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Werthead

First review of ADWD

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Yup. Arys Oakheart is obviously dead, but of the 'Temp POVs' Victarion, Asha, Areo Hotah and Quentyn (a temp POV for AFFC moved into ADWD) are confirmed for ADWD, and Aeron and Arianne are confirmed for TWoW. So that's all of them.

At least if Melisandre, Barristan and the Mystery POV aren't counted as "Guest POVs".

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I never liked that theory. If her story was complete GRRM would have conclusively killed her off in aFfC IMO. She can easily find something to do in future books, although she may indeed die at some stage.

I don't think there is any doubt that some POV will die in aDwD. Beyond that, speculating gets difficult.

I love Brienne, but I think her PoV should be dropped. Note that I don't say she should be killed. Characters can do a lot without being PoV's (see: Littlefinger, The Hound, Barristan (well until aDwD I guess), etc).

Then again it's my opinion that Sam, Arianne, Victarion, Aeron, Asha, and Theon should be dropped as PoV's, though again not necessarily killed (but in some cases I'd be for that too).

What will Brienne do next? She'll continue on her quest to be the perfect knight and to do good like her ancestor Dunk. That's what her story's always been about - regardless of who she's serving. I suspect that Brienne will find a new master after confronting Jaime.

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Then again it's my opinion that Sam, Arianne, Victarion, Aeron, Asha, and Theon should be dropped as PoV's, though again not necessarily killed (but in some cases I'd be for that too).

I think you should probably get used to Arianne because I think she's here to stay. She's the Dorne POV. And it's hard to consider her a guest POV when she's already had 2 POV chapters and 2 more to come.

Victarion, Aeron, Asha, and Theon is too many POVs for the Ironborn going into the future but I think this is a temporary problem. I suspect that either Asha or Theon, and more likely the latter, will take over as the sole POV for the Ironborn. Asha, Theon, and perhaps even Aeron's story will continue, but under a single POV.

What will Brienne do next? She'll continue on her quest to be the perfect knight and to do good like her ancestor Dunk. That's what her story's always been about - regardless of who she's serving. I suspect that Brienne will find a new master after confronting Jaime.

Presuming that she has to have a good end. She can very well fall short of her goals and die. The writer is not overly swayed by sentimental inclinations, after all.

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even if we are indeed getting into too many POVs territory I think we need a Tyrell POV for completions sake

I've long suspected the Tyrells don't have a POV because there is nothing particularly interesting about their story that needs to be told. They're simply ambitious. There's not even family intrigue to get into, like with the Martells or Grejoys, since the Tyrells seem to operate as a cohesive unit. Willas, Garlan, Loras, and Margaery seem to be just fine with each other. And as much as the Queen of Thorns mocks Mace, it's not like she isn't working for his own interest as well. Their POVs would simply read as passive observers of the far more interesting families.

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Then again it's my opinion that Sam, Arianne, Victarion, Aeron, Asha, and Theon should be dropped as PoV's, though again not necessarily killed (but in some cases I'd be for that too).

Ok, I don't know what is in store for those characters but I would agree with the idea of dropping certain characters as POVs if doable. I'm really curious about what GRRM thinks.

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Why do people think that Brienne's story is finished?

Isn't her quest to find Sansa and Arya? I don't think it's finished at all.

I think that she will find the Hound (i.e. the gravedigger) and through him discover that Arya is alive.

Somehow, she will also probably find Sansa (after all she is not too far from the Vale).

Just my two cents worth.

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So when will we be getting more, actual reviews? Hurry up Lev Grossman!

Edit: we do have more Grossman tweets:

"I forgot what it was like to read new GRR Martin. I can do nothing else. It's GRRMazing. GRRMazeballs"

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I'm struggling to see why he would need selmy as a pov to fix the Meereenese knot, but i'll probably see why when I read the book.

Yeah I was really surprised by that, since presumably he'll be by Dany's side at all times. Jorah I could have seen (he could have joined some other faction after being banished), but Barristan? I suppose Daenerys will send him on some important mission and we'll need his eyes there.

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Yeah I was really surprised by that, since presumably he'll be by Dany's side at all times. Jorah I could have seen (he could have joined some other faction after being banished), but Barristan? I suppose Daenerys will send him on some important mission and we'll need his eyes there.

IRRC GRRM said that he was having a bit of trouble getting the charectars where they were susposed to be when the Meeting/battle/what have you takes place. so I guess his pov could be him finding Quentryn Martell and Victorian and getting them there.

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IRRC GRRM said that he was having a bit of trouble getting the charectars where they were susposed to be when the Meeting/battle/what have you takes place. so I guess his pov could be him finding Quentryn Martell and Victorian and getting them there.

My hunch is that GRRM will need multiple POVs to give an accurate insight into what is happening at the battle.

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Why do people think that Brienne's story is finished?

Depends if you read for theme or for plot.

Brienne had to learn that love is the bane of honour. That being true to your vows is a shitty, hard, and heartbreaking thing. That chivalry is just a glamour over plain old murder.

(Remember how she was in the beginning? She hated the Kingslayer for betraying his oaths.)

Now she knows. She’s made her hard choice. She chose honour over love. Now she just has to kill Jaime, and it’s over for her (and him). That can be done in a single Jaime chapter early in the book.

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Depends if you read for theme or for plot.

Brienne had to learn that love is the bane of honour. That being true to your vows is a shitty, hard, and heartbreaking thing. That chivalry is just a glamour over plain old murder.

(Remember how she was in the beginning? She hated the Kingslayer for betraying his oaths.)

Now she knows. She’s made her hard choice. She chose honour over love. Now she just has to kill Jaime, and it’s over for her (and him). That can be done in a single Jaime chapter early in the book.

not to thread jack, and the italics above are mine, but that is extremely suspect in my eyes in terms of Brienn'stheme. For the following reasons.

(1) honour in Westeros is an essentially contested concept. This isn't just on the margins, or on the basis of incomplete information.

To be sure, Jaime conceded that the White Bull was more honourable than he was in following his vows, (although I doubt Tyrion, Tywin, Sumner Crakehall, or Kevan would concede as much if they were fully apprised of the facts of Jaime's king killing; none of them considers it dishonourable on the basis of their incomplete information), but (1) the words were spoken in bitterness (2) the White Bull never actually had a choice between letting all of King's Landing burn and protecting Aerys. It was an honourable thing to do and Brienne herself recognises that.

(2)To say Brienne has chosen "love" over "honour" is nonsense. Brienne was infatuated with Renly and now she's infatuated with Jaime. Jon loved Ygritte. Jaime loved Cersei. Brienne does not love Jaime because whatever feelings she has for Jaime, they are effectively rooted in fantasy.

(3)Love is the bane of honour is a phrase used by Aemon in relation to the vows of the Nightwatch. If you go back and read the examples Aemon gives, it's clear there are ample reasons for the Night's Watch to hold itself apart from the realm's politics, and to avoid the formation of dynasties serving at the Wall. It means less than nothing for Brienne. There's no conflict between her feelings for Jaime and her mission.

(4) you are forgetting that Brienne actually had a mission, and continually reaffirms her commitment to finding Sansa throughout AFFC both in her interior monologue and in dialogue with others. For her to hunt down and kill Jaime represents a complete abandonment of finding Sansa, which she does for Sansa's sake as much for the vow she made Lady Catelyn.

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(2)To say Brienne has chosen "love" over "honour" is nonsense.

Just for the record: I said the opposite.

(I’m also not pursuing this, for fear of threadjack.)

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Just for the record: I said the opposite.

(I’m also not pursuing this, for fear of threadjack.)

My bad.

Fair enough, we'll debate this some other time in an appropriate thread.

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Regardless of what the review said, I'm still pretty excited for this book. Just reading Tyrion and Jon again after so long will be worth the price of the book alone. And even if it's 'bloated' or has a similar vibe as 'Feast'....it will still be miles ahead of most of the other trash passed off as fantasy these days. I'm ready for a nice fat juicy slice of my favorite fantasy world.

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I just finished my 3rd read of Feast. Maybe there's something wrong with me, but I really like it. It's gotten better with each reading. I'm supposed to hate it, I know, but I can't. Sure, books 1 and 3 are the best, but books 2 and 4 are also quite good.

I love the Cersei King's Landing stuff. The ending with the rise of the Faith Militant (thanks to Cersei's misplaying of the game of thrones) will have a major impact on the endgame.

The Jaime-Riverrun storyline is also quite good.

Brienne's story, while maybe a bit dragged out, has awesome moments and really gives us a wider perspective on GRRM's wonderful world of Westeros. Her chapter with Dick Crabb and the search for the "fool" is probably my favorite in the whole series. So beautifully written, and so moving and sad.

And wow, does her story in this book end with a bang. She definitely has an important role still yet to play.

I hate the Iron Islanders, too, but I see their role in the overall plot as an antagonist to Dany. I hope we see her just wipe them the **** out. Will make Dany much more sympathetic and likable. I want to see Damphair roasted in dragon flame while pathetically screaming for his Drowned God to save him. :)

The Dorne stuff is the least interesting part of the book to me, but I understand that they will also have a purpose, probably helping Dany overcome some obstacles and ****ing up the Lannisters.

The Arya stuff was okay, but I don't find Braavos too interesting. (I really prefer Westeros to the East.) Obviously her story here is set up for an important assassination assignment she will get that will severely test her identity as a Stark. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Faceless Men are more sinister than they appear to be. (They could very well be serving the Great Other. I have a theory on this, but I won't bore you with it now. :) )

The Sam / Oldtown storyline was very cool and will obviously have a major impact on the endgame. Wish we'd gotten more of it.

The point of my rambling here is that if Feast is "bad" and Dance is "similar", then bring it on, baby!

I have very strong faith in GRRM's writing abilities and his vision for the story. I don't think

anything in the books is really "filler" or unrelated to the overall plot.

I expect Dance to be nothing short of great, and I think people are worrying WAY too much about it. The worst part about Dance will undoubtedly be the fact that it will end, and we will have to wait xxx years for Winds!

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