, damn, I really like this Renly. I want to be his best friend after the way he chewed Robert out in the last episode.

I like him too, a lot better than Book-Renly who was really just there to act frivolous and get killed. When nice-guy TV Renly dies, it's going to have a lot more impact simply because he's more likeable.

[smegma]

I actually like both book Renly and tv Renly a lot. Perhaps it's because I filled in the blanks a bit the same way that the HBO show has done, but I always envisioned book Renly as the one most suited for the throne, and the show tells us why he's a good fit (or at least wants to be a good king). I also liked the smackdown of Renly on Robert, as the three major scenes with him - Loras/Renly, Robert/Renly, and Ned/Renly all created a solid perspective on his thought process and WHY he decides to do what he does. I felt like the scene with Robert showed him letting off steam with thoughts that had been eating at him for some time, and the scene with Ned showed him kind of putting it all together in his head and finally speaking it out loud. Kinda rambling, but anyway my point is that I think that both versions are likable. I also think we may see more of the charismatic Renly once he is putting on his show for the hordes that follow him.

[Tywin's bastard]

Lack of Jon pleading for Sam wasn´t bad just becouse of understanding of Sam´s story on the Wall, but also becouse I think Aemon needs more screen time.

That part would also make viewers ask why Sam wasn't considered for such an assignment in the first place though. The Night's Watch is a shadow of what it should be but it's not because the leaders are incompetent enough to put a very physically ungifted and mentally weak person in the rangers or something like that. It should be natural to put him with the maester, in the kitchens or something like that.

BTW, I am curious if Martin will give us some info dumps about Rheagar´s children or Stannis, we seriously need it.

We'll see, but I doubt it. Rhaegar's children (and wife) aren't very important in the first two seasons (I'd put in more information about Rhaegar himself before his family) and we didn't get too much information about Stannis in the book either. They might talk about what he's doing a bit but I expect most of the info about him coming in the next season as the last three episodes should be quite packed with events.

[Rhodan]

That part would also make viewers ask why Sam wasn't considered for such an assignment in the first place though. The Night's Watch is a shadow of what it should be but it's not because the leaders are incompetent enough to put a very physically ungifted and mentally weak person in the rangers or something like that. It should be natural to put him with the maester, in the kitchens or something like that.

I think in the book it is explained quite well - problem is that Sam is spoiled aristocratic kid, who wouldn´t be even good majordomus in general. He was worthy only as scholar/Aemon´s asssistent, so Chett had to go.