The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Why is Jorah Mormont called Jorah the Andal? I know he's a Ser so he follows the new gods, but I always thought that was just his own personal choice, that Mormonts are all pretty hardcore northerners and First Men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Andals are the majority ethnic group in Westeros, so it makes sense that foreigners who weren't intimately aware of the different Westerosi ethnic groups would refer to any Westerosi as an Andal.Besides, there's probably been so much intermarriage between Andal and First Men houses that the distinction between the two is essentially meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitsphyre Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 They don't NEED to follow the new gods to be a knight, a knight can make anyone he wants a knight. But since there aren't many followers of the new gods in the north there aren't many septs and therefore there aren't many knights to go knight others. I believe his father keeps to the old gods as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzureOwl Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Why is Jorah Mormont called Jorah the Andal? For the same reason everyone from Great Britain is called English by everyone else. For most people around our world England and Great Britain are interchangeable, even if England is only a fraction of the whole country. But you just ask the Welsh and the Scottish how much they like that little habit. Normally, people don’t pay attention to internal ethnic or cultural divisions in a country and just use the general term they’re familiar with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 They don't NEED to follow the new gods to be a knight, a knight can make anyone he wants a knight. But since there aren't many followers of the new gods in the north there aren't many septs and therefore there aren't many knights to go knight others. I believe his father keeps to the old gods as well.Not true. From the Citadel:"Knighthood is a religious matter open only to those who profess to follow the Seven..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 They call him Jorah the Andal among the Dothraki in the books, so it's only proper to do so in the series as well. They do so most likely because they don't know or care about the fact that he belongs to a much older ethnic group, and he does not care to explain this to the Dothraki. He even tells Dany that Drogo and the Dothraki imagine Westeros as some kind of small island like Lys or Lorath.And Jorah does not follow the new gods as far as I know. He was knighted for his valor during the storm on Pyke, not because he followed the new gods or wanted to be a knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitsphyre Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Not true. From the Citadel:"Knighthood is a religious matter open only to those who profess to follow the Seven..."Hmm... But there were knights who didn't believe in the new gods? I thought I read some stuff about that.And, while this is splitting hairs, it wouldn't be too unbelievable to say that simply saying the vow doesn't mean they believe the new gods. I mean Dondarian knights a whole host of people who are now following Thoros's god. (And Gregor certainly doesn't stick to the faith :P) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Hmm... But there were knights who didn't believe in the new gods? I thought I read some stuff about that.According to GRRM, there is a northern equivalent to knights, but it's "not quite the same." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyDogIsNamedDanerys Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Yeah, I was curious about this myself. But then again, the Andals most likely intermarried with everyone and are now the majority population even in the North. The Starks are just stubborn hold-outs (and surely their first men blood is pretty dilute by now too). Or, perhaps Bear Island's first men were wiped out and supplanted by Andals. Or maybe there was no lord on the island until the Andals settled and built a fort for protection against Reavers or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenophon Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Maybe the Mormonts are Andals. Old Bear doesn't say that he follows the old gods when he tells Jon his uncle swore his oaths at a weirwood. Also, it might explain why they have a Valyrian steel blade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Maybe the Mormonts are Andals. Old Bear doesn't say that he follows the old gods when he tells Jon his uncle swore his oaths at a weirwood. Also, it might explain why they have a Valyrian steel blade.The Starks have a Valyrian steel blade as well, and they're First Men (though again, the distinction is probably meaningless at this point, since the Andals and First Men have had thousands of years to intermarry).Though I suppose it is possible the Mormonts are Andals. Most First Men families have short, descriptive names, such as Stark, Reed, Flint, etc., while Andal families have longer names with varying origins, like the Lannisters (supposedly taken from Lann the Clever) or the Manderlys (probably taken from the Mander river, which used to be their home). "Mormont" is a name that strikes me as more Andal than First Men, based on this rubric. That said, I think it's more likely that the Dothraki just think of all Westerosi as being Andals, like Americans think of all people from the United Kingdom as being English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenophon Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 The Starks have a Valyrian steel blade as well, and they're First Men (though again, the distinction is probably meaningless at this point, since the Andals and First Men have had thousands of years to intermarry).Yeah, I wasn't suggesting it's proof, just that it seems odd that a fairly poor family from the furthest corner of the world has such a blade, when IIRC the only other one in the north belongs to the Starks who were kings. If the Mormonts originally came from the south before entering the Starks' service, they'd have more opportunities to acquire such a weapon, I think.Also, according to the wiki, the Mormonts were granted Bear Island by the Starks. If the first Lord Mormont was a landless retainer prior to that, he could easily be from anywhere, so the family needn't be first men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Yeah, I wasn't suggesting it's proof, just that it seems odd that a fairly poor family from the furthest corner of the world has such a blade, when IIRC the only other one in the north belongs to the Starks who were kings. If the Mormonts originally came from the south before entering the Starks' service, they'd have more opportunities to acquire such a weapon, I think.Perhaps. Though I'm not really sure why being an Andal makes one more likely to have a Valyrian steel blade.Also, according to the wiki, the Mormonts were granted Bear Island by the Starks. If the first Lord Mormont was a landless retainer prior to that, he could easily be from anywhere, so the family needn't be first men.I think this is better evidence that the Mormonts may be Andals. They certainly wouldn't be the only Andal northern family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenophon Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Perhaps. Though I'm not really sure why being an Andal makes one more likely to have a Valyrian steel blade.Oh, just because there seem to be more of them in the south, and they lived closer to Valyria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmflavius Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Perhaps. Though I'm not really sure why being an Andal makes one more likely to have a Valyrian steel blade.I think it's primarily the fact that in the books, the Andal houses tend to be richer than the First Men houses, primarily because they conquered the most bountiful part of Westeros. Valyrian steel blades are also often equated with wealth and power. However, the Mormonts are neither wealthy nor unusually powerful, hence, why some people assume that they may have been originally Southron, akin to how the Manderlies were once Southron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Oh, just because there seem to be more of them in the south, and they lived closer to Valyria.True, though IIRC the Andals migrated in order to get away from the Valyrians. I suppose they could have gotten some swords off of them in battle, though.Also, in AFFC Sam mentions to Jon how he read that the First Men used "dragonsteel" to fight the Others, which he and Jon take to mean Valyrian Steel. Of course, they could both be mistaken, or the historical accounts could be off (since they were actually written by Andals), so this isn't solid evidence. But it does at least suggest that the First Men had fairly good access to Valyrian steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 You think the Mongols cared whether someone was Persian or Arabic when they were pillaging their villages? Jorah is lucky they make the distinction between him and anyone else they see who isn't Dothraki. The Dothraki pretty much live by the same creed that Cersei espoused to Joffery, though with a slight difference: Anyone who isn't us is our slave, or soon will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smegma Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Cause Jorah the Andal sounds cool as hell.And it's in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NW Deserter Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 ^^^Agree with that. "Jorah the First Man" sounds weird...and probably isn't strictly true. <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedsquirrl Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 If he didn't follow the 7 before he got married, he probably converted after he married his wife.That explains his "Ser".Knighted for valor or not, seems like you have to be a follower of the 7 to get it.Sounds like his wife could get him to do anything.Conversion from the old gods was probably an easy sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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