[Book Spoilers] EP107 Discussion

[The Anti-Targ]

30,000 men is a ridiculously large number of soldiers to have at Jaime's disposal considering Tywin will be retaining a large host under his own command.

Makes the threat of Dothraki invasion seem rather managable if it's only 40,000 and one House can muster a larger army. Jaime taking 5-10,000 would have made the Dothraki horde seem more horde-ish.

However as there are Houses who would still like to see the Targs restored I suppose those houses knowing Dany was returning with 40,000 of her own would embolden those Targ loyalists (Dorne at the very least) to rise up and rebel, thus swelling their ranks. We also know that at least some houses have no great qualms about raping and pillaging, so havign the Dotraki do it wouldn't be all shock horror war crime to Westerosi sensibilities.

It's all academic of course, given how the book ends but still One armyu of 40,000 doesn't seem like much of a threat after the Tywin/Jaime scene.

[Jaime L]

I must say, the mileage we're getting out of non-standard scenes has been tremendous thus far. They've expanded the vision of the books in elegant and surprising ways much of the time.

Yeah, one thing that's clear is the HBO series knows the characters. Think they've already pulled off a Robert-Cersei relationship that is more rueful and nuanced than the portrayal we get to see in the books. Think the Tywin-Jaime scene was also a necessary scene because it not only cuts right through Jaime's typical bluster but it reveals the principled hardness of Tywin. The series is committed to showing, rather than telling...I presume this is why we still haven't had any flashbacks. And what's the alternative? Tyrion meeting up with Tywin at his camp and as the camera pans in on Tyrion, he narrates Wonder Years style about how Tywin wasn't a man who believed in half measures...? Show us how the man cows his Golden Boy son and then be entertained as he doesn't bat an eyelash when his other dwarf son rides up as king of the mountain clans.

I think I've found Renly to be my biggest cating/character developing issue. He has none of the self confidence of the novels and the added scene of him and Loras just took away even more of the characters ambiguity and potential...

Is it wrong when he declared "I should be king" to Ned, I chuckled? Was definitely a Yeah, you go ahead and do that moment.

The sense I get from the TV series is that if Renly is Ned's last great hope in Kings Landing, he was fucked from the beginning.

[Tywin's bastard]

30,000 men is a ridiculously large number of soldiers to have at Jaime's disposal considering Tywin will be retaining a large host under his own command.

Makes the threat of Dothraki invasion seem rather managable if it's only 40,000 and one House can muster a larger army. Jaime taking 5-10,000 would have made the Dothraki horde seem more horde-ish.

However as there are Houses who would still like to see the Targs restored I suppose those houses knowing Dany was returning with 40,000 of her own would embolden those Targ loyalists (Dorne at the very least) to rise up and rebel, thus swelling their ranks. We also know that at least some houses have no great qualms about raping and pillaging, so havign the Dotraki do it wouldn't be all shock horror war crime to Westerosi sensibilities.

It's all academic of course, given how the book ends but still One armyu of 40,000 doesn't seem like much of a threat after the Tywin/Jaime scene.

They don't know how many people there are in Khal Drogo's horde. When Robert mentions the number 40 000 he's just making a hypothetical scenario (although making the relevant point about that Westerosi armies aren't all made up of real soldiers, while the Dothraki are all warriors). When he and Eddard first discusses a possible invasion Robert tells Ned that it's said that Drogo has 100 000 men in his horde.

[Wras]

They don't know how many people there are in Khal Drogo's horde. When Robert mentions the number 40 000 he's just making a hypothetical scenario (although making the relevant point about that Westerosi armies aren't all made up of real soldiers, while the Dothraki are all warriors). When he and Eddard first discusses a possible invasion Robert tells Ned that it's said that Drogo has 100 000 men in his horde.

Doesn't Viserys and/or Jorah also say 40,000 at one point?

[ENikolai]

Is it wrong when he declared "I should be king" to Ned, I chuckled? Was definitely a Yeah, you go ahead and do that moment.

How dare you, sir. Renly is majestic:

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8094/renlymajestic.jpg

[Knight Of The North]

They don't know how many people there are in Khal Drogo's horde. When Robert mentions the number 40 000 he's just making a hypothetical scenario (although making the relevant point about that Westerosi armies aren't all made up of real soldiers, while the Dothraki are all warriors). When he and Eddard first discusses a possible invasion Robert tells Ned that it's said that Drogo has 100 000 men in his horde.

Adding onto this, it's gently implied by Robert's speech to Cersei that the Dothraki could probably beat the Westerosi Armies on an open field, numbers being not a problem. I don't have a transcript to hand, but he pretty much states that they'd hide in the castles instantly.

Also, a Dothraki Army is ALL horseback. Most of a Westerosi Army is untrained arrow fodder.

[Maid of Styrner Stuff]

I loved, loved, loved this episode!! Had to comment with this, my first post ever.

I've adored Charles Dance, a truly elegant man and fine actor, for years. Makes NCW appear a callow youth. (With BROWN hair.)

What surprised me most was the similarity in the appearance of these two actors who could so easily be related in RL. Perfect casting IMHO. And perfect acting in a well-written scene. Bravo to the writers and actors. To ALL of them, all excellent.

Re: LF'S Brothel Lesson – I've become resigned and cynical about the abundance of noodlety and T & A in this TV series. We must pay the HBO piper and the piper has a rep to keep as a premiere channel. In the overall scheme, it is a small price to pay, and may even lighten a dark series and/or provide the occasional puerile interest.

And in this scene, by combining the sucky sex with needed (??) exposition, sex as background music appears less offensive. Yes, I'm sick of her, too, but Roz fills the role of the Other Actor w/Distracting Frontal Charms when a male character needs to expound without context. That premiere scene with Tyrion's Bed o' Boobies, then the subsequent and various floppy parts, and now a fleeting (fleeing) twat makes me think the sex in this series will be routinely offered more than in the books, though tastefully placed. One can only hope.

What I found strange, as someone previously mentioned, was why LF had his Pimp Headquarters in the brothel seraglio, and why his madam/manager wasn't handling the newbie instruction when LF's day job is Crown CFO. He claims several prosperous establishments. Tantamount to finding Cersei counting kettles in the kitchen while she righteously explains to the scullery personnel why she loathes her dwarf brother.

But I can still see the sense of Lord Tywin butchering his own deer, a relaxing way to end a successful hunt, and I imagine he hunts from horseback with hounds, not stumbling through the woods on two legs like Robert and his buds, waiting for the boar to find HIM. Surprise! All that was missing to put a Pythonesque touch to the scene was (as previously and hilariously suggested) Lancel clapping his coconuts together. Yes, I got that, too!

One small mention that's been already made on the locked discussion: "Could have cared less"....... As an American, I despise this crappy grammar which identifies the speaker as 1.) a contemporary Yank, and B.) a moron. We need no reminders that Jaime's a callow jerk. Let's hope the producers correct this before the episode is enshrined in the DVD.

I am so grateful for this series and will dutifully pay my dues to HBO if they will continue to produce it. At most any price it is a gift to have received it in my lifetime, almost as much as are the source pages penned by the genius GRRM. Just freakin' thrilling!!!! I couldn't ask for a better, more brilliant production, and I feel craven to be whining about any of it. I don't buy DVDs, but I'll buy those when they're offered.

[Jaime L]

How dare you, sir. Renly is majestic:

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8094/renlymajestic.jpg

I have completely misjudged the man.

I don't care what the books say. This is the dude that's winning the Iron Throne.

[smidget25]

I think I've found Renly to be my biggest cating/character developing issue. He has none of the self confidence of the novels and the added scene of him and Loras just took away even more of the characters ambiguity and potential...

I completely disagree. As somebody who barely registered who Renly was in the first book (although I did come to like him in the second), I feel the change is really refreshing. It's nice not to have a man who goes around swinging a sword, speaking of war and/or screwing people over. The scene with Loras set up him approaching Ned in a way that it never did in the book - which came completely out of the left field when I read it. It actually gave him some genuine motivation.

And in regards to their potential, I think it sets up a nice dynamic for their relationship that can be developed in season 2. The series is severely lacking couples who actually seem to care about each other (particularly after the whole Ned thing at the end of GOT), and so I can't wait to see it unfold. I felt the scene has added to both characters, who are very much in the background in the books.

[Tywin's bastard]

Doesn't Viserys and/or Jorah also say 40,000 at one point?

Yes, you're probably be correct on that one as it does ring a bell. Still most of the Dothraki are probably near the elite of the Westerosi armies, given that they live for war and are all mounted.

How dare you, sir. Renly is majestic:

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8094/renlymajestic.jpg

Robert was visually very "majestic" in his prime and we all know how much that meant when it came to his qualities as a king. Being a big, strong and handsome guy is quite far down on the list on what makes a good king and regardless of his qualities the only ones supporting Renly are the ones with a ton to gain. What we see in ACOK is Renly going around feasting with everyone supporting him, without caring that he gives his enemies time, so it doesn't seem like he was that different from Robert after all (Robert the king that is, Robert was definitely a better conquerer), although the one in the show might be.

[theMountainGoat]

Gonna be quicker to list the things I did like this week:

1. Liked the opening scene with Tywin butchering the stag. Charles Dance perfectly cast.

2. You Win or You Die. Great scene.

3. All the bits with Dany this week and Drogo's awesome speech.

4. The final scene played out perfectly.

But I fucking hated every single other scene this week. I know I should not let minor nitpicks bother me but they do because they make the show less good than it should be. And as for Littlefinger's revealing far too much exposition scene with pointless gratuitous lesbian sex. For. Fuck. Sake. I'm sure it's already been discussed to death here but man that scene made me livid. It definitely ruined the way I feel about this episode.

[Ser Kevan Raley]

The tension is ramping up. From now on things will irrevocably definitely change. Some notes:

• It was a somewhat bold move to have an episode without favourites such as Tyrion and Arya, but it held up nonetheless.
  
• Come to think of it, there was no Catelyn, Bran or Sansa either.
  
• The vast Lannister host looked very nifty. They are obviously preparing for war and a march towards the yet unnamed Riverrun.
  
• Very cool showing Lord Tywin gutting a stag, even if it perhaps was a bit of too obvious in its symbolism.
  
• I liked Charles Dance as Tywin, even if he didn't have the huge sideburns.
  
• Clearly the Lannister name, its standing and reputation, is all that matters to Tywin. And the thing is, he's not really wrong. Had they not taken action, no one would respect their house in the future.
  
• I also liked the talk between Ned and Cersei, even if it was not in the godswood. But Ned is just so stupid and honourable spilling the beans like that. No change from the book. It is also evident that it was this event that prompted Cersei's action, not Sansa telling her. Sansa wasn't even in this episode. People blame poor Sansa for a lot of things but generally Ned gets of the hook just because he's honourable, whereas Sansa is deemed a selfish bitch. I'm not excusing what Sansa did, but the real fault lies with Ned himself.
  
• "When you play the game of thrones you either win or die!" Heh!
  
• I'm getting a tad annoyed with Roz (or is it Ros?). It was obvious she was going to end up in King's Landing as one of Littlefinger's whores, and lo and behold there she is, making gratuitous lesbian sex for no reason. Just another excuse to have Littlefinger retell his story about his childhood infatuation and duel - and of course showing some nakedness. Now why would he even tell his whores something that personal and humiliating? A bit of foreshadowing though when he says he's going to f**k them, which he promptly does at the end of the episode. Still, Ros is pretty hot!
  
• Another added scene was the one with Theon and Osha that was actually an infodump about the Iron Islands and the Greyjoys.
  
• I liked Osha telling Theon that he was a southerner because everything south of the Wall is the south to her.
  
• I also liked Maester Luwin's line to Theon that being a guest and a prisoner is not mutually exclusive. Heh!
  
• It was a pity that all the hunting scene we got was the unsatisfactory one when King Robert and his small entourage walked in the woods in the previous episode. Now Robert is just back after his fatal injury. I get it would have been hard to film the actual wild boar incident, but seeing at least part of the hunt would have been nice.
  
• For that matter, Robert died off screen, which was also a bit disappointing, especially considering the big role he had up until then.
  
• I'm not sure why Varys apparently sent assassins to kill Daenerys when it was established that he conspired with Illyrio on behalf the Targaryens.
  
• I was expecting Dany to look a lot more pregnant. She's barely showing it here.
  
• Samwell has certainly grown (no pun intended) as a character. He's matured both when he speaks up in front of everyone about swearing his oath before the old gods and when he tells Jon Snow that it is a good thing being named the Lord Commander's steward.
  
• Still, if being groomed for command, Jon would have been better off getting some ranger experience before serving the LC. Well, at least he will get that in the future, although in a different manner.
  
• Yeah, Ned was as stupid here as in the book when he refused Renly's offer to stick with Stannis.
  
• A wolf doesn't bark, yet here we can clearly hear Ghost barking as he runs off when they come across the Wall. Maybe direwolves do?
  
• They do a nice job inventing the Dothraki language. Will this be the new "Klingon" among obsessive fans?
  
• Something seemed a bit off with Aidan Gillen's portrayal of Littlefinger in this episode. His delivery didn't feel as "real" as it has before.
  
• I had forgotten that Littlefinger actually pulled a knife at Ned's throat. It seemed out of character for him to get so physical, but then it's right there in the book as well.
  
• I wonder what non-readers thought about this surprising turn of events. Did they, like Ned, trust Littlefinger? Were they surprised at Robert's death and the failure of Ned's "coup"? Poor viewers, they ain't seen nothing yet!
  

[Ser Warpechowski]

One of the theme's in the series is that honour gets you nowhere. Men with honour only really find success when they team up with unhonourable people... see Jon with Samwell, Stannis with Davos, and Tyrion with Bronn.

But having no honour bears heavily on some people. Jamie eventually turns on Cersei in part because he cannot handle being held without honour by most men that have it. It was a bit understated in their brief scene together but Barristan despised Jamie for stabbing Aerys in the back.

Good lesson there.

Even if you´re honorable, you need someone to get his hands dirty.

It is the truth in real life and I guess its even more important in fantasy, specially one so violent.

Fortunaly most characters in GoT are shades of grey, and that is why the series is so good.

And I agree that Littlefinger´s actor isnt doing a very good job. Maybe he had pointers but his character is nowhere as interesting as in the book. Of course, he had the unfortunate mission to apear in a stupid sex scene, but...

[Isabella Stark]

A point I haven't seen anyone comment on (at least not in this thread, haven't read the other one):

It's fine that we missed the bit about Jon intervening on Sam's behalf and suggesting that he'd be a good assistant to Maester Aemon, but we haven't gotten any sense that Mormont observed Jon's leadership talents, etc. So I didn't think it was clear how Mormont spotted Jon's potential. The way it happened in this episode, it seems like he's singling out Jon simply because of his family. It would have been nice to get something of Mormont observing Jon being smart, a leader, something that indicates he'd be a good lord high commander.

Otherwise, I thought it was a great episode.

Did not like Littlefinger's brothel scene. The grauitous sex was just annoying and I think it telegraphed way too much about Littlefinger's character and motivations.

Really liked the Tywin- Jaime scene.

Drogo was great.

The entertainment blog on the Vanity Fair website picked up on something I hadn't noticed (despite reading these books 3 times)- in this episode, both Mormonts spotted the leadership potential for Dany and Jon. hmmmm. The first time I read GOT, I didn't even pick up on "Old Bear" Mormont being Jorah's father. It still hadn't occurred to be that their relations might be anything more than a coincidence in the story, but now I'm wondering....

[Landless Knight]

Roz's boobs have had more screen time than all of the direwolves combined.

[Wras]

With regards to Littlefinger, it's just in the way he talks for me. The lines he's saying are actually fine, but the voice is grating. It sounds so fake and toneless. Littlefinger should be like this, but only sometimes. There needs to be a part of his character that opens others to trust him, otherwise he simply wouldn't survive. I think he's playing all schemer and no manipulator, if that makes sense.

[Shepherd6]

Agree ^^^ About Roz's boobs having more screentime than the Dwolves. And it is a shame, too. Suspect most non-readers have forgotten about them/don't realise their signifignace.

On the whole, enjoyed this episode, but have been really pleased in general so far. To answer the question posed by Ser Kevan in regards to non readers and how they took the final throneroom scene: Watched with a non reader/avid watcher and he was blown away by LF's betrayal and Ned's failed coup. He loves Ned though, and has no idea what's coming for him mwaa ha ha. Renly: still disappointing. Dany: Nicely done, shown to be maturing as a character. Drogo: Awesome. Brothel scene: flogged to death, not going to weigh in.

I know they can't put in every little thing from the books, but was no one else sorry not to see Jon appealing to Maester Aemon on Sam's behalf? Would have added much needed dimension to his character

[wandarah]

As far as boobs go, I personally believe those of Ros to be very significant indeed. Stand out performances by them both so far.

[Landless Knight]

It's interesting how the show joins the dots, where the books require readers to do it themselves. The implicit is replaced by the explicit.

Everybody seems to be a degree less devious. Even Littlefinger is more honestly untrustworthy than I remember him from the books. There's less ambiguity.

I liked the Tywin scene, even if the character wasn't how I imagined him. Once again he seemed more forthright and straightforward. He did come perilously close to calling Jaime a loser, whereas, as I recall from the novel, membership of the Kingsguard was regarded as a great honour.

Skinning the stag was a great idea. Symbolism, adding visual interest to the scene, and characterization - Tywin is harshly practical and not afraid to get his hands dirty.

[Shepherd6]

As far as boobs go, I personally believe those of Ros to be very significant indeed. Stand out performances by them both so far.

Oh I won't argue with that :D