The R+L=J thread, part XII

[Jon Blackfyre]

I accepted the beer out of a boot bet. A few posts from the last thread got deleted because of some comparisons to a r/l royal family. I'll re-accept the bet again here though.

Noted. check the new signature, I'm holding us to this.

I think most R+L=J supporters feel that way. It's almost like a religion for some people. Even to the point where people claim things like GRRM asking the HBO guys about Jon's parentage as "proof" of R+L=J. Or Robert and Catelyn believing Ned to be Jon's father is a "red herring". Or if Jon didn't get burnt "it would be too obvious".

I think it is rather humorous that you say the people that believe in R+L=J treat it like a religion, and feel so strongly about it considering your own feelings against it are equal. I think most people have an opinion on it, some more strongly than others, some care, some don't. To try to roast the ones that believe strongly by calling them "Snowians" is rather hypocritical when you yourself are a "Wyllian."

All I'm saying is you talk pretty strong about R+L=J being false, but you still haven't given any real solid reason why E+W=J is true. And yes, I realize Ned said "Wylla" was the name of his bastard when questioned by King Robert, and Edric Dayne thinks Wylla is Jon's mother. Both of which are easily explainable from my point of view, one is a lie meant to conceal the truth from the man that would kill Jon because of R+L=J, and the other is the opinion of a boy years younger than Jon who doesn't really KNOW anything.

The major point (and tragedy) of the series is that Dany is the last dragon. The last of an old and powerful dynasty. She is barren now so there will be no more dragons, the Targ's become extinct when Dany dies. Assuming she outlives Aemon of course. Jon the bastard wolf suddenly being revealed as a dragon as well doesn't make sense and doesn't suit the story which is why I believe Ned is Jon's father.

I don't think the major point of the series is that Dany is the last Targ, I think the major point of the series is Dany is the Prince(ess) who was promised. Which is why she didn't burn when the dragons where born. Jon being a Targaryen, or even a Targaryen's bastard doesn't change the fact that Dany is the one with the dragons, the army and the claim. Jon is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch don't forget, he has no claim, he swore an oath. An oath he has kept even though it meant abandoning his family in times of war, killing his sworn brother when told to do whatever it takes, riding with the wildlings and even being offered Winterfell. He is a man of the Watch, even if he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, his true family all wears black.

[cklabyrinth]

question about R+L=J

five direwolves, one for each of the Stark children... plus ghost. is the assumption that each of the direwolves representing a child of Ned's own just a red herring; can it be that ghost could be for Jon despite the possibility of Jon being the son of Lyanna instead of Ned?

[Jon Blackfyre]

question about R+L=J

five direwolves, one for each of the Stark children... plus ghost. is the assumption that each of the direwolves representing a child of Ned's own just a red herring; can it be that ghost could be for Jon despite the possibility of Jon being the son of Lyanna instead of Ned?

I always took it as 5 normal direwolves for the 5 Starks, and 1 abnormal one for the Stark/Targaryen child. 6 direwolves for that generation of people with Stark blood. Because honestly, Jon, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon are all 50% Stark and 50% something else, be it Tully or Targaryen.

[Popgun]

Noted. check the new signature, I'm holding us to this.

lol. Nice sig.

I think it is rather humorous that you say the people that believe in R+L=J treat it like a religion, and feel so strongly about it considering your own feelings against it are equal. I think most people have an opinion on it, some more strongly than others, some care, some don't. To try to roast the ones that believe strongly by calling them "Snowians" is rather hypocritical when you yourself are a "Wyllian."

Not really. If anything I'd be a "Nedian" from your point of view because I think Ned is definitely the father. Wylla is a candidate for mother but there is also Ashara. Or if you've read Davos' spoiler chapter from aDwD it suggests a possible 3rd canidate unless the captain's daughter was actually Wylla. I'm not even a "Nedian" though because the reason I called people snowians is because a lot of them have an extreme fondness for Jon. A lot of R+L=J theories are accompanied with Jon possibly being Azor Ahai reborn, a head of the dragon from the prophecy etc.... hell some R+L=J people even speculate Jon will save the world from all threats, leave the wall and marry a once again fertile Dany.... and then everyone lives happily ever after.... "Snowian" just refers to the more extreme R+L=J desciples, not everyone who believes R+L=J.

I don't think the major point of the series is that Dany is the last Targ, I think the major point of the series is Dany is the Prince(ess) who was promised. Which is why she didn't burn when the dragons where born. Jon being a Targaryen, or even a Targaryen's bastard doesn't change the fact that Dany is the one with the dragons, the army and the claim. Jon is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch don't forget, he has no claim, he swore an oath. An oath he has kept even though it meant abandoning his family in times of war, killing his sworn brother when told to do whatever it takes, riding with the wildlings and even being offered Winterfell. He is a man of the Watch, even if he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, his true family all wears black.

Well we can agree on that at least. I believe that as well. Jon will never leave the wall. He's taken the black and is Lord Commander. Jon on the wall is a life sentence. Robb and Stannis have offered him Winterfell and he's refused so he could remain with his brothers on the wall, this isn't going to change imo.

[Asarlai]

I always took it as 5 normal direwolves for the 5 Starks, and 1 abnormal one for the Stark/Targaryen child. 6 direwolves for that generation of people with Stark blood. Because honestly, Jon, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon are all 50% Stark and 50% something else, be it Tully or Targaryen.

I think the silent white wolf apart from the other vocal grey siblings works better with the bastard Snow* child of the same family, though that doesn't mean that it doesn't work at all the other way.

*As in Jon Snow, not Jon Waters

[Dragonfish]

@Popgun--you should really put your ADWD spoilers in spoiler tags. In case you don't know what the spoiler tags are, here you go: [ spoiler ] your message [ /spoiler ] (all without the spaces, of course).

I think the silent white wolf apart from the other vocal grey siblings works better with the bastard Snow* child of the same family, though that doesn't mean that it doesn't work at all the other way.

*As in Jon Snow, not Jon Waters

I've always taken Ghost's silence to be a hint that there's a secret about Jon. Silence=secrecy=something hidden.

[Raksha the Demon]

lol. Nice sig.

Not really. If anything I'd be a "Nedian" from your point of view because I think Ned is definitely the father. Wylla is a candidate for mother but there is also Ashara. Or if you've read Davos' spoiler chapter from aDwD it suggests a possible 3rd canidate unless the captain's daughter was actually Wylla. I'm not even a "Nedian" though because the reason I called people snowians is because a lot of them have an extreme fondness for Jon. A lot of R+L=J theories are accompanied with Jon possibly being Azor Ahai reborn, a head of the dragon from the prophecy etc.... hell some R+L=J people even speculate Jon will save the world from all threats, leave the wall and marry a once again fertile Dany.... and then everyone lives happily ever after.... "Snowian" just refers to the more extreme R+L=J desciples, not everyone who believes R+L=J.

Well we can agree on that at least. I believe that as well. Jon will never leave the wall. He's taken the black and is Lord Commander. Jon on the wall is a life sentence. Robb and Stannis have offered him Winterfell and he's refused so he could remain with his brothers on the wall, this isn't going to change imo.

I too think that Jon will remain with the Watch - unless the men in black are disbanded, or the Others utterly defeated (which is unlikely) and thus reducing the need for the Night's Watch...What if Jon is kicked out of the Watch and manages not to be executed?

As for being Nedian or Snowian; I do believe that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but I'm not a fanatic about it. Only GRRM knows for sure; and he probably gets a good laugh at the thought of adults tearing into each other on this subject.

[jlk7e]

*As in Jon Snow, not Jon Waters

Why would Jon be Jon Waters? Bastards are named for where they grow up, not the region that their father ruled. He can be Jon Snow and be Rhaegar's bastard just as easily as anything else. Mya Stone is Robert's daughter. Brynden Rivers was Aegon IV's son. (If bastards are supposed to be named for where they're born, Jon would likely be Jon Storm or Jon Flowers, no? (the mountains of Dorne are behind the Tower of Joy as Ned approaches from the north, so it must be in the Stormlands or the Reach, no?)

In terms of Ghost, a white wolf does kind of call to mind Targaryen coloring, doesn't it?

[Galen M]

(If bastards are supposed to be named for where they're born, Jon would likely be Jon Storm or Jon Flowers, no? (the mountains of Dorne are behind the Tower of Joy as Ned approaches from the north, so it must be in the Stormlands or the Reach, no?)

Jon Sand, actually. Pretty sure the ToJ was in Dorne.

[Asarlai]

In terms of Ghost, a white wolf does kind of call to mind Targaryen coloring, doesn't it?

Red and black? Or do you mean the silvery-gold hair and violet eyes? White hair and red eyes isn't quite the same... Much closer to a weirwood.

Jon Sand, actually. Pretty sure the ToJ was in Dorne.

"Close to the Red Mountains of Dorne." So, depending on which side of the mountains, either Dorne, the Reach, or the Stormlands. Probably not the Stormlands, though. And the Reach would be depressing... "Jon Flowers."

Also, I'm curious to see if HBO (apparently knowing Jon's parentage) put him on this shirt: http://store.hbo.com/game-of-thrones-stark-family-tree-t-shirt/detail.php?p=300716&v=hbo_shows_game-of-thrones_house-stark

If they didn't, it would be a clue, though they could claim bastards don't go on the family trees.

If they did, it would again be a clue, though they could later claim that they just went with series canon until it changed.

I can't zoom in enough to see.

[PrincessArianne]

(Hi, I'm new here, I joined because of the theory discussions going on, mostly. They are really good.)

Also, I'm curious to see if HBO (apparently knowing Jon's parentage) put him on this shirt: http://store.hbo.com...nes_house-stark

If they didn't, it would be a clue, though they could claim bastards don't go on the family trees.

If they did, it would again be a clue, though they could later claim that they just went with series canon until it changed.

I can't zoom in enough to see.

As soon as you did that I tried to upload it and zoom in, but it became blurry. If the producers do know about his ~true parentage, wouldn't they make like George and try and keep it somewhat a secret? I think when George eventually reveals it (if he actually does) they'll start dropping more hints, but I think we'd have to wait until ADWD if I'm being honest.

[LadyMary]

question about R+L=J

five direwolves, one for each of the Stark children... plus ghost. is the assumption that each of the direwolves representing a child of Ned's own just a red herring; can it be that ghost could be for Jon despite the possibility of Jon being the son of Lyanna instead of Ned?

My theory (I think some if it's been confirmed):

Symbolically, the dead she-direwolf represents House Stark, not just Eddard Stark. The dead Stag represents House Baratheon. House Stark is destroyed by, and destroys, House Baratheon in turn or their destruction is interconnected. This is already coming to pass. Brandon, Ned and Lyanna Stark are dead and Benjen is missing and presumed dead. Robert Bartheon is dead, as is Renly and both died without trueborn heirs. Stannis and his daughter are the last true-born Baratheons. Assuming the dead stag is an omen, I think Stannis will die too.

Anyway, the five direwolf pups around the dead mother obviously represent the five true-born Stark children. The mute albino (i.e. white as Snow) found separated from the other pups represents the Stark that's different, either because he's Ned's bastard or because he's son of a different Stark, i.e., Lyanna. Ghost being mute represents that there is a secret about Jon.

So far, one direwolf - Lady - was ordered executed, just as the Lannisters have effectively cut off Sansa from House Stark (and Robb disowned due to her marriage to a Lannister). Grey Wind was killed at the Red Wedding along with Robb and his head nailed onto Robb's corpse. I think this represents that the "head" of the family has been destroyed. Nymeria is running wild in the riverlands and killing, while Arya is "running wild" and directly responsible for killing several people or indirectly, several more. Summer and Bran continue seeking answers together - literally at times... Same with Ghost and Jon, though Ghost is more of a "truth-teller" than a seeker. Shaggydog and Rickon are alive but unaccounted for.

ETA:

Close to the Red Mountains of Dorne." So, depending on which side of the mountains, either Dorne, the Reach, or the Stormlands.

Yeah, but it seems unlikely that a woman of the Reach or Stormlands would end up working as a wet-nurse to the Daynes of Dorne. Why wouldn't she have found work in her homeland and in Dorne instead if she wasn't Dornish? In any case, Jon's claimed father is a Northman so he's a Snow. If his real mother is a Northwoman, he'd still be a Snow unless she identified Jon's father as a man of Dragonstone and he was acknowledged as such.

Also, I'm curious to see if HBO (apparently knowing Jon's parentage) put him on this shirt:

The HBO website, and all the books so far, have Jon listed as Ned's bastard son by either 'Wylla" or an unknown mother. That's the "official" story that everyone believes at the present time in the ASOIAFverse and I doubt HBO would spoil a huge secret such as R+L=J in the TV show merchandise before the secret has been revealed in the books.

[Xenophon]

The HBO website, and all the books so far, have Jon listed as Ned's bastard son by either 'Wylla" or an unknown mother. That's the "official" story that everyone believes at the present time in the ASOIAFverse and I doubt HBO would spoil a huge secret such as R+L=J in the TV show merchandise before the secret has been revealed in the books.

HBO also lists Joffrey as Robert's son, so they're clearly going with a no-spoilers policy.

[M'lady Cynthia Rayder]

I am new to the books, and to me, I have no need to write the story, only to follow it as I read along... At this point, 1/2 way through CoK, I am under the impression Jon Snow is Ned's bastard, mother is Wylla. there have been hints that he is of stark blood and not referred to by Ned as his son, and also the dreams of Lyanna saying "promise me" but given the circumstances of when she said that, it could mean many things, I am not one create the ending in my mind, I'll leave that to GRRM....

[Dragonfish]

I am new to the books, and to me, I have no need to write the story, only to follow it as I read along... At this point, 1/2 way through CoK,

Wait, you're only halfway through ACoK? I take it this is your first read? If so, run, run like the wind! This forum is full of spoilers for all four books, so it's best if you wait until you're finished with them all before coming back here.

I am under the impression Jon Snow is Ned's bastard, mother is Wylla. there have been hints that he is of stark blood and not referred to by Ned as his son, and also the dreams of Lyanna saying "promise me" but given the circumstances of when she said that, it could mean many things, I am not one create the ending in my mind, I'll leave that to GRRM....

I don't think anyone here is writing the story for GRRM, we're just parsing the clues that he himself has laid out for us. And in so doing, we validate his skill as a writer.

Besides, in choosing to believe that Wylla is Jon's mother, you're choosing one particular interpretation, and are thus "creating the ending for GRRM" just as much as the rest of us. :)

[LadyMary]

I am new to the books, and to me, I have no need to write the story, only to follow it as I read along... At this point, 1/2 way through CoK, I am under the impression Jon Snow is Ned's bastard, mother is Wylla. there have been hints that he is of stark blood and not referred to by Ned as his son, and also the dreams of Lyanna saying "promise me" but given the circumstances of when she said that, it could mean many things, I am not one create the ending in my mind, I'll leave that to GRRM....

Welcome to the world of A Song of Ice and Fire, Cynthia... I'm pretty new too, but have read all the books at least once. I have to concur with Dragonfish, that you should be very wary of these forums if you are not looking to be spoiled to later events or if you don't like digesting, parsing, slicing and dicing every line of these books for clues in support of one theory or another. Personally, I love spoilers and devoured them like they are candy as I was reading along. I love reading the theories and seeing what evidence other fans put together. It's part of the fun.

But, not everyone wants that.

[Bronn_ManofHonour]

I too think that Jon will remain with the Watch - unless the men in black are disbanded, or the Others utterly defeated (which is unlikely) and thus reducing the need for the Night's Watch...What if Jon is kicked out of the Watch and manages not to be executed?

As for being Nedian or Snowian; I do believe that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but I'm not a fanatic about it. Only GRRM knows for sure; and he probably gets a good laugh at the thought of adults tearing into each other on this subject.

One of the points I could see Jon (even if he is AA reborn), is that the King protects (and serves) the Realm and not the other way around like the Baratheon's and Lannister's acted. I could very easily see Jon saying Castle Black is the new seat of the King and moving the Iron Throne there. The real threat to existence is the Others and it is the utmost importance to defeat them above any material wealth or comfort.

One of the things I noticed was: 1) Orphaned at a young age 2) Raised by a respected and honourable man. 3) Unites with a weird ally (possibly the wildlings... we will see). 4) Possibly brings two long standing feuding people together 5) Saves the realm from a real evil outside threat... hmm... he seems to be given a very similar storyline to Aragorn!

[Galen M]

One of the things I noticed was: 1) Orphaned at a young age 2) Raised by a respected and honourable man. 3) Unites with a weird ally (possibly the wildlings... we will see). 4) Possibly brings two long standing feuding people together 5) Saves the realm from a real evil outside threat... hmm... he seems to be given a very similar storyline to Aragorn!

Luke Skywalker and Harry Potter also hit on almost all of those points.

In addition, all 4 characters were raised by their Uncle (well, Great^32 Uncle for Aragorn) if RLJ is true.

[starki]

I had a different theory today...what if we're looking it the wrong way and the father, rather than the mother, is the mystery ?

It's clear at least one of Jon's parents is a Stark, as he looks like a Stark...like Lyanna, to be exact. (Not necessarily proof as Arya also looks like Lyanna but is not her daughter). So there are 3 options :

- he really is Ned's son and the simplest explanation is correct. But then, why would it matter who the mother is ? Why such emphasis on his parentage in the books ? Why that mystery letter that Ned hands to Varys in the dungeons ? Why such secrecy on his origins ?

- he came from TOJ and is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son. Plausible, but would strongly hint at Jon being APTWP, since that would make him Targaryen ("there must be one more", remember Daeny's visions in COK). However...that would cancel Daeny's claim to be APTWP. Not likely as she has proven to be the one, with the dragon birth.

- and the third option that I haven't seen around yet. Jon is the son of Lyanna - and Robert Baratheon. The King did manage to have a true born child. Why hide him ?

1) Because the men hunting down all Targaryens in sight would think it's Rhaegar's child - I strongly suspect this is why Ned chose a few trusted men, to protect Lyanna and any potential offspring.

2) Cersei's agents killed two bastard children - they would surely not stop at a true born son.*

3) Lyanna, IMO, died at child birth. Ned Stark is the kind of man that would want to spare his old friend the pain of knowing his child killed his mother.

4) I believe Ned's letter was meant for Jon, explaining his lineage and proof, and probably as Hand of the King, legitimizing him as a Stark (maybe Robb legitimized him when he named him heir of Winterfell in his will). Howland Reed can be another source, as he is the other witness to the events in TOJ. I think Ned wanted to tell him Jon he'd be back from King's Landing or when Jon'd come of age. But alas.

5) Note his leadership on the Wall, and him beating 3 other members of the Watch...sounds like a warrior. A Baratheon.

This child, to get even more protection, goes in the North, to Winterfell, and later the Night's Watch. Not bad if you want to conceal a royal child from any harm.

* Stark/Baratheon lineage, and the oldest son of the last King to be recognised by all Seven Kingdoms. Take that, Stannis (a brother to the King) and Daenerys (a daughter of a prince). Pretty ironic to have Stannis offering Jon mere Winterfell...when he is the heir to so, so much more.

This way, Daeny gets to be APTWP (and I believe whoever this is will die fulfilling his prophecy) and Jon gets to be the King. A song of ice and fire.

[Noir Dove]

starki: are you suggesting that, perhaps, Jon is Robert's son?

I thought that once myself. But there are a few problems with that.

My thoughts:

Why would Ned keep his son from him? I was always under the impression that he needed to keep Jon from Robert because Robert has a nasty habit of killing/ hating Targs.

And if Jon was the product of Robert and Lyanna. Robert would love that boy more than the air around him. Knowing that he was part Lyanna. It makes no sense at all for Ned to keep Jon from his father.

My questions: (I haven't researched enough to know Robert's whereabouts when Lyanna was taken)

Also there is the question of timeline. We know that Lyanna disappeared with Rhaegar after the tourney at Harrnhal. Was Robert there? Lyanna would already have to be pregnant when Rhaegar "stole" her away in order for Jon to be Robert's.

But then again, we truly DON'T know what Ned's Promise was. Maybe Lyanna hated Robert. Knowing that her baby was also Robert's was too much to bear for her. And then she made Ned promise to keep her baby from the man that she hated? I dunno anything is possible.

But I find myself seeing red flailing herrings everywhere I turn in regards to Jon's parents.