[Book Spoilers] EP107 Discussion

[MountainThatRides]

With regards to Littlefinger, it's just in the way he talks for me. The lines he's saying are actually fine, but the voice is grating. It sounds so fake and toneless. Littlefinger should be like this, but only sometimes. There needs to be a part of his character that opens others to trust him, otherwise he simply wouldn't survive. I think he's playing all schemer and no manipulator, if that makes sense.

Yeah, it's his delivery 100%. There's something off about it, something a bit too forceful. Like he's pissed off all the time and it's bubbling under the surface -- which, incidentally, is how the Hound should talk. Instead we get limp-noodle Hound and raspy forceful Baelish.

Regarding the Dothraki khalasar, I seem to recall that 40,000 was the ballpark figure that Drogo was going to 'gift' to Viserys. The number of the entire horde (considering Drogo has more or less united most of the Dothraki) would be considerably larger.

[ENikolai]

Regarding the Dothraki khalasar, I seem to recall that 40,000 was the ballpark figure that Drogo was going to 'gift' to Viserys. The number of the entire horde (considering Drogo has more or less united most of the Dothraki) would be considerably larger.

The first time we hear the number 40,000 is when Viserys tells Daenerys "I would let his whole tribe fuck you. All 40,000, and their horses too." So, Khal Drogo's tribe consists of around 40,000 riders, and I agree that the entire Dothraki horde would be considerably larger.

[kungtotte]

Khal Drogo commands 40,000 Dothraki warriors, but a khalasar contains women and children too which pushes the total higher.

[Ser Warpechowski]

It's interesting how the show joins the dots, where the books require readers to do it themselves. The implicit is replaced by the explicit.

Everybody seems to be a degree less devious. Even Littlefinger is more honestly untrustworthy than I remember him from the books. There's less ambiguity.

I liked the Tywin scene, even if the character wasn't how I imagined him. Once again he seemed more forthright and straightforward. He did come perilously close to calling Jaime a loser, whereas, as I recall from the novel, membership of the Kingsguard was regarded as a great honour.

Skinning the stag was a great idea. Symbolism, adding visual interest to the scene, and characterization - Tywin is harshly practical and not afraid to get his hands dirty.

In one of Jaime´s first POV´s from Storm of Swords he says that his father was extremely pissed off when Jaime joined the Kingsguard, mostly because he would lose his heir and the heir to Casterly Rock. He didnt want Tyrion to have it, no matter what.

Jaime also says he joined the KG because that meant he would be very close to Cersei and wouldnt have to marry Cat´s sister. After Jaime joins the KG Tywin resigns as Hand of the King and goes back to Casterly Rock along with Cersei.

[Rockroi]

I know this may sound strange, but I think there was a significant continuity error in the show.

Renly and Ned's scene is much like the book version, with Renly declaring that merely being the Lord Protector is not enough and that they should get Joff as far away from Cersei as possible. Renly declares the obvious: the need to "strike now" and Ned insisting otherwise. Nothing to note there.

Its just that about half way through the scene, and for no reason I can see, Ned asks, "What about Stannis?" Renly then replies, in effect, why worry about the line of succession.

There's just one problem: Ned NEVER mentions that Stannis is the rightful heir at this point. He never brings up Joffrey being a bastard of Jaime and Cersei- he never says a word about any of that and Renly NEVER implies that he is any bit the wiser. If this is so- or even if its NOT so -why does Ned mention Stannis at all in any way? There is no rumor afoot that Joff is not the heir; Renly is not declaring to usurp Joff because Joff is illegitimate; its not like the scene with LF where Ned says it all right from the start.

I checked the book; in the book Stannis' name never comes up. And with good reason; at that point Renly's attitude was far different; it was a far different character. Also, there is no need, in the book, to mention Stannis- we already knew what Stannis entailed. But the show makes a point of bringing up Stannis but in the context of THIS discussion, its a complete non sequitor.

Why the hell did Ned even MENTION Stannis? It makes no sense at all.

[Wolfheart]

I'm still bothered by Jaimes hair color. His hair is supposed to be blonde like his siblings a nice shiny golden. Not a dark sandy blonde to brown.

To prove that David and Dan and whoever else dropped the ball here is a beautifully lit photo of Ned dueling Jaime. Both with near same hair color.

http://winter-is-coming.net/wp-content/gallery/official-promo-images/the-wolf-and-the-lion-06-1920.jpg

Now when you put Dinklage with his appropriately colored hair for Tyrion in the mix its quite a contrast. Even Headey and Joff*forget the actors name*.

[Ser_Niall]

More comments:

That heart tree face just looked stupid. I half expected a squirrel to jump out of its mouth.

Besides hitting us over the head with a metaphor, why was Tywin skinning a deer? Doesn't seem like something very lordly to do.

I agree. The heart tree in Winterfell looked much better, but not complaining too much. The oath scene was great, the actors who play Jon and Sam mesh well together.

I'm assuming that Tywin is an avid hunter, like Robert. He probably killed the deer, and he wants to skin it himself. I wouldn't be surprised if Robert had survived his hunt, he would have skinned his boar himself.

Overall, this was an ok episode. Much needed plot advancement and characterization. The Littlefinger whore house scene was unneeded. I realize that we need to him to tell his background to someone since we can't get inside the characters heads, but the whole sex scene was over the top. Especially given the fact that I went over to my parent's place to watch this with my dad, and my mother walks in right when this scene starts. We both looked at each other with this "oh boy" look on our faces, and we're 30 and 59 :P

[Landless Knight]

In one of Jaime´s first POV´s from Storm of Swords he says that his father was extremely pissed off when Jaime joined the Kingsguard, mostly because he would lose his heir and the heir to Casterly Rock. He didnt want Tyrion to have it, no matter what.

Jaime also says he joined the KG because that meant he would be very close to Cersei and wouldnt have to marry Cat´s sister. After Jaime joins the KG Tywin resigns as Hand of the King and goes back to Casterly Rock along with Cersei.

Thanks. I've haven't read the first three books in more than ten years. It all gradually trickles out of your head. :dunce:

I've promised myself to reread everything before A Dance with Dragons.

[elmis]

Great catch Rockroi, I didn't see that the first time around.

[Wras]

I know this may sound strange, but I think there was a significant continuity error in the show.

Renly and Ned's scene is much like the book version, with Renly declaring that merely being the Lord Protector is not enough and that they should get Joff as far away from Cersei as possible. Renly declares the obvious: the need to "strike now" and Ned insisting otherwise. Nothing to note there.

Its just that about half way through the scene, and for no reason I can see, Ned asks, "What about Stannis?" Renly then replies, in effect, why worry about the line of succession.

There's just one problem: Ned NEVER mentions that Stannis is the rightful heir at this point. He never brings up Joffrey being a bastard of Jaime and Cersei- he never says a word about any of that and Renly NEVER implies that he is any bit the wiser. If this is so- or even if its NOT so -why does Ned mention Stannis at all in any way? There is no rumor afoot that Joff is not the heir; Renly is not declaring to usurp Joff because Joff is illegitimate; its not like the scene with LF where Ned says it all right from the start.

I checked the book; in the book Stannis' name never comes up. And with good reason; at that point Renly's attitude was far different; it was a far different character. Also, there is no need, in the book, to mention Stannis- we already knew what Stannis entailed. But the show makes a point of bringing up Stannis but in the context of THIS discussion, its a complete non sequitor.

Why the hell did Ned even MENTION Stannis? It makes no sense at all.

I think, in the context of the scene anyway, Renly was implying to just get rid of the Queen and Joffrey anyway, never mind succession.

[Jajusha]

30,000 men is a ridiculously large number of soldiers to have at Jaime's disposal considering Tywin will be retaining a large host under his own command.

Makes the threat of Dothraki invasion seem rather managable if it's only 40,000 and one House can muster a larger army. Jaime taking 5-10,000 would have made the Dothraki horde seem more horde-ish.

However as there are Houses who would still like to see the Targs restored I suppose those houses knowing Dany was returning with 40,000 of her own would embolden those Targ loyalists (Dorne at the very least) to rise up and rebel, thus swelling their ranks. We also know that at least some houses have no great qualms about raping and pillaging, so havign the Dotraki do it wouldn't be all shock horror war crime to Westerosi sensibilities.

It's all academic of course, given how the book ends but still One armyu of 40,000 doesn't seem like much of a threat after the Tywin/Jaime scene.

We are talking about 40.000 Dothraki horsemen, not a regular 40.000 men mixed army. It would move like a locust plague. Any army that tried to face it had to do so in open field, if it stood ground on a defensible position, the horde would bypass it and keep looting.

[The Anti-Targ]

We are talking about 40.000 Dothraki horsemen, not a regular 40.000 men mixed army. It would move like a locust plague. Any army that tried to face it had to do so in open field, if it stood ground on a defensible position, the horde would bypass it and keep looting.

Doesn't matter. As the Russians said: Quantity has a quality of it's own. 40,000 horsemen vs 20 - 60,000 soldiers in each of the 7 kingdoms would soon lose a war of attrition with no hope of replenishing their numbers. No Jaime getting 30,000 men of his own made Robert's angst over a Dothraki invasion look ridiculous. It was very important for Roberts 5 vs 1 lesson mean that none of the 5 alone could field an army large enough to cause significant loss to the Dothraki. The Lannisters clearly have a large enough force to worry the Dothraki.

Anyway I was RIGHT! The stag was real (see the inside Ep. 7 video) Whoever thought it would be possible to make a carcass and deer skin look that real really didn't look closely at how the muscles and skin moved when Charles Dance was doing the cutting and skinning. Props departments really don;t have the technology to make fake skin and muscle look that good. The guts were fake though, because you really couldn't run the risk of perforating the bowel during one of the 50 takes because that would make an unholy mess (though the smell ain't bad because it's only fermented grass); besides there just wasn't enough of it. A Stag that big would have more guts in it than Charles Dance could hope to lift out. They shoulda had him cut open the chest and remove a real set of lungs and heart. Or rather reach up through the diaphragm and do it. Made me hungry that scene. Mmmmm love venison leg steaks. I do hope they ate it, after 50 takes the meat would be well tender, but still safe to eat. Poor Jaime though having Tywin's hand on his neck after hving given his had a cursory wipe with a used rag.

[Sijjvra]

After episode 6 this one was a let down. Mostly for whoregate. Even my husband was eyerolling pretty hard at that and said "yeah if I wanted to watch porn I'd just go watch porn."

I still think it's a bit stupid that we're expected to "enjoy" lesbian sex scenes when we all know that if we'd have gotten the same exact scene from Renly and Loras people would be throwing a huuuuge fit and cancelling their HBO, or worse. Double standards piss me off. And it's not that I have anything against lesbians at all, or even seeing some boobs, but the double standard thing...yeah. Plus, again, if people wanted to go watch porn, they'd go watch porn. This scene could have been more tastefully done and they dropped the ball on it and made it trashy.

And plus I couldn't hear Littlefinger over Ros' stupid moaning. Ros needs to just go away, at least for a few episodes. I'd rather see more dire wolves than your rack again, thanks.

Anyway, I agree that the actor playing Littlefinger isn't doing a stellar job. Not rotten, but he's not at all as subtle, clever and as fun a character to try to figure out as he was in the books.

Barkgate? Yeah, a bit cheesy but I wasn't too worried - honestly at this point the "wolves" look so doglike I just...think of them as half-breed Stark wolves anyway, which is a bummer but... they're giving all the screen time to Ros so we never get to see the wolves much to begin with. T

he actor playing Sam is terrific - I like how he gives Sam a bit of humor here that he was lacking in the books.

Why is Jaime's hair getting more and more brown? Glad I'm not the only one that noticed this.

Osha is great so far. Need more of her and less Ros, IMHO. At least Osha's actually -in- the books and serves a real purpose other than tit-flashing. Loved how snarky she was to Theon.

Our HBO Cersei really isn't doing it for me. She's not got any of the fiery temper and coy mannerisms. It's like I'm watching a completely different character than what was in the books.

Kid playing Joff is nailing it. Love to hate that character.

[jellydonut]

'Barkgate'? Seriously? People expect a spitz dog breed to be taught not to bark? What should they do, tear the dog's throat out?

It's either barking or CGI wolves. I really, really doubt CGI wolves would look acceptable in any way.

[legba11]

[*]I also liked the talk between Ned and Cersei, even if it was not in the godswood. But Ned is just so stupid and honourable spilling the beans like that. No change from the book. It is also evident that it was this event that prompted Cersei's action, not Sansa telling her. Sansa wasn't even in this episode. People blame poor Sansa for a lot of things but generally Ned gets of the hook just because he's honourable, whereas Sansa is deemed a selfish bitch. I'm not excusing what Sansa did, but the real fault lies with Ned himself.

[*]I'm not sure why Varys apparently sent assassins to kill Daenerys when it was established that he conspired with Illyrio on behalf the Targaryens.

Ned get trashed plenty. "Pigheaded, Worst play of The Game of Thrones" Most people empathasize with him as his fault is honor.

Hatred of Sansa may be the closest thing to the fabled "Unifying Force of the the Internet" since hatred of Wesley Crusher. Get used to it. She is the enbodiment of every teenage girl sterotype we all hate, including the super-pretty girl who fawned over the obnoxious douche who drove a better car than us.

Wasn't much of an assassin was he? Not a Faceless man, some loser poison peddler who breaks out in hives when he has to give her the poison. Hell, he didn't even recognize his mark as she walks up. Worst assassin ever. I think Varys knows how to hire a good assassin if he wants to.

[Eddard house stark]

the sex scene was such a waste of screen time. shame on hbo for that garbage. littlefinger is played perfectly by baltimores corrupt mayor.i really admired ned in the books now he looks like a simpleton fool. the beauty of the stupidity of ned is that it actually saves danny. if he had acted and took joffery off the crown ser belamy would never have saved danny. butterfly affect in full affect

[legba11]

I know this may sound strange, but I think there was a significant continuity error in the show.

Renly and Ned's scene is much like the book version, with Renly declaring that merely being the Lord Protector is not enough and that they should get Joff as far away from Cersei as possible. Renly declares the obvious: the need to "strike now" and Ned insisting otherwise. Nothing to note there.

Its just that about half way through the scene, and for no reason I can see, Ned asks, "What about Stannis?" Renly then replies, in effect, why worry about the line of succession.

There's just one problem: Ned NEVER mentions that Stannis is the rightful heir at this point. He never brings up Joffrey being a bastard of Jaime and Cersei- he never says a word about any of that and Renly NEVER implies that he is any bit the wiser. If this is so- or even if its NOT so -why does Ned mention Stannis at all in any way? There is no rumor afoot that Joff is not the heir; Renly is not declaring to usurp Joff because Joff is illegitimate; its not like the scene with LF where Ned says it all right from the start.

I checked the book; in the book Stannis' name never comes up. And with good reason; at that point Renly's attitude was far different; it was a far different character. Also, there is no need, in the book, to mention Stannis- we already knew what Stannis entailed. But the show makes a point of bringing up Stannis but in the context of THIS discussion, its a complete non sequitor.

Why the hell did Ned even MENTION Stannis? It makes no sense at all.

Two possbilities:

1. Renly knows. Let's face it, if Ned can figure something immoral and devious out, likely a good bunch of other people have figured it out before him. Ned is not exactly Sherlock Holmes. It's not unreasonable to think Renly would sit on this knowledge if he thought Robert would not believe him and take out his anger on him. Ever have a friend who's gf/bf was cheating on them and everyone knew it but your friend?

2. Renly clearly doesn't overburden himself with proper sucession, he has NO RIGHT to the throne, yet he is conspiring with the most honorable man in Westeros to take it. He sees himself as the best candidate (and he may be right) and that makes him a valid King. Does anyone who did not carry Joffery in her womb think Joffery will make a good king? His uncles and grandfather all talk about what a monster he is. Honorable Jaime sets getting Tommen free of Cersei's claws before he becomes Joffery2 as his priority at the end of AFFC.

**Edit does --> doesn't **

[Screaming Turkey Reborn]

The look on Alliser Throne's face when Jon is named a steward was priceless. That's all I have to contribute.

[The Iceman of the North]

• A wolf doesn't bark, yet here we can clearly hear Ghost barking as he runs off when they come across the Wall. Maybe direwolves do?
  

Most canines, including wolves, do bark. Wolves are better known for their howling, but they bark as well (when appropriate).

[NW Deserter]

2. Renly clearly does overburden himself with proper sucession, he has NO RIGHT to the throne, yet he is conspiring with the most honorable man in Westeros to take it. He sees himself as the best candidate (and he may be right) and that makes him a valid King. Does anyone who did not carry Joffery in her womb think Joffery will make a good king? His uncles and grandfather all talk about what a monster he is. Honorable Jaime sets getting Tommen free of Cersei's claws before he becomes Joffery2 as his priority at the end of AFFC.

This is what I assumed. His actual idea (in the books as well if I recall) was to seize all three Lannister children and basically hold them hostage/exile them/something bad, even though he thought they were Baratheons (presumably).