[Book Spoilers] EP107 Discussion

[legba11]

Mya (and others), my only problem with the two scenes (Tywin and LF) were they were too long. They both really seemed excessive to me (especially the LF one). The same could have been established in half the time. This would have allowed more time for Robert's death. This is the king, the #1 guy in "The Game". He deserved more time for his death. We don't even see see Tommen and Mycella saying their goodbyes. People are going to forget they exist, and soon enough they are both going to be propped up for the throne. They could have also established Donal Noye (is that his name?) is still in King's Landing and getting his prisoners. He has been gone fore 2 weeks now. I also would have added a brief scene with Arya and Needle and Syrio.

This was the first episode where I felt they were stretching scenes to reach their 50? minutes, rather than rushing through them to get everything in. Neither is ideal, but stretching is usually worse than rushing.

[Volderon]

Maester Luwin constantly owns Theon every episode with one-liners, I love it.

"And failed rebellions."

"Are the two mutually exclusive in your experience?"

LOL.

I liked Jon in the books but in the show he's a whinny little dick.

His father is fighting for his life and all Jon can say is, "Wah, wah, I didn't get into my favourite class!" Lame!

[Andhaira]

This was arguably the weakest episode of this season (yet). Tywin's introduction was off. It was a bad idea to have him skin a stag, symbolism be damned. Tywin Lannister does NOT get his hands dirty. Period.

Ned's betrayal was ok. Glad they showed the Hound killing Ned's men. I just hope that we see Selmy fight in the next episode, instead of just hearing about it.

[Mad Queen]

Tywin Lannister does NOT get his hands dirty. Period.

I agree. He sends Gregor Clegane and Walder Frey to do his butchering for him. 'Too proud to shit.'

[NW Deserter]

Tywin Lannister does NOT get his hands dirty. Period.

Apparently we came away from the books with drastically different ideas of Tywin's character.

[shadow of death]

Baelish has as much designs on the Iron Throne as anyone else. Heck this was even illustrated a couple of episodes with him standing and staring at the empty throne. He doesn't have much money.... and NO army.... but he does have incredible sway over weak willed women. He is marrying (and murdering) his way to many lands and titles. Obviously Sansa and the North is next for him. I imagine after that it could be Asha Greyjoy.

I think in the end Arya runs him through... at least I hope so!

I think in the end it will be Sansa that takes care of Littlefinger. She has been getting smarter and smarter in every book. She will become a very good "player" of the game just by watching littlefinger. His love for her will blind him and eventually she will want revenge.

[QueenOfThorns]

Maester Luwin constantly owns Theon every episode with one-liners, I love it.

"And failed rebellions."

"Are the two mutually exclusive in your experience?"

LOL.

I liked Jon in the books but in the show he's a whinny little dick.

His father is fighting for his life and all Jon can say is, "Wah, wah, I didn't get into my favourite class!" Lame!

I agree. I think the decision to age the characters is very troublesome in this area. Jon is, what, fourteen in GoT? The whininess in the books is appropriate for that age, but when they add about 5 years to his character in the show, he comes across as a prick.

[The Brandon Stark]

I agree. I think the decision to age the characters is very troublesome in this area. Jon is, what, fourteen in GoT? The whininess in the books is appropriate for that age, but when they add about 5 years to his character in the show, he comes across as a prick.

Disagree completely.

First he finds out the Wall is place full of robbers, rapists and elderly men. Not exactly the honor he was expecting. He deals with it, makes friends, accepts his role to only have it once again pulled out from under him. He should be a ranger, not a servant. Even at nineteen, still tough to swallow. And he gets over that quick enough too.

[NW Deserter]

I think some of you forgot what it was like to be a young adult. In modern society, 19 is the age where you feel like you can take on the world and be invincible, and Jon is like that too. His first big life lesson just hit him and knocked him down a peg, and with the ego of 19-year-old being what it is, that's a heavy blow. If anything, Jon's aging up makes his behavior even more realistic, or at least in terms of modern society.

[QueenOfThorns]

Disagree completely.

First he finds out the Wall is place full of robbers, rapists and elderly men. Not exactly the honor he was expecting. He deals with it, makes friends, accepts his role to only have it once again pulled out from under him. He should be a ranger, not a servant. Even at nineteen, still tough to swallow. And he gets over that quick enough too.

From a modern-day perspective, yes. However, a 19-year-old in the setting of the book is often married with children. A 19-year-old should know to ask uncle Benjen more about the wall before agreeing to it. A 14-year-old would have a hard time letting go of his perceptions (kind of like Sansa) even if he's told the truth of life on the wall. Additionally, in the book, we see the best of Jon Snow when he arranges for an early oathtaking for Sam, and a steward position. We don't see that maturity in the chronologically more-mature Jon Snow on screen.

[Arrogant Bastard]

Mya (and others), my only problem with the two scenes (Tywin and LF) were they were too long. They both really seemed excessive to me (especially the LF one). The same could have been established in half the time. This would have allowed more time for Robert's death. This is the king, the #1 guy in "The Game". He deserved more time for his death. We don't even see see Tommen and Mycella saying their goodbyes. People are going to forget they exist, and soon enough they are both going to be propped up for the throne. They could have also established Donal Noye (is that his name?) is still in King's Landing and getting his prisoners. He has been gone fore 2 weeks now. I also would have added a brief scene with Arya and Needle and Syrio.

This was the first episode where I felt they were stretching scenes to reach their 50? minutes, rather than rushing through them to get everything in. Neither is ideal, but stretching is usually worse than rushing.

It's Yoren in King's Landing looking for prisoners. I don't think it's necessary at all to show him in King's Landing, it's already been established he's there for prisoners. He will still show up at the right moment like in the book, and it will be explained why he didn't leave earlier. Arya and Syrio just had a scene last episode and will certainly have a scene next episode, there's really no reason in my opinion for this episode to have them also; it would have messed with the pacing. I don't think that Robert's death needed more screen time, but I wish they had shown Ned and Robert being closer in that scene.

[Volderon]

I think some of you forgot what it was like to be a young adult. In modern society, 19 is the age where you feel like you can take on the world and be invincible, and Jon is like that too. His first big life lesson just hit him and knocked him down a peg, and with the ego of 19-year-old being what it is, that's a heavy blow. If anything, Jon's aging up makes his behavior even more realistic, or at least in terms of modern society.

I am a young adult and his response is completely immature, atleast to me. So what, he will still be going into battle with the LC. Jon didn't use his brain and think about it, he just whined because, "I'm the bastard, I'm better at swords and riding a horse than any of you, it's not fair!" Grow up you brat. It's the Night's Watch, it's not a vacation.

[NW Deserter]

he just whined because, "I'm the bastard, I'm better at swords and riding a horse than any of you, it's not fair!" Grow up you brat. It's the Night's Watch, it's not a vacation.

Well yeah, that's the whole point.

He thought being a bastard of a high lord was tough, when in reality he was well-loved by just about everyone (except Cat), well fed, trained by the best in the North, safe, and generally pretty coddled. Now that he's in a more "typical" environment for a common bastard, he has to adjust his worldviews a lot. The whole point is that he is a brat initially.

[Arya The Assassin]

Overall a good episode, although not as exciting as episode 6, I think.

Cool:

• The introduction of Tywin Lannister. I was looking forward to seeing Charles Dance as Tywin, and I wasn't disappointed. I also liked the way the scene was directed: Instead of having a static scene with two actors standing (or sitting for that matter), they had Tywin skin a stag (which, incidentally, also represents the sigil of House Baratheon -- the symbolic overtones are clear) while he talked with his son. My only criticism is that after reading the books I'd expected Tywin's first scene to be with Tyrion, not Jamie.
• Robert's deathbed scene. I've not been too ecstatic about Mark Addy's performance as the king, but I think he was quite good here.
• Ghost returns with the hand.
• James Cosmo as Jeor Mormont! He played a memorable character in Braveheart.
• Momoa's performance as Drogo announces his decision to invade Westeros.
• The last throne room scene. Nice cliffhanger.
• The set decoration and production design in general. It looks great.

Not so cool:

• The 'lesbian' scene. The scene was too long and started to drag. In general, I think Littlefinger is getting too much screentime. And there's something about Aidan Gillen's take on Littlefinger that doesn't quite 'jibe' with me. The girl who plays Ros, Esme Bianco, is quite easy on the eyes, though, both with and without clothes.
• No Arya :(

EDIT: Fixed typos

[Tywin's bastard]

From a modern-day perspective, yes. However, a 19-year-old in the setting of the book is often married with children. A 19-year-old should know to ask uncle Benjen more about the wall before agreeing to it. A 14-year-old would have a hard time letting go of his perceptions (kind of like Sansa) even if he's told the truth of life on the wall. Additionally, in the book, we see the best of Jon Snow when he arranges for an early oathtaking for Sam, and a steward position. We don't see that maturity in the chronologically more-mature Jon Snow on screen.

Where do you get the age of 19 from? Eddard rode off to war 17 years previous to the series. It also takes 9 months between conception and birth so it's even a strain to put him at the age of 17 (and if the speculations are true Jon was born after the war ended).

Jon is obviously aged up 2-3 years, which is about the same as the rest of the children.

[QueenOfThorns]

Where do you get the age of 19 from? Eddard rode off to war 17 years previous to the series. It also takes 9 months between conception and birth so it's even a strain to put him at the age of 17 (and if the speculations are true Jon was born after the war ended).

Jon is obviously aged up 2-3 years, which is about the same as the rest of the children.

My bad, in my original post I said he seemed aged "about 5 years" and everyone ran with it, so I did too. I'm just judging by facial hair LOL, and Robb seems older than 16-17 in the show as well. Ned Stark seems to have been aged at least 10 years (supposedly 34-ish in the book). I don't think the aging is across-the-board 2-3 years. Dany seems to have been aged more than 2-3 years as well. I don't think the show can be held to the same hardcore chronology that the books can. Jon Snow, to me, looks older than 16-17 in the show. I believe the actor who plays him is mid-20s, so whatever age they say Jon Snow is in the series, he looks like a full-grown man, so should not be acting like a child in my eyes at least, which is probably why his whininess seems so inappropriate to me. In that case, it's a casting error, but since I like the dude playing him (and he's easy on the eyes LOL) I'll let it slide :)

[legba11]

Tywin has lesser people do foul deeds. Butchering an animal you hunted and killed is no such task.

Getting your hands dirty can have two meanings:

1. Doing the hard work necessary. We use this expression all the time in school as a positive thing. Tywin definetly does this. Jaime was unwilling to do this in regards to Tyrion's abduction.

2. Doing immoral or criminal acts. Tywin does not do this. He has others do it for him. Jaime did this when he attacked Ned on the streets.

Jaime has failed on both regards (in Tywin's view). This is establishing his relationship with his children. They all want the love and respect of the great Tywin Lannister. Sadly, they all see the failed reflections of themselves when he looks at them. Tywin loved two people and now one of them is dead.

[Faint]

What was changed? Cersei got one of Ned's lines, I think, but other than that, it was nearly word for word from the book?

They basically did away with Cersei offering herself to Ned.

I think this is problematic in many respects, none more so than it makes Cersei appear to be wholly faithful to Jaime when that isn't even the case back in AGoT. It's clear very early on that she is willing to use her body for advancement even then. It makes me worry about her character going forward as well. I'm starting to question whether she will sleep with Lancel in the show and so forth. Part of me thinks the writers wanted viewers to sympathize with her and including the offer to Ned would have made her seem like a whore but I think it has now go to the point where they're fundamentally changing who the character is. Not that she's a whore, because I've never thought of her like that, but that's she willing to do whatever it takes to achieve her objectives and in the male dominated society she lives in, using her body is one of the few weapons allowed to her.

Edit: Cersei is one of my favorite characters, perhaps even my very favorite, so I tend to focus in on her to the exclusion of others. As many have pointed out, it's not even clear she is the most changed character from the books.

[Frensynko]

Tywin has lesser people do foul deeds. Butchering an animal you hunted and killed is no such task.

Getting your hands dirty can have two meanings:

1. Doing the hard work necessary. We use this expression all the time in school as a positive thing. Tywin definetly does this. Jaime was unwilling to do this in regards to Tyrion's abduction.

2. Doing immoral or criminal acts. Tywin does not do this. He has others do it for him. Jaime did this when he attacked Ned on the streets.

Jaime has failed on both regards (in Tywin's view). This is establishing his relationship with his children. They all want the love and respect of the great Tywin Lannister. Sadly, they all see the failed reflections of themselves when he looks at them. Tywin loved two people and now one of them is dead.

Maybe we happened to catch Tywin in rare form that day.

[Ghost of Crackclaw]

I must say, the mileage we're getting out of non-standard scenes has been tremendous thus far. They've expanded the vision of the books in elegant and surprising ways much of the time.

But as far as I'm concerned, Aidan Gillen can go hang. I didn't think I'd be ready to dislike any of the actors this early on, and he started out initially promising. But his interpretation of Littlefinger--and I'm not even talking about the writing, just the delivery--has fallen so very flat. This episode in particular sealed it for me.

First world problems, I guess :)