[BOOK SPOILERS] Battles

[julandro]

Sorry, but it's a bit disappointing that not show a battle

[pixelchild]

And I would rather flap my arms and fly. You can't always get what you want.

In the world of magic fairy dust land, HBO will sprinkle a few hundred million dollars per season and make your wishes come true. Not happening here.

Remember, GRRM designed the freakin' story to be unfilmable, out of his frustrations with the limitations he saw in Hollywood. The story GRRM wrote CAN. NOT. BE. FILMED. It can however, be adapted. The epic scale of the battles can, will and must be lost. George understands it. I understand it. Many other folks here understand it. But some here just refuse to get it.

In the world of make-believe I can be the astronaut-rockstar-princess-physicist-karate master-neurosurgeon I always dreamed I'd be. But here and now, we get what we get and we can either like it or not. But whining isn't going to change that.

do you think if enough complaints come in, they'll at least use cgi for the battles in CoT, etC?

[Nihilist]

And I would rather flap my arms and fly. You can't always get what you want.

In the world of magic fairy dust land, HBO will sprinkle a few hundred million dollars per season and make your wishes come true. Not happening here.

Remember, GRRM designed the freakin' story to be unfilmable, out of his frustrations with the limitations he saw in Hollywood. The story GRRM wrote CAN. NOT. BE. FILMED. It can however, be adapted. The epic scale of the battles can, will and must be lost. George understands it. I understand it. Many other folks here understand it. But some here just refuse to get it.

In the world of make-believe I can be the astronaut-rockstar-princess-physicist-karate master-neurosurgeon I always dreamed I'd be. But here and now, we get what we get and we can either like it or not. But whining isn't going to change that.

This is an utterly ridiculous post. No one is expecting Braveheart style scenes. We are, however, shocked by the way they handled the battles.

Battle of the Green Fork

- We are given no description on what is actually happening. Would it have hurt to have a scene explaining Tyrion is on the left with Ser Gregor(we only get that Tyrion is in the vanguard..), Kevan commanding the middle, and Addam commanding the right, with his father commanding the reserve? This gives us a SENSE of the battle without having to use any of your PIXY dust.

- Why not have a meeting with Ser Gregor where he says his infamous "Hold the river if you can" line. It actually tells us what Tyrion is doing and we need not see any battling at all(this could have happened in the camp and didn't even need to be on the battlefield!).

- Tyrion gets knocked out and then appears in the cart? I watched with 5 people who didn't read the books and all of them thought he slept through the battle...Poor editing and writing.

- We are expected to believe that Tywin can't tell the difference between 2,000 and 20,000 troops? Really?

Whispering Woods

- Easiest battle to film in the entire series. Woods + darkness and fog. How could they have passed up the chance to at least film Jaime Lannister calling out Robb's name? Or perhaps a scene where Jaime is leading his party to catch the "small force" and then sees Robb riding down(close-up of Robb and Jaime). We don't even get a DESCRIPTION of the battle from Catelyn, who is describing it in the book(though she does not see it). Even the seen we DO GET doesn't give us the information that its corresponding scene in the book does.

These battles were simply disastrously filmed.

[Abaddon]

This is an utterly ridiculous post.

You're right, your post is utterly ridiculous. Thanks for summing it up so succinctly off the bat so I could skim the rest.

[Grack21]

And that example I gave just proves that he doesn't have creative control. At the end of the say it's all up to the producers who can cut whatever they want. Try comprehending what I write before you mouth off.

Bsssst. Wrong. No where does he say he was upset that the scene was cut. It's been obvious from day one he's in charge. And if you really think they're going to cut an entire episode written by GRRM then well, you're kidding yourself.

[So1ar]

Bsssst. Wrong. No where does he say he was upset that the scene was cut. It's been obvious from day one he's in charge. And if you really think they're going to cut an entire episode written by GRRM then well, you're kidding yourself.

actually he's not in charge. george has said so several times. he can have some input in a few decisions that are made such as casting etc., but he is not calling all the shots. i don't think anyone believes they'll cut an entire episode he's writing. he is writing the blackwater episode afterall, but they will cut anything that is seen as too expensive.

having said that, episode 8 was still the best episode so far imo. this one should have been, but failed because of the battles. imo it's not so much that we didn't get to see any actual fighting(which would have been nice) but they way the greenfork and the whispering wood were set up. if you're not going to show the battle at least describe what is about to happen. for instance, we could have seen tywin giving commands from the reserves(and a quick 5 second view of large forces marching with banners flapping everywhere?) and asking, "where is the young wolf?" cue robb in front of a small force of calvary at night describing the plan to capture jaime. *sigh* i digress.

[Cot]

Best episode for me so far, with the Aemon/Jon scene the highlight, beautifully done.

I'm annoyed by the lack of a big setpiece, not because I'm an action fanboy. However, the problem is, if you have build up, like this series has had for the last two episodes, you have to have a climax, a pay off. Yes, Ned's death was the climax of this episode, but it wasn't connected well enough to all the build up up North. That was the biggest disappointment to me. If we had the climax being a smaller skirmish with Jaime being captured, or the Green Fork in its entirety, or even the relief of Riverrun, would have been the perfect episode.

As it didn't i had this feeling something was lacking. And they can do epic, i thought the Twins was really well done for example.

Still great episode, but hope they splurge more next season.

[The King of Ashes]

This episode is going to turn a lot of people away from the series for two reasons. The first is that Sean Bean fan's will have lost Ned and be put off, but that can't be helped.

The second reason is the clear sign the producers have sent us on the direction they're gonna go with battles. I know a lot of people who were watching game of thrones because they like medieval warfare and combat and were itching for some action but this episode has let them know they're not gonna get it. I'm not even that bothered about battle scenes but it still left a sour taste considering how easy it would have been to do Whispering Wood well and how any get out clause would have been better for the Green Fork than Tyrion sleeping through it. It all felt ridiculous and, for me, was the only disappointing episode this season.

[Greywolf2375]

I haven't nitpicked anything all season but now I'm seriously disappointed. I feel scammed. If they can't show a minor battle they're not going to be able to do any of the best scenes justice. They should've waited until technology was cheap enough to do it right or not do it at all.

I'm not sure how this logic follows. Just because they did not show the battles in this episode doesn't mean they won't be able to do Blackwater or something else later in the series due service.

I asked my wife - who has read the books but doesn't remember them exceptionally well - if she felt anything was missing or out of place. She thought Shae acted differently. didn't remember Robb being as forceful and character wise developed. Nothing about the battles - she got what she needed from seeing the ends with Rodrick and Catelyn and seeing Tyrion (with the Halfman! chant which I thought was great).

We've made hundreds of posts about the sexposition, why did we need to have scenes of the battles when in and of themselves they do not put forward the plot - all ready being shoehorned into less than an hour?

[Morrigan]

I understand all the budget reasons, and no one should have been expecting big Gladiator/Braveheart-style battles.

But how hard could it have been to show a few men and riders running through the woods, hearing the "whispers" of the clash of metal, and seeing Jaime cut his way through a few men before getting close to Robb? You didn't have to do much, that would have been plenty really, and it would have shown what a formidable knight Jaime is.

And for the Green Fork, it was already pretty chaotic from Tyrion's POV. Just show him surrounded by the clangor and the mess and stumbling about and surviving through luck (kind of like the battle against the hill tribe), with intelligent camerawork it need not be big or expensive at all.

[Grumkin]

I can understand their reasoning for the unseen battles: why spend millions of dollars of our limited budget just to get a half-decent battle scene, then moments later upstage it with the most dramatic scene of the entire season? The final scene was going to trump any kind of battle they could have filmed. Next season, the battle of the blackwater won't have this kind of ultra-dramatic moment to lean on; it will have to stand on it's own, so I think we'll see some action.

[Ser Warpechowski]

I wonder if the tv show will have any effect on the way George writes ASOIAF. Will he make his future battle scenes in ASOIAF smaller scale so he can pander a possible adaptation of his future novels if Game of Thrones is renewed for a 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th season?

No.

He wrote AsoiaF because he was pissed off that he could never do things properly on TV. That is why the books have so much details: He didnt care one bit about restrictions.

[Ser Warpechowski]

This episode is going to turn a lot of people away from the series for two reasons. The first is that Sean Bean fan's will have lost Ned and be put off, but that can't be helped.

The second reason is the clear sign the producers have sent us on the direction they're gonna go with battles. I know a lot of people who were watching game of thrones because they like medieval warfare and combat and were itching for some action but this episode has let them know they're not gonna get it. I'm not even that bothered about battle scenes but it still left a sour taste considering how easy it would have been to do Whispering Wood well and how any get out clause would have been better for the Green Fork than Tyrion sleeping through it. It all felt ridiculous and, for me, was the only disappointing episode this season.

Cant you even get Robb in a table discussing strategy with his bannerman? That would take 2 minutes or less. Yet they spent so much time in Tyrions fucking drinking game.

[Ser Warpechowski]

I can understand their reasoning for the unseen battles: why spend millions of dollars of our limited budget just to get a half-decent battle scene, then moments later upstage it with the most dramatic scene of the entire season? The final scene was going to trump any kind of battle they could have filmed. Next season, the battle of the blackwater won't have this kind of ultra-dramatic moment to lean on; it will have to stand on it's own, so I think we'll see some action.

Well it would be amazing if they compared Robb´s great moment of triumph with his father being beheaded.

Yet they not only didnt show the battle but also gave Robb the lamest speach ever.

[SerArthurHeath]

The thing with WW is it's a frigging night battle- it's about the only time they can convincingly do a battle scene and pull it off without worrying about the size of armies etc. So they skipped it...

[The Knight of Grasses]

This is an utterly ridiculous post. No one is expecting Braveheart style scenes. We are, however, shocked by the way they handled the battles.

Battle of the Green Fork

- We are given no description on what is actually happening. Would it have hurt to have a scene explaining Tyrion is on the left with Ser Gregor(we only get that Tyrion is in the vanguard..), Kevan commanding the middle, and Addam commanding the right, with his father commanding the reserve? This gives us a SENSE of the battle without having to use any of your PIXY dust.

- Why not have a meeting with Ser Gregor where he says his infamous "Hold the river if you can" line. It actually tells us what Tyrion is doing and we need not see any battling at all(this could have happened in the camp and didn't even need to be on the battlefield!).

- Tyrion gets knocked out and then appears in the cart? I watched with 5 people who didn't read the books and all of them thought he slept through the battle...Poor editing and writing.

- We are expected to believe that Tywin can't tell the difference between 2,000 and 20,000 troops? Really?

- We are given a sense of the battle by the visual of the battlefield at the end. The things you mentioned are just not important. We already know Tyrion (a character we care about) was supposed to be in the van. The others just don't matter. I'm not sure we even know who Adam Marbrand is at this point.

- Again, we know Tyrion is in the van. It might have been nice to see The Mountain, just to emphasize that he's Tywin's blunt instrument, but otherwise, it's not important.

- I thought it was pretty clear that Tyrion had been unconscious the whole time. I don't know why anyone would assume he was sleeping. We saw the hammer crack him in the head.

- This was the point of the scout that Robb let go last episode, as well as the ravens they shot down coming out of the Twins. Tywin's scout had informed him of the 20k figure (heck, maybe even more than one scout had reported back) prior to Robb splitting the army. Once battle was joined, Tywin probably figured it out pretty quickly, but Robb's whole strategy was to deceive Tywin, and it worked. I don't find it that hard to believe.

Whispering Woods

- Easiest battle to film in the entire series. Woods + darkness and fog. How could they have passed up the chance to at least film Jaime Lannister calling out Robb's name? Or perhaps a scene where Jaime is leading his party to catch the "small force" and then sees Robb riding down(close-up of Robb and Jaime). We don't even get a DESCRIPTION of the battle from Catelyn, who is describing it in the book(though she does not see it). Even the seen we DO GET doesn't give us the information that its corresponding scene in the book does.

It wasn't a dealbreaker for me, but I do agree that the Whispering Wood was a lost opportunity. They could have shown Jaime's prowess, more of Grey Wind, and explained what Robb was trying to do a bit better without breaking the bank on a large scale battle.

[Xanderpanda]

I've said it before in this thread and I'll say it again. This day in age it is not that hard to show a battle on a cable budget. Showtime has had no trouble showing large scale battles and armies in multiple scenes in more then one of there shows. Shows whose budgets have been lower then GoT. It is very possible to show decent enough shots for a few seconds so the audience can see the scale of the war taking place.

[TamTam Rapley]

Season 2 Blackwater predictions. To all those saying that HBO won't screw us over on the Blackwater. Here's how they'll do it.

The Hound tells Tyrion of the horrors outside the walls and deserts. Then a long talking scene with Sansa happens. Tyrion gives a long speech to his men and is seen charging out of the gates with his men. Fade to black. He wakes up in a bed and Pod tells him of his heroic deeds and how Renly's ghost saved the day. Davos gives a long speech and then commands his lone ship to enter fiery haze with everything obscured by smoke. Fade to black. He wakes up in Sallador's ship and is told of what happened. No actual fighting happens.

I'll repost this after the Blackwater airs.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Enough with the sniping at each other please.

[/MOD]

[Nihilist]

- We are given a sense of the battle by the visual of the battlefield at the end. The things you mentioned are just not important. We already know Tyrion (a character we care about) was supposed to be in the van. The others just don't matter. I'm not sure we even know who Adam Marbrand is at this point.

We are not given a sense of the battle. We are given a sense of the AFTERMATH of the battle. How does showing a bunch of dead bodies on a field give us any idea of what actually took place? Even a couple lines between Tyrion and Tywin about what actually HAPPENED in the battle would have helped. Addam Marbrand is mentioned when Tywin gets the report that Robb is moving to meet him. So this wouldn't have been the first time he is even mentioned. I find the position, that mentioning a few specifics about the battle is a waste of time, ridiculous(you really needed 9+ min drinking game is that it?).

What we do have of the battle:

-Tyrion rallies his Mountain men and they run off in a direction(we don't know where they are actually going just into the battle).

-Tyrion gets knocked out by his own men.

-Tyrion wakes up on a cart. Bronn points out they won and Tyrion is a shit warrior(he isn't even a warrior it seems).

-We learn that the 2,000 sent by Robb are dead and that Tywin Lannister and his scouts need eyeglasses.

Man, I'm feeling that battle.

- Again, we know Tyrion is in the van. It might have been nice to see The Mountain, just to emphasize that he's Tywin's blunt instrument, but otherwise, it's not important.

Knowing where Tyrion is actually supposed to go on a battlefield isn't important? Nor is Tywin's positioning or strategy? If they ain't going to show us the battle why not throw us a a freaking bone?

- I thought it was pretty clear that Tyrion had been unconscious the whole time. I don't know why anyone would assume he was sleeping. We saw the hammer crack him in the head.

Hmm what are you doing when you are unconscious...sleeping. And if he was unconscious the whole time...then he never was ACTUALLY IN the battle was he?

- This was the point of the scout that Robb let go last episode, as well as the ravens they shot down coming out of the Twins. Tywin's scout had informed him of the 20k figure (heck, maybe even more than one scout had reported back) prior to Robb splitting the army. Once battle was joined, Tywin probably figured it out pretty quickly, but Robb's whole strategy was to deceive Tywin, and it worked. I don't find it that hard to believe.

So mistaking a force 1/10th the size of the actual force is believable? The whole ruse works in the books because Robb commits the MAJORITY of his forces to the battle. This way simply makes no sense. Any non-retard would have scouts for miles around his encampment. How these scouts can't tell the difference between 2,000 and 20,000 is mind boggling.

It wasn't a dealbreaker for me, but I do agree that the Whispering Wood was a lost opportunity. They could have shown Jaime's prowess, more of Grey Wind, and explained what Robb was trying to do a bit better without breaking the bank on a large scale battle.

On that at least, we agree. Except the deal breaker part. It was a deal breaker for me.