First review of ADWD

[Lokhtar]

Since the beginning of the season only after one episode did the ratings slide down a bit. After Ep 8 the ratings are up record high for GoT. So I really don't know what you all are talking about with the "low ratings" and all... We can easily assume that the 3mil. milestone will be contended at season finale :)

Compared to the budget of the show, the ratings can be considered mediocre. Though the fact that they are rising bodes well, but it's not a big success. We don't know what the minimum rating levels HBO would need to keep ordering the series past the second season.

[Valmy]

Since the beginning of the season only after one episode did the ratings slide down a bit. After Ep 8 the ratings are up record high for GoT. So I really don't know what you all are talking about with the "low ratings" and all... We can easily assume that the 3mil. milestone will be contended at season finale :)

I was not saying the ratings were low only that they are not nearly as important as on non-premium TV. After all HBO is not selling ad time on Game of Thrones. DVD-sales on the other hand WILL produce lots of revenue for HBO. It is why they made a mistake cancelling Rome despite low ratings. The DVD sales were great.

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] Please stick to the original topic, and take discussion of the HBO show to the proper forum. Thank you. [/mod]

[Saulot]

I'm a little skeptical as to whether 7 books will be enough to finish the series. Not that I know better than George Martin, of course, but considering that the series has continually expanded past his plans, I think that 8 or 9 might be a more cautious bet right now. I would not necessarily mind, if they are good books, but I hope that however many successive volumes they are, Martin is able to finish them more easily. I have a certain intuition that there is a point in the narrative arc where things stop becoming more difficult to write and start becoming easier, but who knows if that will really be true?

[Calibandar]

Just a few thoughts on this first review of the the most highly anticipated genre book of the last 10 years...

PW is not known for their fantasy reviews, or in my experience for having their opinion be very similar to my own when it comes to Fantasy. In particular they tend to really love works I am not fond of at all. Not knowing who reviewed the book or what he-she thinks of other books, I don´t attach any value to any overall judgement of the book they might give. I can focus on specific lines though.

but plots within plots abound, and two strong new candidates for those scaly saddles emerge as a powerful enemy threatens Daenerys's captured city of Meereen

Taken together with the blurb, which states that among Tyrion's group there is one who could destroy Dany's claim forever, it seems quite likely now that this is Aegon, or a Pretender Targaryen as some have suggested. This could be someone pretending to be Aegon, or someone fromn the Bastard Targaryen bloodline who might possess heirlooms or something else. The second " strong new candidate" would likely be one of the Greyjoy brothers. Both of these parties could be seen as a powerful enemy.

More characters are revived than killed off and more peace accords signed than wars declared, but the heart-hammering conclusion hints that the next installment will see a return to the fiery battles and icy terror

Presumably one more hint that while plenty will happen in ADWD, large scale events will probably be reserved for the next book. Personally though, with the future of the series at such gigantic risk ( without being morbid), I am hoping for as much resolution as we can possibly get.

[All-For-HotPie]

I agree with most other posters who agree that this looks more of a summary than a review. Notifying resellers of the type of content in the book is far different than actually reviewing and picking it apart (like the rest of us will).

But it's good that I read this. It has tempered my expectations a bit, since I've been secretly hoping to myself that this book will restore my faith and turn me into less of a grumpkin about the series.

[SevenSent]

I'm a little skeptical as to whether 7 books will be enough to finish the series. Not that I know better than George Martin, of course, but considering that the series has continually expanded past his plans, I think that 8 or 9 might be a more cautious bet right now. I would not necessarily mind, if they are good books, but I hope that however many successive volumes they are, Martin is able to finish them more easily. I have a certain intuition that there is a point in the narrative arc where things stop becoming more difficult to write and start becoming easier, but who knows if that will really be true?

I have to agree. I think Kong was bad in that it required him to rewrite the book 3 times. Son of Kong will be, I believe more manageable. Also with the hope / expectation of Season # 3 being picked up he will have to pick up the pace in the future. As well as not use quite so many characters. They cost money.

[Kalbear]

I have to agree. I think Kong was bad in that it required him to rewrite the book 3 times. Son of Kong will be, I believe more manageable. Also with the hope / expectation of Season # 3 being picked up he will have to pick up the pace in the future. As well as not use quite so many characters. They cost money.

Yes, because his answer to his Meereneese knot was to add another PoV.

Sorry, don't buy it.

He might write more with the notion of making things cheap, but my gut feeling tells me he'll write with the notion of his plan. If the HBO show diverges (as it already has) so be it.

[Gaston de Foix]

I have to agree. I think Kong was bad in that it required him to rewrite the book 3 times. Son of Kong will be, I believe more manageable. Also with the hope / expectation of Season # 3 being picked up he will have to pick up the pace in the future. As well as not use quite so many characters. They cost money.

I agree with your agreement,SevenSent.

I don't agree with the assumption that Son of Kong will be more manageable. Count on your fingers the number of POVs that will have to be incorporated. I'm fast running out of fingers, I'll tell you that. If, as the review seems to be saying, a lot of the action pay off will not come in ADWD but in later books, GRRM better have a damn good plan for rigorously whittling down his POVs.

[Padraig]

GRRM better have a damn good plan for rigorously whittling down his POVs.

It may be very easy. Any of what some people call "guest" POVs can simply be dropped. If you remove all of them then you are down to a very manageable number of POVs again.

[Werthead]

Yes, because his answer to his Meereneese knot was to add another PoV.

He added another POV, but the POV of an existing character. So that's an expansion to the POV cast, but the general cast (which is more important for the TV show) should remain the same.

It may be very easy. Any of what some people call "guest" POVs can simply be dropped. If you remove all of them then you are down to a very manageable number of POVs again.

I don't think the 'guest POV' system has worked out the way it was planned. I got the impression that GRRM saw those POVs from AFFC as one-and-dones, but by writing all of them more chapters for ADWD and TWoW, he's pretty much upped them to standard POV status anyway.

[Padraig]

I don't think the 'guest POV' system has worked out the way it was planned. I got the impression that GRRM saw those POVs from AFFC as one-and-dones, but by writing all of them more chapters for ADWD and TWoW, he's pretty much upped them to standard POV status anyway.

Do we know that they all have further chapters?

In his blog GRRM said that "Sansa, Sam, Aeron Damphair, Arianne, and Brienne have no chapters in A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. Several of those characters had chapters written, completed, and polished that have been moved into THE WINDS OF WINTER." So Damphair may or may not have one. Except if GRRM confirmed that he has somewhere else?

Of course, that's just one example. We know Asha, Arianne, Hotah, Victarion do have chapters written. 4 out of 5 is a rather significant figure. OTOH, maybe GRRM decided that they all needed 1 or 2 more chapters before he could move on?

In some ways, focusing on these type of POVs is a red herring anyhow since they only have 1 (or maybe 2) chapters. They don't take up that much space.

[Faint]

All we know is that Arianne and Aeron have a chapter in TWoW (in Arianne's case, we know she has multiple chapters). We also know that Sansa has chapters. There has been no confirmation on Sam, Brienne, Areo, or Victarion. Personally, I think the latter three might die in ADwD.

[RandAllThor]

All we know is that Arianne and Aeron have a chapter in TWoW (in Arianne's case, we know she has multiple chapters). We also know that Sansa has chapters. There has been no confirmation on Sam, Brienne, Areo, or Victarion. Personally, I think the latter three might die in ADwD.

The review makes the deaths of the latter three seem fairly unlikely. If the reviewer knows what he's talking about, it seems the book won't be too death-heavy as far as important characters go. I wouldn't expect more than one or two myself, but hopefully I'll be surprised.

[Padraig]

There has been no confirmation on Sam, Brienne, Areo, or Victarion. Personally, I think the latter three might die in ADwD.

What I meant was that there are 2 ways to end a POV. Kill them or just drop them as a POV charcter. Of the current POV characters up to the end of aFfC, we know everyone still alive has at least 1 more chapter except (IIRC) Damphair. If Damphair has another POV chapter at some stage then it does suggest that GRRM isn't going to drop a live character as a POV.

If the reviewer knows what he's talking about, it seems the book won't be too death-heavy as far as important characters go.

As much as I like Brienne, I'm not sure i'd say she is important (in the same way Ned or Cat were anyhow).

[Faint]

The review makes the deaths of the latter three seem fairly unlikely. If the reviewer knows what he's talking about, it seems the book won't be too death-heavy as far as important characters go. I wouldn't expect more than one or two myself, but hopefully I'll be surprised.

I have reservations myself after reading the review but I do wonder whether the reviewer considers the three I mentioned "important characters."

My feeling is that some of the POVs have to die or disappear. In the case of Theon, Asha, and Aeron, I think they'll simply become one POV. But Victarion and Brienne? I think they die. Brienne's story is complete and I think Victarion will have served his purpose unless he ends up marrying Daenerys, and if that is the case, he'll end up dying anyway. Aero I think can either die or simply disappear into Arianne's POV.

What I meant was that there are 2 ways to end a POV. Kill them or just drop them as a POV charcter. Of the current POV characters up to the end of aFfC, we know everyone still alive has at least 1 more chapter except (IIRC) Damphair. If Damphair has another POV chapter at some stage then it does suggest that GRRM isn't going to drop a live character as a POV.

Damphair is already confirmed for the next book, as is Arianne.

[Jon Blackfyre]

I don't really care about the reviews of a critic, because we've seen where that goes with the "critical reviews" of Game of Thrones before it came out. I think the way I will read ADWD and truly judge its worth for myself is one read through by itself, possibly tow, and then read it in conjunction with AFFC and match up the chapters as close as possible to make it one large book and see how the story feels with all the characters read together in a continuous flow.

That is the way the story was meant to be, and after i get the 1 or 2 initial reads of pure joy of having a new book out of my system i will do it right.

[Padraig]

Brienne's story is complete

I never liked that theory. If her story was complete GRRM would have conclusively killed her off in aFfC IMO. She can easily find something to do in future books, although she may indeed die at some stage.

I don't think there is any doubt that some POV will die in aDwD. Beyond that, speculating gets difficult.

Damphair is already confirmed for the next book, as is Arianne.

Interesting. Once aDwD is released, somebody will have to ask GRRM does he plan to keep all those POVs in the air in tWoW. Dropping some seems like the easiest thing to do. But GRRM may find them useful still.

[Werthead]

Yup. Arys Oakheart is obviously dead, but of the 'Temp POVs' Victarion, Asha, Areo Hotah and Quentyn (a temp POV for AFFC moved into ADWD) are confirmed for ADWD, and Aeron and Arianne are confirmed for TWoW. So that's all of them.

[Rhaegar]

Yup. Arys Oakheart is obviously dead, but of the 'Temp POVs' Victarion, Asha, Areo Hotah and Quentyn (a temp POV for AFFC moved into ADWD) are confirmed for ADWD, and Aeron and Arianne are confirmed for TWoW. So that's all of them.

At least if Melisandre, Barristan and the Mystery POV aren't counted as "Guest POVs".