[BOOK SPOILERS] Battles

[Tywin's bastard]

Which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. In the books, Robb sends the majority of his force against Tywin and Bolton tries to attack them in surprise(they forced marched during the night) trying to catch him off guard. Tywin of course had scouts that spotted this host coming, but since it was the majority of the Stark host, they did not think to go "hey where are all those other guys?".

Tywin has a host of 30,000 men, and 2,000 march on him? How do his scouts not tell him that? Are we to believe he DOESN'T have scouts for miles around? So what exactly is the difference between him and Stafford Lannister? Whose mistakes of not posting sentries is vilified by pretty much everyone in the books...In fact, that would make Tywin even MORE of an idiot than Uncle Dolt. Since Dolty was actually in Lannister territory.

Completely unbelievable.

The scouting issue is in both the book and the show as the northmen come very close to Tywin's army before they are spotted, which causes a mild panic.

As for the numbers, the northmen are likely travelling through the forest that we see (they are coming out of the forest in the book as well to hide their numbers, IIRC), which makes it harder to see if the vanguard is alone. Since they also came so close before they were spotted the scouts might have panicked since they need to warn Tywin as soon as possible, instead of estimating the force which already has been done.

There's a lot of things that need to happen for it to work but I do think you have been forgetting things in your estimation.

[SerArthurHeath]

...if one were to take those opportunities, sure. My read on the matter is that Tywin is so confident that the "green boy" is coming head on with all of his forces, and he knows how many forces he has, that he doesn't feel a need to do any more extensive scouting. Robb's decoy force also steals a march on him (thus the early arrival) and by the time they are engaged it's far too late for them to do anything other than go through with the 'fight' (with such a small force, likely to be more of a slaughter).

Tywin has an over-inflated reputation as a commander, and he shows it here by grossly under-estimating his opponent and taking the bait that is laid out before him. Makes sense to me.

There's underestimating and then there's ignoring the basic rules of military strategy, and this would be the latter...

[Nihilist]

The scouting issue is in both the book and the show as the northmen come very close to Tywin's army before they are spotted, which causes a mild panic.

As for the numbers, the northmen are likely travelling through the forest that we see (they are coming out of the forest in the book as well to hide their numbers, IIRC), which makes it harder to see if the vanguard is alone. Since they also came so close before they were spotted the scouts might have panicked since they need to warn Tywin as soon as possible, instead of estimating the force which already has been done.

There's a lot of things that need to happen for it to work but I do think you have been forgetting things in your estimation.

Close as in miles away! And forests or no forests trained scouts should be able to tell the SIGNIFICANT difference between 2,000 and 20,000.

How the land is described in the books;

"The ground was rolling and uneven here; soft and muddy near the river, rising in a gentle slope toward the kingsroad, stony and broken beyond it, to the east. A few trees spotted the hillsides, but most of the land had been cleared and planted."

As for catching Tywin Lannister unaware...

"Did he think to take them unawares while the slept? Small chance of that; wahtever else might be said of him, Tywin Lannister was no man's fool."

When Tyrion sees them they are coming over a hill...not out of a forest. And his reaction...

"Gods be damned, look at them all."

So no I don't buy this "they came out of the nonexistent forest" thing.

[Tywin's bastard]

Close as in miles away! And forests or no forests trained scouts should be able to tell the SIGNIFICANT difference between 2,000 and 20,000.

How the land is described in the books;

"The ground was rolling and uneven here; soft and muddy near the river, rising in a gentle slope toward the kingsroad, stony and broken beyond it, to the east. A few trees spotted the hillsides, but most of the land had been cleared and planted."

As for catching Tywin Lannister unaware...

"Did he think to take them unawares while the slept? Small chance of that; wahtever else might be said of him, Tywin Lannister was no man's fool."

When Tyrion sees them they are coming over a hill...not out of a forest. And his reaction...

"Gods be damned, look at them all."

So no I don't buy this "they came out of the nonexistent forest" thing.

Then I remember wrong from the book but there is a forest there in the show so it's not nonexistent, given that it's the show we're discussing. Nothing says that the Lannister scouts reported 20 000 men coming either. They could have expected that other parts of the northern force were trying to flank them since the only thing we see being sent out is the vanguard.

And they didn't catch him unaware (no one has said that either) but they came close earlier than the Lannisters had expected. If someone has stolen a night's march on you you've screwed up. And Tywin was Robb's fool because he sat there and waited for him because he underestimated his intelligence. He was known as a great commander but he didn't really show it in that part of the book, or the show.

And in the end you don't have to buy anything. There's tons of things that require suspension of disbelief, both in the show and in the books, and we all decide how far we're willing to go to do that.

[Caligula_K]

Whoa. I think everybody needs to take a chill pill.

Yes, it's too bad we didn't at least get a part of the Whispering Woods. It would have been fun to watch Jaime trying to get at Robb, taking down a couple of extras (Karstarks) along the way. But does this really ruin the entire episode, an episode which had some of the best scenes of the entire season?

And no need to get over-dramatic. Just because they didn't show these battles does not mean the same will happen to the Blackwater. Rome may not have had any battle scenes in its first season, but the producers did the battle of Philippi some justice due to its importance in the narrative. The battle of Blackwater is the climax to A Clash of Kings in a way which Whispering Woods and Green Fork are definitely not to A Game of Thrones. And there is an entire episode called Blackwater being written by Martin. It may not be the BIGGEST BATTLE SCENE EVER!!!!! but it will be a battle scene.

[Leuf]

The thing that bothers me about the 2000 men is why would they rush down to fight Tywin? Why even send anyone? In the books Tywin is made to believe that Robb's entire army is attacking him so that he can't get any warning to Jaime's forces, and there's at least a small chance that Tywin will be defeated as well even though that's not the main goal. So why have the 2000 men rush down there overnight so that Tywin can figure out Robb's army is somewhere else after dispatching them that much faster? What the hell is the point of sending those 2000 men to die? By the time Tywin got up to the Twins area and found out that Robb's army isn't where it's supposed to be the battle would already be over. Rather than dividing his forces being a really clever move that doesn't quite work out as best it could have, Robb just stupidly sends 2000 men off to die for no reason other than to confuse the audience into thinking the Lannisters have won for 5 seconds.

[bcshelton72]

These battles were simply disastrously filmed.

I could not agree with your post more. You are exactly right.

GIVEN the budget limitations of adaptation, they handled it very poorly. There is substantial drama and character development in both the battles that were not shown in Episode 9.

To all the apologists, these comments are not whining. They are criticism that can possibly help D&D improve their adaptation of A Clash of Kings.

Or do you want to see a "clashless" Clash of Kings? Did I simply imagine the phrase "WAR of the five kings"?

[RSasoiaf]

And you guys are forgetting the most important part of the strategy change.....you are forgetting what was the objective of Bolton.

The objective was to give battle but not to comit too much. Why??? Because Bolton´s force has to keep itself alive in order to keep Tywin off the balance. Bolton need´s to have a force able to screen Tywin and harass his comunication lines and what not.

If we now have Tywin Lannister commanding 30.000 men and totally free to act, the implications are interesting, he can now surround the Twins and convince the Freys to turn to his side. There´s no more Frey infantry nearby to help so the 400 men guard at the Twins will be trying to hold the fortress against 30.000......hmmmm......no matter how strong the Twins are, 400 against 30.000??? And with Lord Frey commanding??? Tywin will be lord of the Twins as soon as he wants.

So now Robb doesnt even need to mess everything up with Jeyne. By the time Tywin forces Lord Frey to turn side, the Frey men with Robb will leave him. After that, he will get in the same trouble much sooner then in the books.

The importance of Bolton´s force staying alive was paramount to the whole strategy! And that was also why he didnt pick Theon for the job. Theon could well beat Tywin but he could also fight to the death and loose the whole force.

Also, the danger in Robb´s plan was a lot greater in the series. If he justs leaves 2.000 men behind.....if Tywin finds out he can just go after Robb and cruch him from behind when he faces Jaime. From a military point of view, Robb´s strategy in the TV is too risky and totally deppends on the fact that Tywin will never realize how many men he has in front of him. If Tywin realizes, he just has to persue Robb while getting in touch with Jaime in order to cruch the enemy bettween them. And this danger is really big if consider that Robb is now moving slowly because he is advancing with is infantry also to Riverrun. And I do not suppose he has a corp of Napoleon´s army or Stonewalls foot cavalry with him ;)

[Ser Warpechowski]

...if one were to take those opportunities, sure. My read on the matter is that Tywin is so confident that the "green boy" is coming head on with all of his forces, and he knows how many forces he has, that he doesn't feel a need to do any more extensive scouting. Robb's decoy force also steals a march on him (thus the early arrival) and by the time they are engaged it's far too late for them to do anything other than go through with the 'fight' (with such a small force, likely to be more of a slaughter).

Tywin has an over-inflated reputation as a commander, and he shows it here by grossly under-estimating his opponent and taking the bait that is laid out before him. Makes sense to me.

For me it doesnt. A bit earlier they say that the enemy forces are about one day walking distance. If they saw these forces they would at least be able to know it wasnt 20.000 or even 5.000 troops.

EVERY ARMY has scouts. Its one of the basics of warfare. Most generals even have spies in other armies among the camp folowers. Sun Tzu knew that 2500 years ago. With 8.000 years of MEDIEVAL warfare Im pretty sure Westero´s generals would know about that.

The only, only possible way they would be so confused is if all of Tywin´s scouts were dead or they were given false information (double agents).

[Ser Warpechowski]

The scouting issue is in both the book and the show as the northmen come very close to Tywin's army before they are spotted, which causes a mild panic.

As for the numbers, the northmen are likely travelling through the forest that we see (they are coming out of the forest in the book as well to hide their numbers, IIRC), which makes it harder to see if the vanguard is alone. Since they also came so close before they were spotted the scouts might have panicked since they need to warn Tywin as soon as possible, instead of estimating the force which already has been done.

There's a lot of things that need to happen for it to work but I do think you have been forgetting things in your estimation.

If they had scouts before Robb´s forces even split, how much time they would have after that? Days, weeks? Months? IM pretty sure that is enough time.

Another possibility is that Tywin knows its only 2.000 and sends Tyrion in the Van because he knows the battle will be easy and that is a good way to test him. That is why Tywin doesnt know its only 2.000.

Anyway, a 2.000 men suicidal force is a stupid concept anyway. Why atack like that, why waste so many man? You acomplish nothing. You could delay the enemy a few hours, but nothing beside that. It wouldnt be enough time to change the war strategy. Even with surprise you wouldnt be able to win when you´re 15 to 1, unless youre able to rout the enemy, and to do do that they would need to atack in the night, not in the morning.

The 2.000 army concept is uterly ridiculous.

[Ser Warpechowski]

The thing that bothers me about the 2000 men is why would they rush down to fight Tywin? Why even send anyone? In the books Tywin is made to believe that Robb's entire army is attacking him so that he can't get any warning to Jaime's forces, and there's at least a small chance that Tywin will be defeated as well even though that's not the main goal. So why have the 2000 men rush down there overnight so that Tywin can figure out Robb's army is somewhere else after dispatching them that much faster? What the hell is the point of sending those 2000 men to die? By the time Tywin got up to the Twins area and found out that Robb's army isn't where it's supposed to be the battle would already be over. Rather than dividing his forces being a really clever move that doesn't quite work out as best it could have, Robb just stupidly sends 2000 men off to die for no reason other than to confuse the audience into thinking the Lannisters have won for 5 seconds.

Exactly.

You acomplish nothing by atacking. Ok, you´ve made them believe Robb is coming in force to atack Tywin. But why atack? I doubt any general or comander would waste 2.000 troops for absolutely nothing.

In the book Roose atacks but retreat in an ordely fashion quite soon and before his troops rout. Yet he only atacked in the first place because he still had a chance since he was only outnumbered 2 to 1, which isnt such a big disavantage if you control other variables (morale, army disposition, landscape, weather etc).

[Leuf]

If we now have Tywin Lannister commanding 30.000 men and totally free to act, the implications are interesting, he can now surround the Twins and convince the Freys to turn to his side. There´s no more Frey infantry nearby to help so the 400 men guard at the Twins will be trying to hold the fortress against 30.000......hmmmm......no matter how strong the Twins are, 400 against 30.000??? And with Lord Frey commanding??? Tywin will be lord of the Twins as soon as he wants.

Robb isn't on the moon. He can get to the Twins in plenty of time to reinforce it and then fight Tywin from a superior position. Tywin can't cross the river or pass Moat Cailin, and he also can't really forget about the Vale either who could decide to come out to play. He'll still go back to Harrenhall. They aren't going to rewrite the whole series.

Also, the danger in Robb´s plan was a lot greater in the series. If he justs leaves 2.000 men behind.....if Tywin finds out he can just go after Robb and cruch him from behind when he faces Jaime.

Tywin is on the wrong side of the Trident. He can't get there before the battle is over, unless he finds out well in advance. Which is why it makes no sense why the 2000 man force runs down there as fast as they can to let him know.

[RSasoiaf]

Robb isn't on the moon. He can get to the Twins in plenty of time to reinforce it and then fight Tywin from a superior position. Tywin can't cross the river or pass Moat Cailin, and he also can't really forget about the Vale either who could decide to come out to play. He'll still go back to Harrenhall. They aren't going to rewrite the whole series.

Tywin is on the wrong side of the Trident. He can't get there before the battle is over, unless he finds out well in advance. Which is why it makes no sense why the 2000 man force runs down there as fast as they can to let him know.

Robb is in bettween 2 oposing armies, moving his whole force which will make him loose speed. Tywin and Jaime just have to give him battle somewhere with one half and surprise him in the back with some cavalry from the other half. Pretty much what Robb did to Jaime....just now Robb is also in danger of suffering that because he is no more commanding a fast cavalry force.

He will not be able to reinforce the Twins in time unless he splits his army again, which will give Tywin another nice detachment to kill. Also, we all know Lord Frey and i would like to see how much time it would take for him to give the Twins to the Lannisters if he was left alone with 400 guards against Tywin ;)

Also, his move on Jaime will have to be slower giving more time for Jaime to react. That is really the problem! To make a surprise cavalry assault from the Twins to Riverrun is plausible.....to make a surprise full army assault on the same distance is impossible. They will take time and can be spotted on the way. Also Tywin can spot the split and follow them or go for the Twins. If Tywin is free, he is free....there´s nothing to be done about that. You just left a 30.000 men army free on your back so good luck with that! Just hope that commander decides to sit there and do nothing......hopefully he will....for no apparent reason but ok :P

And there is a reason why Tywin is on the "wrong side". He is on te side of the road, which is usually where big armies travel faster. I can assure you it will not be easy for Robb to get his full army straight from the Twins to Riverrun doing cross country. That is why his choice was to take only a smaller fast and mobile cavalry force, easier to go around woods and stuff like that.

Regardng Moat Caillin:

You seem to think it´s defended to stop a 30.000 army. I am sorry to disagree but the Greyjoy invasion shows that nothing in Winterfell is currently ready to face a real army. The only real seizable forces the North has are now with Robb. Yes, they can get some forces if they do look around, but it´s a bit optimistic to think they can find anything that could stop Tywins army. Once they remove Bolton from the equation, there´s nothing bettween Tywin and Winterfell, or at least nothing strong enough.

That said, i tell you what i would do if i was Tywin:

- Quickly inform Jaime of Robb´s movement and tell Jaime to adapt defensive formations and wait for Robb, his orders will be just to keep the road open for our comunications so that we keep the axis Riverrun / Harrenhall / Tywin allways free.

- Move all my infantry to press the Twins. This will either make Lord Frey turn to my side or force Robb to change plans and now trully split his forces. If he splits, now we will be watching and Jaime will be aware of Robb being nearby so Jaime just have to take the oportunity if it presents itself. The trick is that we control the roads so we will be able to send messengers and comunicate faster then Robb can move his force (even if he is moving them on a shorter distance their speed is allways far slower then cavalry).

- After i secure the Twins, make Lord Frey call his men back depleating Robb´s force. Once the Frey allegiance is secured, march North to Winterfell and tell Jaime to crush Robb if he hasnt done it already. Remember that with no surprise effect, Robb has 20.000 against Jaime´s 30.000. I doubt Riverrun will send any help as they will be without any info on wha´s going on and will need time to organize themselves and think what to do next.

[The Knight of Grasses]

If you don’t think about it too much, the battle with Tywin’s forces works. His scouts see the Northern army and count to 20,000. They report back to Tywin. As soon as the scouts depart, Robb splits off his 18,000 men and heads to the Twins. The 2,000 he left behind attacks before they can be re-scouted.

Here’s the problem – Tywin knows where the army is because it’s said that the northern army “steals a night’s march.” Which means that scouts knew where they were the night before, and, presumably, knew how many guys were there. So this only works if Robb split the army the night before they attacked, which means that the trip to the Twins takes less than a day. And the subsequent trip from the Twins to the Whispering Wood takes less than a day. Obviously this is a pretty messed up timeline, because now that means that Tywin could hustle his army up to the Twins and have them besieged before Robb can send more men back to detain him.

Ugh, I was fine with this until I started reading these comments! Now I’m all annoyed!

[Tywin's bastard]

If they had scouts before Robb´s forces even split, how much time they would have after that? Days, weeks? Months? IM pretty sure that is enough time.

Another possibility is that Tywin knows its only 2.000 and sends Tyrion in the Van because he knows the battle will be easy and that is a good way to test him. That is why Tywin doesnt know its only 2.000.

Anyway, a 2.000 men suicidal force is a stupid concept anyway. Why atack like that, why waste so many man? You acomplish nothing. You could delay the enemy a few hours, but nothing beside that. It wouldnt be enough time to change the war strategy. Even with surprise you wouldnt be able to win when you´re 15 to 1, unless youre able to rout the enemy, and to do do that they would need to atack in the night, not in the morning.

The 2.000 army concept is uterly ridiculous.

I don't know what you're talking about. The northern host steals a day's march on them in both the book and the show so apparently there weren't any scouts watching them until they were very close, otherwise Tywin's host would have known much earlier as a single scout can travel much quicker than the host.

The point of sending so few is a far better complaint than what the other poster did. The host sent against Tywin was obviously never intended to have any chance in neither the book or the show, but the 2000 men can't delay them as long. Then again there were perhaps not the same kind of delay necessary since in the show Tywin's host is obviously basically on the same side of the Trident as Riverrun in the show, and not as far away either. It seems more like something to occupy Tywin at the very same time as Robb attacks Jaime.

Tywin is on the wrong side of the Trident. He can't get there before the battle is over, unless he finds out well in advance. Which is why it makes no sense why the 2000 man force runs down there as fast as they can to let him know.

No, Tywin is not on the wrong side of the Trident in the show. In episode 8 they talk about the two choices, attacking Tywin and attacking Jaime, and they say that they need to cross the Trident in order to do either, plus that we see the pieces representing the armies on the map showing Tywin much closer to Riverrun. In episode 9 we also see the forces split after they've crossed.

[Leuf]

Robb is in bettween 2 oposing armies

Jaime's army is already destroyed. This is ambiguous on the show so perhaps only the Whispering Wood battles has happened in ep 9 and the rest will be in ep 10, but I don't see why they would split the battle into two when they aren't showing any battles. Yes it doesn't make any sense that Robb is able to surprise Jaime with his full army on foot, but that is what happens on the show.

So Robb is at Riverrun, and is reinforced by the remnants of the Tully army. Tywin isn't going to have an easy time taking him.

Meanwhile Tywin has the only remaining standing army of the Lannisters and he doesn't just have Robb to worry about. He also needs to be in a position to defend King's Landing against anyone else. It does him no good to be up at Riverrun with Robb's head on a pike if Stannis and/or Renly can just march right over to King's Landing uncontested. Beating Robb will just make him lose to the next guy.

-Edited to fix my misunderstanding of which side of the river Tywin is on in the show

[Leuf]

No, Tywin is not on the wrong side of the Trident in the show. In episode 8 they talk about the two choices, attacking Tywin and attacking Jaime, and they say that they need to cross the Trident in order to do either, plus that we see the pieces representing the armies on the map showing Tywin much closer to Riverrun. In episode 9 we also see the forces split after they've crossed.

Okay I missed that, and the map goes by so fast I didn't have time to make sense of it. I reread the part in the book where Robb describes his plan and some of the dialog in ep 8 is straight from that (which makes sense given who wrote it), the parts about going around Tywin to get to Riverrun and risking being caught between the two armies. But he definitely says he is going to march his foot down the Kingsroad in the book and put the river between Jaime and Tywin. I guess I can buy that the 2000 men are to keep Tywin busy so he can't reinforce Jaime just in case word gets to him.

So that's a big difference, and it makes the whole moment of suspense whether Tywin has defeated Robb make much more sense to me. And the only way they can have that is to have Tywin on the same side of the river, so that's the whole reason for changing it. I think the nonbookreaders had it much easier as you miss one little detail that conflicts with the books and the whole thing doesn't make sense anymore.

[Ser Warpechowski]

I don't know what you're talking about. The northern host steals a day's march on them in both the book and the show so apparently there weren't any scouts watching them until they were very close, otherwise Tywin's host would have known much earlier as a single scout can travel much quicker than the host.

The point of sending so few is a far better complaint than what the other poster did. The host sent against Tywin was obviously never intended to have any chance in neither the book or the show, but the 2000 men can't delay them as long. Then again there were perhaps not the same kind of delay necessary since in the show Tywin's host is obviously basically on the same side of the Trident as Riverrun in the show, and not as far away either. It seems more like something to occupy Tywin at the very same time as Robb attacks Jaime.

No, Tywin is not on the wrong side of the Trident in the show. In episode 8 they talk about the two choices, attacking Tywin and attacking Jaime, and they say that they need to cross the Trident in order to do either, plus that we see the pieces representing the armies on the map showing Tywin much closer to Riverrun. In episode 9 we also see the forces split after they've crossed.

Bolton had about 16.000 men, where Tywin had 30.000. Those are good odds at winning, unlike 2.000 to 30.000. If Bolton didnt had any chance he wouldnt had atacked. Also, the only way he could atack and reach them that way was if he killed some of Tywin´s scouts, which I think he did, at least in the book.

[raj34]

Will there be a battle of the camps or did they just merge it with the Whispering Wood? Pretty disappointing if we get zero battle footage out of the green fork, WW, AND battle of the camps...

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

And you guys are forgetting the most important part of the strategy change.....you are forgetting what was the objective of Bolton.

The objective was to give battle but not to comit too much. Why??? Because Bolton´s force has to keep itself alive in order to keep Tywin off the balance. Bolton need´s to have a force able to screen Tywin and harass his comunication lines and what not.

If we now have Tywin Lannister commanding 30.000 men and totally free to act, the implications are interesting, he can now surround the Twins and convince the Freys to turn to his side. There´s no more Frey infantry nearby to help so the 400 men guard at the Twins will be trying to hold the fortress against 30.000......hmmmm......no matter how strong the Twins are, 400 against 30.000??? And with Lord Frey commanding??? Tywin will be lord of the Twins as soon as he wants.

So now Robb doesnt even need to mess everything up with Jeyne. By the time Tywin forces Lord Frey to turn side, the Frey men with Robb will leave him. After that, he will get in the same trouble much sooner then in the books.

The importance of Bolton´s force staying alive was paramount to the whole strategy! And that was also why he didnt pick Theon for the job. Theon could well beat Tywin but he could also fight to the death and loose the whole force.

Also, the danger in Robb´s plan was a lot greater in the series. If he justs leaves 2.000 men behind.....if Tywin finds out he can just go after Robb and cruch him from behind when he faces Jaime. From a military point of view, Robb´s strategy in the TV is too risky and totally deppends on the fact that Tywin will never realize how many men he has in front of him. If Tywin realizes, he just has to persue Robb while getting in touch with Jaime in order to cruch the enemy bettween them. And this danger is really big if consider that Robb is now moving slowly because he is advancing with is infantry also to Riverrun. And I do not suppose he has a corp of Napoleon´s army or Stonewalls foot cavalry with him ;)

I agree with this. This is why, explaining Robb's strategy and showing WW in a creative way would have been nice. And I can't stress enough, there needed to be some counterbalance to Ned's death in this episode. We didn't get that.

I also believe the drinking game was important. Stay too close to the books, and the adaptation gets affected in a poor way sometimes.