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The R+L=J thread, part XII


mormont

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Yes, he was, according to Wikipedia :

There was a seven-sided melee in the ancient style. Robert Baratheon took part in the melee.

Lyanna knew his womanizing ways. Maybe she didn't want him to be raised by Robert. And we don't know she wasn't pregnant either so...

Promise would most likely be "keep this baby safe". Which would be as far away from the battle, and away from Robert's men who would most likely think the child's a Targaryen.

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Another option may be Lyanna hears the ruckus and screams of fighting outside, and commits suicide in fear of the men outside killing her ? Maybe she figures all is lost and doesn't want to go on living without Rhaegar ?

The description is Ned finds her covered in blood. Might not be child birth per se. But I do believe the promise has to do with Jon Snow.

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That was my big issue as well. I'm trying to look up some timeline info, but it's not going well, lol.

I'm reading about Robert's Rebellion. And what I've gotten out of it is that If Lyanna was with Robert in the months before her kidnapping it is possible that she gave birth at ToJ sometime during Robert's Rebellion and she died because of a wound or some other reason when Ned arrives. But I cannot find anywhere where Rhaegar took her from or if she had been with Robert. And if it's true that Lyanna died in childbirth, there is no way she would have been pregnant by Robert. Since she would have been at ToJ for well over a year by the time Ned arrives and fights the remaining Kingsguard.

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Reading the posts above that Jon might be Roberts son, I came up with an another theory.

What if Lyanna is indeed Jon's mother, but she does not know who the father is? :blink:

She maybe slept with Robert beefore she was abducted (I think Robert was in Harrenhal), then she slept with Rhaegar, so maybe she didnt know either. I dont know the exact timeline, so I dont know how much is it possible.

That would be the ultimate teaser.

After all the disscussion that is going on about Jon's parentage.

(For the record I think the R+L=J is more possible, but I like the Jon is Roberts son as well)

EDIT: I just noticed that the R+L=J could stand for Robert+Lyanna=Jon as well.

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Ohh, nice one, Silverin. I like that, it is likely she slept with both men.

Maybe this is the ultimate trick: everyone thinks Jon's a Stark (some think he's a Targaryen) but he's actually a Baratheon all along.

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Ohh, nice one, Silverin. I like that, it is likely she slept with both men.

Maybe this is the ultimate trick: everyone thinks Jon's a Stark (some think he's a Targaryen) but he's actually a Baratheon all along.

Yes, and that is why Ned didnt tell anyone. He was protecting his sis rep.

You know she was a wild girl, among so many hot knight ;)

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Well I am loving the boot bet! I am going to love hearing about the loser drinking up! I am 100% behind R+L=J and I have been since my first read through the books.

There are so many references if you know what you are looking for. Many of which are thin in and of themselves, but when you combine them all together it is very hard to logically argue against R=L=J (in my opinion). It all depends on the depth at which people read the books. My best friend for example is a light reader and got the major plot elements, but forgot who many characters were throughout the series. So of course he refused to believe me, even though he could not recall a lot of the plot lines.

I will sum it up below for you silly doubters, no page references as I am at work.

1) In AGoT where Ned forces Cat to never ask again about Jon's mother...."He is of my blood"

Note how he does not directly refer to Jon as his son, but as his blood.

2) When riding south with Robert Ned is haunted by his promise to Lyanna.

What else would he have promised that GRRM could not have simply written if R+L=J? It would be logical to assume he promised to look after the boy and raise him as a Stark.

3) The bed of blood.

Ok lets face it how else would she die in a bed of blood if not child birth? She had 3 of the best fighters in the realm defending her! Arthur Dayne does not strike me as the kind of guy to let someone he is protecting die from an attack.

4) Neds dream about the Tower of Joy.......only Ned and Howland Reed survived that fight.

Now why would 3 of the best KG be defending Lyanna? Rhaegar died on the Trident and his loony dad was in KL.......why were the KG at the ToJ? Unless there was a member of the royal family there, or they were there on explicit orders.

Now that in no way says Jon was legitimized, but it does at least suggest that Lyanna was very important to Rhaegar. If he believed Jon to be one of the prophecized heads of the Dragon then I would assume he would want him protected.

5) Neds letter to Jon, and his thoughts of Jon in KL.

It suggests he wants to talk to Jon and fill him in on everything.

6) Ned's speach to Arya about lying to protect her wolf

Ned tells her that even a lie can have honor......I consider lying to the realm and proclaiming you sired a bastard when you did not to honor a request from your dying sister to be taking a big one for the team. He lived with his wifes anger for years over a son he did not even help sire.

7) Ned remembers on his was South the "lies we tell for love"

Lies told to protect Jon.....no matter the cost. I think so.

8)Danny's vision in the house of the undying: A blue rose growing in a wall of ice

This was the clue that did it for me. Lyanna's favorite flower was the blue rose. It was her crown at the tourney where Rhaegar crowned her the queen of love and beauty.

There were also flower petals around her when Ned found her, as per AGoT.

9) The Knight of the Laughing Tree story told by the Reed children.

Lyanna was the knight of the Laughing Tree, or seems to be. Rhaegar was responsible for chasing the Knight down.

Now I am guessing she left with him on her own accord as Ned stated she was very much like Arya. Headstrong and wild.

So those are the big ones off the top of my head. Wylla was most likely Jon's wetnurse as that was her function according to Ned Dayne. Ned telling Robert that she was the mother makes a great deal of sense if he is trying to protect Jons identity. She was his wetnurse anyway so most people would not question that statement. Including Robert.

I think I hit on the major points, and alone they are weak......but if you add them all together it is hard to ignore them.

But then again some people are too stubborn to see the hints, and will believe what they want right up until the moment GRRM shouts out loud that yes R+L=J is true.

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1) Yes, as in...he's also 50% Stark. Whether you believe Jon's a Targ or a Baratheon.

2) Sure, he remembers Robert's son.

3) There are other, non child-birth explanations.

4) This does not invalid Jon being a Baratheon.

5) Yes.

6) Agreed.

7) No argument either.

8) Jon on the Wall is a popular theory. I think it's less significant than Azor Ahai prophecies or three mounts/dragon has three heads images. Those are key images for Daeny.

9) Could be, knight or not, she had a child.

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The Knight of the laughing tree was howland reed lyanna is the shewolf/wolfs maid in the story.

As for Robert taking Lyanna before the weeding I can't believe that. Lyanna did not like Robert and why should he force himself on a woman he gets in a few month because she is promised to him?

There is now even a thread saying Brandon and Lyanna would be jons parents! Lets all hoe adwd will clear the matter once and for all

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What if Lyanna is indeed Jon's mother, but she does not know who the father is? :blink:

She maybe slept with Robert beefore she was abducted (I think Robert was in Harrenhal), then she slept with Rhaegar, so maybe she didnt know either. I dont know the exact timeline, so I dont know how much is it possible.

The timeline doesn't rule it out, but it makes it extremely, EXTREMELY, unlikely. Jon is conceived around the time of the Battle of the Bells - give or take a month. That's likely three to four months Into the Rebellion and well after Lyanna is "kidnapped;" which is sometime before the war starts. So, if Robert is Jon's father, with Lyanna his mother, then the two of them have to get together during that time period - across enemy lines - and get back without anyone knowing anything about it. How that could realistically happen is beyond me, but this is fantasy.

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Ohhh I forgot to mention Danny thinking Rhaegar dying for the woman he loved on the Trident........not sure if she meant Lyanna though. That one is a little thin.

But back to the KOtLT. Yep Rhaegar was charged with finding out who the knight was.....and then crowns Lyanna the Queen of love and beauty in front of his wife........I think it is safe to assume he was pretty damn impressed by the she wolf ;)

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Why is Jon Snow's pedigree so important?

It seems obvious to me that, throughout the books, GRRM has been grooming Daenerys and Jon for leadership positions through experiential training, putting them in situations where they have to manage difficult people, complete difficult tasks, and make difficult choices. This training should trump any blood-based claim for the crown. Robert Baratheon needed no pedigree to stake his claim. Why should the next king/queen be any different?

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Robert Baratheon needed no pedigree to stake his claim.

Actually, he did. He was the direct descendant of Aegon V (Egg). After Aerys's direct descendants, he was next in line for the throne.

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If it came down to Robert+Lyanna vs. Rhaegar+Lyanna, Rhaegar seems the more likely father. Remember, the seed is strong; 16 children, all black of hair (or 15+1, if Jon is the 1). Robert's genes have overpowered all others across the Seven Kingdoms, likely at least a few of Fist Men stock. However, Rhaegar was only 1 for 2 on passing on his traits to his children, so Lyanna's genes would have had more of a shot, since Jon is every bit a Stark, but for name.

Of course, when discussing this, the elephant in the room is the scenario of Jon being Ned's son, so while Rhaegar seems a more viable candidate for father than Robert, he still hasn't pulled ahead of Ned, for lack of evidence. Of course, he very well might, but we'll have to wait to see.

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Why is Jon Snow's pedigree so important?

It seems obvious to me that, throughout the books, GRRM has been grooming Daenerys and Jon for leadership positions through experiential training, putting them in situations where they have to manage difficult people, complete difficult tasks, and make difficult choices. This training should trump any blood-based claim for the crown. Robert Baratheon needed no pedigree to stake his claim. Why should the next king/queen be any different?

As Galen M said, Robert Baratheon was a Targaryen and the next in line after Aerys' children. Putting that aside, I don't think who sits on the Iron Throne is going to matter much at the end because Jon, Dany and whoever else is still alive will have bigger fish Others to fry, and the whole continent will been torn apart by civil war followed by a long Winter without sufficient provisions to start with.

I'm kind of hoping that the Spring will bring an end to the threat of the Others and a need to change to political structure, maybe a chance to change the feudal system of Westeros into a parliamentary-type monarchy. Wishful thinking and I'm not holding my breath.

But as for why Jon's pedigree matter, because Jon wants to know who his mother is and because GRRM has put this mystery out there for us to ask the question. He could have just flat-out had Ned tell the story of Jon's parentage:"Jon your mother is/was Wylla, a Dornish servant of the Daynes that I met during the war." But Ned doesn't tell him that, nor does he tell his own wife. Instead, GRRM's left that an unanswered question for Jon and lots of tantalizing clues that given us Jon's story is more than meets the eye. What secret was too dangerous to tell even the person Ned loved and trusted the most? What lies did Ned tell for love? Why did he remember the promise to Lyanna at certain moments, such as when Sansa pleaded for Lady's life? I think it had to be a life or death reason.

For those who think Jon's father was Robert, why would Ned need to lie about that? Robert loved Lyanna. At worst, he probably would have treated Jon like he treated Edric Storm. He'd acknowledge him and let Jon Arryn take care of providing support. As the son of his beloved Lyanna and the nephew of his foster brother Ned, I think Robert probably would have done better by Jon than that. Ned would still be raising Jon and act as a father figure to his nephew and Jon would still be a high-born bastard named Snow growing up close to his cousins. He wouldn't be in Cersei Lannister's orbit way up in Winterfell and as a son of Ned's sister, he'd be no "threat" to anyone when it came to inheritance. He'd probably still choose to join the Nights Watch because uncle Benjen had and it's a place that even a bastard can rise high. Ned would not have hurt Catelyn by having her believe he'd dishonored her, or hurt Jon by indirectly causing him to be the object of Catelyn's scorn.

I don't think the timeline works either. As far as we know, Robert was with Ned in the Vale when Lyanna disappeared with Rhaegar. A year later, Ned found Lyanna. If she was dying in her "bed of blood" a euphemism for childbirth, it would must have been a recent birth.

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Yeah, but it seems unlikely that a woman of the Reach or Stormlands would end up working as a wet-nurse to the Daynes of Dorne. Why wouldn't she have found work in her homeland and in Dorne instead if she wasn't Dornish? In any case, Jon's claimed father is a Northman so he's a Snow. If his real mother is a Northwoman, he'd still be a Snow unless she identified Jon's father as a man of Dragonstone and he was acknowledged as such.

If Wylla isn't from Dorne, which I think is the case, this is a very, very good question. I think the answer is that the Daynes take her into their household to provide her with a secure remote place to help maintain the story that she is Jon's mother. Why would they do that, and where does Wylla come from? Because, I'd bet, the Daynes are Targaryen loyalists who see protecting a Targaryen heir as their sworn duty. The answer to the second part is wound up with, I think, how she gets involved with being Jon's wet-nurse (not to be confused with the wet-nurse Catelyn mets on arriving in Winterfell.) I think she is a loyal Targaryen servant, in the mold of Old Nan or Mikken, who Rhaegar gets to come to the Tower when he finds out Lyanna is pregnant. The point being she is known to be loyal before she gets there, and as someone known as such she could come from anywhere the Targaryens have sympathizers. Someplace close to Dragonstone would be a good guess, I think, for Wylla's home.

Spoiler
There is a spoiler from a reading Martin did of a Davos chapter that puts her origins in the Three Sisters, I believe. It also supports the idea that Wylla is Jon's mom - which I take to be part of the cover story as the timeline for Jon' birth would be out of whack
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