[Book Spoilers] EP108 Discussion Part 2

[valacirca]

It didn't bother me... Despite his "escort" of tribesmen, he is still Tyrion, and he is wearing Lannister colors. Every solider must know about the Lannister dwarf, and in case they don't know his face, was I one of the Lannister men, I wouldn't take the chance to piss the Lord off because there might be ANOTHER DWARF pretending to be Tyrion and having somehow managed to steal his clothes.

It goes like this... either:

1) Tyrion was recognized, thus escorted to where his father was; or,

2) he was not, thus the advancing party of tribesmen would have met resistance.

Either way, it's just crazy that anyone would have just allowed that party to move to and through the Lannister camp without acknowledgement.

[Tywin's bastard]

Yes, that's how I felt too. As I mentioned in the other thread, I had the impression that they underestimated Syrio, and it seemed to me that the guards were nowhere near Syrio's skill level. It just emphasized how Syrio's superior technique could more than compensate for the brute force of the guards.

I've also trained in martial arts (but not competed professionally), and I think it's interesting that the martial artists I've talked to or communicated with find the scene to be more plausible than some of the critics here.

Ultimately, I think it boils down to this: Does the scene look cool? Does it entertain? If yes, then I think it should be less important whether you think it looks (extremely) realistic or not.

I don't really claim that the scene is highly realistic but rather that it doesn't stand out too much since almost no show fighting is very realistic. I fully agree with you that you need to be able to let nit-picks go and just try to be entertained since 50% of a good viewing experience lies with the viewer making sure he's open to what he sees. It of course goes extra for when you're trained in an aspect and therefor much easier sees errors actors make so you almost have to relearn to be entertained.

[valacirca]

Already in the first exchange in the book the soldiers come off as way more clumsy than they should because you should not get out of balance when you strike without the opponent doing anything to you. Being balanced while you attack is one of the most basic things you learn (granted I've competed in unarmed martial arts and not sword fighting but the principle remains). Therefor I disagree with you, especially since the book has complete freedom while the show needs the actors to actually perform.

I was not pertaining to the soldiers being clumsy (but yes they were, both in the book and show). I was pertaining to the direction and choreography - the overall adaptation of that fight scene - being clumsy.

Edited June 7, 2011 by valacirca

[tarantella]

Another thought on that line - I recognised the actor despite the huge beard, which is the sort of thing which will make it difficult for them to disguise Barristan further down the line.

Barristan was already being lazy about his secret identity if you ask me. Dropping a few letters from your name isn't that creative.

[Tywin's bastard]

I was not pertaining to the soldiers being clumsy (but yes they were, both in the book and show). I was pertaining to the direction and choreography - the overall adaptation of that fight scene - being clumsy.

But you did describe it as "great and convincing" and I maintain that I disagree that it was more convincing in the book than in the show, given the differences of the mediums.

[Patrick Tully]

My one serious complaint with the Syrio scene is actually due to their costuming choices for the Kingsguard. It the show, Trant isn't fully protected from the woooden sword by his armor.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Patrick Tully

[Senta Signora]

Let's raise a glass to Septa Mordane. Yes she's repressive and a killjoy and fosters archaic sex role stereotypes, but she died as nobly as anyone in the show. She may not be the badass Syrio is, but she gave her life for the Starks. :bowdown:

[Xenophon]

But in the show, to me anyway, I thought the line out of character with the show-Ned. Show-Ned is far more formal, far more stuffy (in Winterfell especially), far less apt to allow for informality. Thus, when Greatjon says the line it echoed in my ears all wrong. That same line worked fine in the books- not so well in the show.

Thus concludes "Rockroi Gets Defensive About a Mistake He Made Nitpicking the Show And Hopefully This Will Be a Lesson To Him to Stop Nitpicking You Ungrateful SOB Who Should Just Be Happy That the Only Sci-Fi Fantasy Book He Ever Liked Was Made Into A Movie And Get Off People's Backs. Asshole."

LOL. Loving the section titles.

But how bout this as an ad hoc justification:

The Greatjon is clearly fairly uppity. First he's telling Robb that he'll take his ball and go home if they don't play by his rules, then he's shooing all the other lords out of Robb's tent, and telling Robb what to do with the scout. So, it actually makes sense that he's talking about Ned in a disrespectful way. Most of the bannerment would call Ned "Lord Stark", but the Greatjon, with his exaggerated sense of his own importance won't stoop to such pleasantries.

Basically, Ned's mistake was that he didn't have a direwolf to teach the Greatjon manners the first time he sauntered into Winterfell and was all "what's up, Ned?".

Edited June 7, 2011 by Xenophon

[valacirca]

But you did describe it as "great and convincing" and I maintain that I disagree that it was more convincing in the book than in the show, given the differences of the mediums.

Okay then. If you're just as convinced by soldiers being incapacitated by wood smacking on their steel helmets as you are with eye-gouging, kneecap-shattering and windpipe-crushing, then I guess there's no arguing there... :dunno: Seems as different as night and day, but so be it.

[Jaime L]

-Someone else mentioned this, but the scene where we’re introduced to the Greatjohn just didn’t work very well on screen. I think they did this the best they could, but it’s just an awkward scene to pull off without subtext. Big dude we don’t know is arguing with Robb, both get angry, wolf bites off dude’s fingers, everyone laughs. It somehow made sense in the books, but it was tough to convey on TV.

I think what cracks me up is what wins over the Greatjon is that Robb's wolf takes it upon himself to maul the guy and that's what wins him over. Or maybe it was Robb's clever with the "doubtless you meant to cut my meat" line.

Still the guy lost three fingers! Fingers he probably had intentions of using at some point in the future. But there he is chuckling merrily 30 seconds later, presumably as Grey Wind proceeds to much on his finger sandwich on the floor next to him.

Moreover this is what convinces him Robb's meat is bloody tough. Robb didn't do anything! He just has a freaking direwolf for a pet. If Drogon bit off his Greatcock he'd be pledging undying loyalty to Dany screaming how she has the toughest meat of all (pun strangely unintended).

Granted I had the same issue when everyone in the books was whispering about how Jon defeated the Halfhand. Once again, dude has a direwolf. People aren't gonna give me credit for beating up Manny Pacquiao if my bear mauls him from behind. People of Westeros, stop giving credit to people for what their animals do!

Anyway this isn't a criticism of the show and I never had a problem with how it was presented in the books. It's just seeing it go down on the screen which has me revisiting the surreality of the scene. I still love the show for trying to bring the sequence to life, and if I knew how, I'd make that 3 second clip of Grey Wind biting off his fingers my avatar.

[Mya Stone]

It would usurp Alexis, Jaim?

Wow. I'll try and find a .gif for you.

[Tywin's bastard]

Okay then. If you're just as convinced by soldiers being incapacitated by wood smacking on their steel helmets as you are with eye-gouging, kneecap-shattering and windpipe-crushing, then I guess there's no arguing there... :dunno: Seems as different as night and day, but so be it.

The point was that the soldiers weren't performing on a realistic level, which is a bigger issue in a book where you have complete freedom to write exactly what you want whereas in a TV show you have various physical limitations. I'm not actually bothered by any of the two though as I can disconnect from my martial knowledge and just be entertained. Otherwise I wouldn't like either.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

Let's raise a glass to Septa Mordane. Yes she's repressive and a killjoy and fosters archaic sex role stereotypes, but she died as nobly as anyone in the show. She may not be the badass Syrio is, but she gave her life for the Starks. :bowdown:

Word.

[ser_nerdick]

I totally agree with all of these criticisms and they aren't even nitpicks to me. They're clear shortcomings of the episode. That's why I'm having a hard time swallowing all the 10's the episode has been getting on the ratings thread.

The show could star William Shatner as Ned Stark and Carrot-top as Jaime Lannister and people here would still give it a 10/10. A lot of people really, really want the show to be fantastic.

I think it's entertaining but probably tops off at about 8/10 with a few of the episodes down in the 6 range.

[Xenophon]

Granted I had the same issue when everyone in the books was whispering about how Jon defeated the Halfhand. Once again, dude has a direwolf. People aren't gonna give me credit for beating up Manny Pacquiao if my bear mauls him from behind. People of Westeros, stop giving credit to people for what their animals do!

Anyway this isn't a criticism of the show and I never had a problem with how it was presented in the books. It's just seeing it go down on the screen which has me revisiting the surreality of the scene. I still love the show for trying to bring the sequence to life, and if I knew how, I'd make that 3 second clip of Grey Wind biting off his fingers my avatar.

You have a bear! Down with Ran, Jaime L is the rightful King o' the Board!

But seriously, I agree exactly with the sentiment that it somehow seemed more silly on screen than in print. That's why I'm glad the Greatjon got a few more lines at the end of the episode--it made him less the character who ends up laughing about losing half his hand.

[Arya The Assassin]

The way Syrio disables the guards in the show is mostly just by whacking them in areas that shouldn't make them end up severely injured

You don't need to severely injure a person in order to make that person fall to the ground (or become disoriented). Depending on where you hit a person, only a small(er) amount of force might be necessary (in the TV show, two guards went down because they were hit under the knees from behind).

Besides, I've not said that they were severely injured: I said that they went down and were only temporarily taken out. The exception was the guard who was hit in the throat with a wooden sword. This would cause minor, if not major or lethal injuries. And I hardly think the guy who was hit in the head with the longsword (by one of his own men) felt too eager to continue the fight either.

If Syrio really wanted to severely injure the guards or kill them, he would have to do more than just make them fall, slow them down and keep them off-balance. But that was not his primary objective: Since he faced multiple foes, he had to constantly be in motion and be prepared for the next attack. He couldn't afford to spend too much time on a single opponent (as he would've done in one-to-one combat).

Showing someone whack several armored guards in the head causing them to lay disabled is totally unconvincing

Try this experiment: Wear a helmet and let someone hit you in the head with a bat when you're not prepared (actually, I don't recommend this at all...). What do you think is more likely: That you'll stand upright or that you'll become disoriented, lose your balance and fall to the ground? The helmet will save your life and probably prevent injuries, but you'll still feel the force of the blow.

Besides, the guards were not (permanently) disabled. In fact, most of them got up before the fight was finished, and all of them (except the guy who had his throat whacked) was moving around when Syrio faced the commander.

I guess we could discuss this until the Wall melts, and I don't mind that we see things differently. However, I do think it's less constructive, so to speak, when people make rather bombastic conclusions and speak their opinions as if they were facts ("totally implausible", "totally unconvincing", etc.)

[daniaone]

I have been following the threads and posts since before the start of the series and have had a great time with all of your thoughts, questions, opinions and ideas.

I have not re-read the series and am fuzzy in a few areas but it is all coming back quickly. I know this sounds naive but I am a Northerner at heart and loved the Starks so much I don't want to watch the next few episodes as I know what is going to happen. No chance of them changing that is there!!!

[Mya Stone]

Anyway this isn't a criticism of the show and I never had a problem with how it was presented in the books. It's just seeing it go down on the screen which has me revisiting the surreality of the scene. I still love the show for trying to bring the sequence to life, and if I knew how, I'd make that 3 second clip of Grey Wind biting off his fingers my avatar.

You are so my bitch. :kiss:

[Jaime L]

It would usurp Alexis, Jaim?

Wow. I'll try and find a .gif for you.

Yep. Gotta say, My, felt pretty inspired by that scene.

It changed my view on...everything.

You have a bear! Down with Ran, Jaime L is the rightful King o' the Board!

Yeah, unfortunately we had to close down the petting zoo due to recent unpleasantness.

You are so my bitch.

Hahaha, how the hell?! Amazing, My!

Edited June 7, 2011 by Jaime L

[Alexia]

On the Syrio discussion, I don't want to get to sucked in because I didn't watch the fight scene all that closely, but getting hit with a wooden sword in the back of the knee sounds pretty disabling to me (with the potential for permanent damage).

Let's raise a glass to Septa Mordane. Yes she's repressive and a killjoy and fosters archaic sex role stereotypes, but she died as nobly as anyone in the show. She may not be the badass Syrio is, but she gave her life for the Starks. :bowdown:

Let me join in that toast. I teared up when she faced down those guards, knowing what I knew about what would happen to her.