The R+L=J thread, part XII

[William The Lion]

Lots of people feel the Others will be completely defeated and there will be no need to have the Nights Watch anymore but to me that makes no sense at all. The Nights Watch still exists and the Others were defeated before right? You think AA or/the Last Hero just didn't have what it takes to finish them off? Not likely, everything is cyclical, like the seasons the Others and the Long Night will come again, if it happened thousands of years ago I'm sure that everyone will chalk it up to children's stories in another couple thousand years and wake up one day to a big surprise of a red comet flying across the sky and soon the dead come walking. They may think they've won for the time being, but the Nights Watch didn't last thousands of years because they thought "we beat them for sure, they are never coming back, no question."

[Galen M]

popgun, stop your trolling.

the tv series is not as canon as the books. Scenes are included because it's hard to get in the minds of characters in a TV series. Other scenes are added to make the show even more sexually titillating. Still more scenes are there for to make it easier for the viewers who haven't scene the book to follow what's going on.

Further, GRRM said that he was "surprised, but pleased" that the TV producers had figured out Jon's parentage. That makes zero sense with EWJ, 100% percent sense with RLJ.

[Masha]

It amazes me how attached to R+L=J theory some people are. Twisting vague references this way and that. The t.v series is just as "canon" as the books.

Walking into a boiling hot bath and later holding the dragon eggs at least show Dany has a strong resistance to heat and fire. Jon was instantly in pain when he grabbed the lantern (as he was when he took the burning curtain in the book). His hand is permanently scarred from the fire afterwards.

So if you believe R+L=J then it makes it pretty difficult because Jon obviously isn't a true dragon like Dany is. Claiming he is one of the 3 dragons out of the prophecy is even more of a stretch. Personally I've always thought the 3 dragon thing out of the prophecy was simply a reference to 3 dragons being born again, as in Dany's actual 3 dragons.

It's why TOJ will never be in the t.v series. GRRM and HBO don't want viewers getting confused like a lot of readers have.

Ned is obviously the father although it does still remain debatable who the mother is.

I've got an easy explanation for you regarding HBO show

1) According to book Jon got burned by grabbing on and holding to burning curtain - a lot of fire there and direct exposure to flame and "Targ's not being burned" only came in affect after the Dragons were born and magic got re-inforced. So far Dany didn't get any direct exposure to actual fire - just holding hot eggs and taking hot baths. As GRRM himself said Targs are far more heat tolerant than normal people but not flame-proof.

In the show it was burning lantern because they didn't want to bother with special effects for such short scene and moment were they could get the same effect with hot lantern and Jon saying "Aw". Finally if L+R=J is true, Jon is still half Targ with another half being Stark, who supposed to be more cold tolerant, so you take Fire+Ice=Normal. plus his Stark half is reinforced with Ghost, the Direwolf while Dany's is pure Targ and being reinforced with Dragons

2) TOJ scene and major hints on R+L=J are ONLY relevant if show will finish showing to the very end of series, since I would assume that most of Jon's parentage secrets would be exposed at the last 2 books= last 2 seasons. So, if show is successful, its over 6-7 years from now (plus only if GRRM manages to finish both last books within that time period)! So if the last season is uncertain, and the show is not been established at least as firmly as True Blood is, wny would producers introduce extra confusion and revelations if the whole reveal would never be shown?

And don't forget TOJ would require to hire at least 1 extra actor for Lyanna (similar looking to Ned/Starks and good enough to appease most hard-core fans).

I would guess that if R+L=J the hints and reveals and perhaps TOJ scene would be shown at the season that corresponds to A Dance with Dragons book (where Barristan tells Dany secrets)

[zmflavius]

So if you believe R+L=J then it makes it pretty difficult because Jon obviously isn't a true dragon like Dany is. Claiming he is one of the 3 dragons out of the prophecy is even more of a stretch. Personally I've always thought the 3 dragon thing out of the prophecy was simply a reference to 3 dragons being born again, as in Dany's actual 3 dragons.

Yeah, just like how Aegon V is actually alive and on the wall, because he and his son are Targs, and therefore, completely immune to fire, including the fire at Summerhall. Or how Viserys is clearly actually a bastard with platinum blond dye in his hair, or else the melted gold would never harm him. And these are just the two examples I can think of off the top of my head.

Speaking of which, have you managed to dredge up five quotes which support E+W=J yet? And if R+L=J proves to be true, do you plan on also drinking beer out of a boot?

[starki]

Dany did get direct exposure to flame - she walks right into Khal Drogo's pyre when the eggs are hatched.

There can't be two Azor Ahai reborn. Either Daenerys is, and she looks like the best candidate by far, or someone else is. If Jon is a Targaryen he should be the strongest candidate. While I appreciate his skills on the Wall, I don't think he is APTWP. Plus I hope the incest factor doesn't get played again.

[Asarlai]

I've got an easy explanation for you regarding HBO show

1) According to book Jon got burned by grabbing on and holding to burning curtain - a lot of fire there and direct exposure to flame and "Targ's not being burned" only came in affect after the Dragons were born and magic got re-inforced. So far Dany didn't get any direct exposure to actual fire - just holding hot eggs and taking hot baths. As GRRM himself said Targs are far more heat tolerant than normal people but not flame-proof.

In the show it was burning lantern because they didn't want to bother with special effects for such short scene and moment were they could get the same effect with hot lantern and Jon saying "Aw". Finally if L+R=J is true, Jon is still half Targ with another half being Stark, who supposed to be more cold tolerant, so you take Fire+Ice=Normal. plus his Stark half is reinforced with Ghost, the Direwolf while Dany's is pure Targ and being reinforced with Dragons

Sounds like a lot of made up assumptions, but then again, I don't think Dany's perceived "powers" could be generalized to a whole family anyway.

Plus, "Wow Jon, you aren't burnt at all!" would really give things away, and Mr. Martin is keeping the secret of Jon's mother (and possibly his father, if it isn't Ned) for the end of the series.

2) TOJ scene and major hints on R+L=J are ONLY relevant if show will finish showing to the very end of series, since I would assume that most of Jon's parentage secrets would be exposed at the last 2 books= last 2 seasons. So, if show is successful, its over 6-7 years from now (plus only if GRRM manages to finish both last books within that time period)! So if the last season is uncertain, and the show is not been established at least as firmly as True Blood is, wny would producers introduce extra confusion and revelations if the whole reveal would never be shown?

And don't forget TOJ would require to hire at least 1 extra actor for Lyanna (similar looking to Ned/Starks and good enough to appease most hard-core fans).

I would guess that if R+L=J the hints and reveals and perhaps TOJ scene would be shown at the season that corresponds to A Dance with Dragons book (where Barristan tells Dany secrets)

They would have to make it different than Ned's memory anyway. He remembers walking in and seeing her in bed, covered in blood. It's hard to show that without giving away her either being murdered or it being from childbirth, and again, Mr. Martin doesn't want to confirm Jon's parentage just yet. If she was obviously stabbed, it would be proof for one side. If she had obviously given birth, it would be hard evidence for the other side (not "proof," per se, since it could be a child other than Jon).

[Galen M]

They would have to make it different than Ned's memory anyway. He remembers walking in and seeing her in bed, covered in blood. It's hard to show that without giving away her either being murdered or it being from childbirth, and again, Mr. Martin doesn't want to confirm Jon's parentage just yet. If she was obviously stabbed, it would be proof for one side. If she had obviously given birth, it would be hard evidence for the other side (not "proof," per se, since it could be a child other than Jon).

Show the blood, show her face, just a couple of flashes, easy solution.

[Noir Dove]

Plus, "Wow Jon, you aren't burnt at all!" would really give things away, and Mr. Martin is keeping the secret of Jon's mother (and possibly his father, if it isn't Ned) for the end of the series.

I agree. I was very pleased with that scene even without my crazy mind inputting foreshadowing into EVERYTHING. (Don't even get me started on how we didn't see Syrio get shish-ca-bobbed.)

Anyways back on track :P

I find Dany to be very special in her heat resistance. But, I don't believe Jon would have to have those same powers in order to be a Targ.

[Asarlai]

Show the blood, show her face, just a couple of flashes, easy solution.

True, but they could foul it up, and even if they didn't there would still be people saying things like "Pause at frame 247 and zoom in, you can see that [...] is [...]" or "Newborn babies cry" or whatever.

I find Dany to be very special in her heat resistance. But, I don't believe Jon would have to have those same powers in order to be a Targ.

I seem to recall Mr. Martin saying that it was a one-time deal, anyway, because of the magic of dragons being born.

[Noir Dove]

I seem to recall Mr. Martin saying that it was a one-time deal, anyway, because of the magic of dragons being born.

Oh really? Interesting! Like the dragons kept her safe?

I keep going back and forth on whether or not I believe L+R=J... but I always come back to believing that it HAS to be true. I think it's the one theory I NEED to be true. All the other stuff I'm sure GRRM will handle beautifully. But this one...

Does anyone else feel that kind of loyalty to this theory?

[Asarlai]

Oh really? Interesting! Like the dragons kept her safe?

Actually, I found the quote, which isn't as much as I thought it said: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/945/

I keep going back and forth on whether or not I believe L+R=J... but I always come back to believing that it HAS to be true. I think it's the one theory I NEED to be true. All the other stuff I'm sure GRRM will handle beautifully. But this one...

Does anyone else feel that kind of loyalty to this theory?

I want Jon to be Ned's son, but I admit that R+L=J is a possibility.

[nothatso]

Actually, I found the quote, which isn't as much as I thought it said: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/945/

He's also said this:

Granny: "Do Targaryens become immune to fire once they "bond" to their dragons?"

George_RR_Martin: "Granny, thanks for asking that. It gives me a chance to clear up a common misconception. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold."

http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

[Bulok]

Just as an aside on the Dany in the pyre thing, I was under the assumption that she survived because of the magi's ritual AND her dragon blood, not the dragon blood alone. So Jon being burned by fire doesn't necessarily automatically disqualify him as being Targaryen

[Popgun]

do you plan on also drinking beer out of a boot?

I accepted the beer out of a boot bet. A few posts from the last thread got deleted because of some comparisons to a r/l royal family. I'll re-accept the bet again here though.

I keep going back and forth on whether or not I believe L+R=J... but I always come back to believing that it HAS to be true. I think it's the one theory I NEED to be true. All the other stuff I'm sure GRRM will handle beautifully. But this one...

Does anyone else feel that kind of loyalty to this theory?

I think most R+L=J supporters feel that way. It's almost like a religion for some people. Even to the point where people claim things like GRRM asking the HBO guys about Jon's parentage as "proof" of R+L=J. Or Robert and Catelyn believing Ned to be Jon's father is a "red herring". Or if Jon didn't get burnt "it would be too obvious".

The major point (and tragedy) of the series is that Dany is the last dragon. The last of an old and powerful dynasty. She is barren now so there will be no more dragons, the Targ's become extinct when Dany dies. Assuming she outlives Aemon of course. Jon the bastard wolf suddenly being revealed as a dragon as well doesn't make sense and doesn't suit the story which is why I believe Ned is Jon's father.

[Dragonfish]

I think most R+L=J supporters feel that way. It's almost like a religion for some people. Even to the point where people claim things like GRRM asking the HBO guys about Jon's parentage as "proof" of R+L=J.

It's not proof, but it does seem strange that George would ask the producers this question if E+W=J. Can you think of a reason why he would ask this question if E+W=J?

Or Robert and Catelyn believing Ned to be Jon's father is a "red herring".

Uhhh...I don't recall anyone claiming that that's a "red herring." Could you provide a quote from someone on the board?

Regardless, we know why Catelyn and Robert think Jon is Ned's son: Ned claimed he was his son. This bit of info doesn't support or contradict either theory.

Or if Jon didn't get burnt "it would be too obvious".

People have explained why Jon didn't get burned. George has said that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Are you going to recognize this fact?

The major point (and tragedy) of the series is that Dany is the last dragon. The last of an old and powerful dynasty. She is barren now so there will be no more dragons, the Targ's become extinct when Dany dies. Assuming she outlives Aemon of course. Jon the bastard wolf suddenly being revealed as a dragon as well doesn't make sense and doesn't suit the story which is why I believe Ned is Jon's father.

Saying "I don't think the theory is true because I don't like it" is not an argument. I'd like you to answer zmflavius' question: can you find five quotes supporting E+W=J?

[Galen M]

the issue with producers is probably the biggest hint/clue to RLJ we've had since the release of AGoT (the book).

[Asarlai]

the issue with producers is probably the biggest hint/clue to RLJ we've had since the release of AGoT (the book).

Forgive me for not reading the previous thread (I've just recently joined), but what is the issue with the producers?

[Galen M]

Forgive me for not reading the previous thread (I've just recently joined), but what is the issue with the producers?

There was an interview where it was revealed that GRRM had asked the produced who they thought were Jon's parents, and that he was "surprised, but pleased" that they got it right.

[Xenophon]

I think most R+L=J supporters feel that way. It's almost like a religion for some people. Even to the point where people claim things like GRRM asking the HBO guys about Jon's parentage as "proof" of R+L=J. Or Robert and Catelyn believing Ned to be Jon's father is a "red herring". Or if Jon didn't get burnt "it would be too obvious".

I think you may be getting too immersed in these arguments. I suspect most R+L=J supporters don't feel that strongly about it--it just seems the most likely option to them at this point given all the evidence.

Forgive me for not reading the previous thread (I've just recently joined), but what is the issue with the producers?

In some interview or article, it was mentioned that GRRM and the producers had discussed Jon's parentage, and GRRM was pleased to find that they had guessed correctly who Jon's parents are. As Galen M said, that's a pretty big hint for R+L=J, since it would be odd for them to be talking about this if E+W=J, and R+L seems the most likely option for DnD to have guessed.

[Asarlai]

There was an interview where it was revealed that GRRM had asked the produced who they thought were Jon's parents, and that he was "surprised, but pleased" that they got it right.

Interesting. That does mean that they didn't believe what he thought they would. Now, he could have thought they would believe N+W default, but they got R+L right. Or he could have thought that they either believed the N+W default or had been exposed to the popular R+L fan theory, but actually got N+A right. So we can't draw a conclusion, but it does seem to mean that N+W has less force and it's a combination that people can figure out (ie, not someone not mentioned or barely mentioned).