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Xray the Enforcer

[Book Spoilers] EP108 Discussion Part 2

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Thus concludes "Rockroi Gets Defensive About a Mistake He Made Nitpicking the Show And Hopefully This Will Be a Lesson To Him to Stop Nitpicking You Ungrateful SOB Who Should Just Be Happy That the Only Sci-Fi Fantasy Book He Ever Liked Was Made Into A Movie And Get Off People's Backs. Asshole."

This is the best line of this whole thread :thumbsup:

Listen folks have the right (and should) bitch about things that bother them on the show. It's the reason Al Gore invented the intranetz. I love the show, it is surpassing my wildest dreams which I've had for 2? years since it was announced. Being a huge fanboy, there are little things that I dislike, I usually don't even bother to talk about them as they are small, but that doesn't mean others shouldn't. Just a different way of doing things, neither is more "right".

Folks also have the right to shoot down those criticisms which they don't agree with for the exact same reasons.

**Edit, added **

As for why Robb let get the scout, this was already discussed. It is quite clear if you remember what he does next in the books. He feints with Roose Bolton and a large chunk of his footmen at Tywin. This is setting that up, giving Tywin more reason to think this green, barbaric Northchild is going to charge right towards him for battle.

Part of the greatness of this writing is it completely foreshadows Robb's tragic fall. He makes the great tactical manuver, but loses big time in the "Game". He has given a very dangerous man control of a large chunk of his army (and then doesn't entrust Edmure with the information he needs to complete the plan). Robb is a Stark (despite looking like a Tully). He does not know people very well. He just expects them to do what they say they will do.

Edited by legba11

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Robb is his father's son, no doubt. Both of them are completely stand-up, honourable men who will do what needs to be done. If they say they will do something, they will do it. If they think something is the right thing to do, they will do it.

Their downfall is thinking that everybody else is like that too.

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More than likely the Lannister scouts spotted Tyrion and the Hill Clans days before they reached the encampment. Tywin was informed and he gave instructions that Tyrion wasn't to be given an "honor" guard or escort into the camp and that the scouts should just keep tabs on them. That's VERY in-line with Tywin's personality and dislike of his son.

I also see that Arya's stabbing of the stable boy was not accidental. She's been training for weeks, just removed Needle from its scabbard when she spins around and runs him through and that's an accident? Sure, she was afraid and the training took over, but it's not like she was holding Needle in front of her and he got pushed onto the pointy end from behind (or she got pushed from behind stabbing him). It seemed pretty purposeful to me. The expression on her face was very "what just happened and what do I do now" after, but that was more the fear of the whole situation and her world falling apart than the fear of the act talking.

Ned was most definitely NOT formal with other "friendly" nobles, even those sworn to him. He treats King Robert extraordinarily informally even going so far as to insult him and say that he was fat in front of a Lannister. It's no surprise to me that his bannermen would call him Ned. None whatsoever. His servants calls him Lord Stark, including Maester and Septa, and that's probably more to do with their own training and upbringing than the rules of his house.

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I'm watching the episode - again. Liked it a lot, but now I had to pause the dancing lesson for a moment.

What got me pondering was when Syrio Forel tells Arya to go to her father. Was that just something he said, or is it just me reading too much into it, I wonder. Because surely Arya - and Syrio F. - must know by now that her father is rotting in a dungeon. So why would he want Arya to go there?

No biggy, just wondering (and again, I might be reading way too much into what he said, while busy fencing a member of the Kingsguard, plus a few Lannister soldiers).

Edited by Ealdorman Halasahr

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That is why the spear is the one weapon that in my opinion is the most important invention in the history of warfare.

I fully agree that the spear was a very important step in warfare technology. A great weapon to enhance the masses.

The spear has been around for hundreds of thousands of years. It is one of the oldest weapons humans have used. You guys kind of make it sound like they just decided a spear would be a good cheap weapon for untrained warriors. It is probably the oldest hunting weapon other than rocks or knives. But maybe you guys are talking more about its use in warfare rather than its "invention."

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I'm watching the episode - again. Liked it a lot, but now I had to pause the dancing lesson for a moment.

What got me pondering was when Syrio Forel tells Arya to go to her father. Was that just something he said, or is it just me reading too much into it, I wonder. Because surely Arya - and Syrio F. - must know by now that her father is rotting in a dungeon. So why would he want Arya to go there?

No biggy, just wondering (and again, I might be reading way too much into what he said, while busy fencing a member of the Kingsguard, plus a few Lannister soldiers).

It's a little harder to tell in the show, because it is in 2 different episode, but in the book that Arya chapter comes immediately after the Ned chapter where he gets betrayed by LF. Arya even thinks during that scene that it is her last dancing lesson before getting on the boat (ie the one her father arranged for her and Sansa to go back to Winterfell). When she runs away, she realizes that it's not safe to go to the Tower of the Hand.

So no, neither her nor Syrio know yet that her father has been arrested.

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I'm watching the episode - again. Liked it a lot, but now I had to pause the dancing lesson for a moment.

What got me pondering was when Syrio Forel tells Arya to go to her father. Was that just something he said, or is it just me reading too much into it, I wonder. Because surely Arya - and Syrio F. - must know by now that her father is rotting in a dungeon. So why would he want Arya to go there?

No biggy, just wondering (and again, I might be reading way too much into what he said, while busy fencing a member of the Kingsguard, plus a few Lannister soldiers).

Not watching it at the moment, but the dancing scene is happening in parallel with Ned being arrested so it makes sense that Syrio doesn't know. Is it just the order of editing that makes it seem longer in between or that one happened in last weeks episode?

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Book readers could (or could not), so TV viewers could too (or could not). Besides the stabbing moment was all sorts of weird due to the camera work.

Tyrion's and Shagga's exchange about chopping the manhood was weird and came out of nowhere, especially since I'm guessing it was supposed to be comical. They should have at least two or three instances of Shagga saying this to deliver the comedy in the later exchange. Then I noticed that GRRM wrote in his blog that Tyrion and Bronn's meeting up with the clans was supposed to occur in Episode 7 (and was actually written by Dan & David) but was pushed to Episode 8. So I'm guessing it was trimmed down to fit into the episode and we've lost some great "I'll chop off your manhood and fit it to the goats" moments. Oh Roz... what have you done to us...

lol, are we really blaming Roz for stuff in episodes she isn't even in? She's certainly become the scapegoat for anything we see is wrong with the series.

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lol, are we really blaming Roz for stuff in episodes she isn't even in? She's certainly become the scapegoat for anything we see is wrong with the series.

Well, the scene being talked about was in Episode 7 and was pushed into Episode 8 instead. So, it's actually very topical here.

That said, I totally agree with your second statement.

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Robb is his father's son, no doubt. Both of them are completely stand-up, honourable men who will do what needs to be done. If they say they will do something, they will do it. If they think something is the right thing to do, they will do it.

Their downfall is thinking that everybody else is like that too.

I've always felt that their downfall was because they're incapable of seeing anyone's viewpoints but their own (in addition to being too honorable for their own good).

Ned only sees things at face value. He sees Jaime on the throne after Aerys is dead and assumes the worst without ever bothering to find out what really happened. He sees Renly's offer as "ripping children from their bed screaming and shedding blood all over the city" instead of removing Cersei from power and potentially preventing a war. He takes Littlefinger at face value while not placing any trust in Varys. He looks down on people he views as less honorable than himself.

We never really get to see if Robb is the same way, he interacts well enough with his own army and bannermen, but we never get a POV from him to know what he's really thinking like we do with Ned, Catelyn, Jon, and Sansa.

Edited by Cereal Forel

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The spear has been around for hundreds of thousands of years. It is one of the oldest weapons humans have used. You guys kind of make it sound like they just decided a spear would be a good cheap weapon for untrained warriors. It is probably the oldest hunting weapon other than rocks or knives. But maybe you guys are talking more about its use in warfare rather than its "invention."

That is precisely what I (we) mean. The spear is perhaps the oldest weapon if you don't count the rock since the rock is natural and the spear requires at least a little constructing. The spear was primarily a hunting weapon, though. As civilizations got larger and more domesticated, it sort of ceased to exist, at least for the populace, and was replaced with farming implements. So its reintegration into society came because of warfare rather than out of a need to hunt again. Bows are certainly a better hunting tool, but take far too long to train an entire army to use. And a pitchfork is much clumsier of a weapon than a simple spear. So perhaps I should have said re-invention rather than invention.

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This is the best line of this whole thread :thumbsup:

Listen folks have the right (and should) bitch about things that bother them on the show. It's the reason Al Gore invented the intranetz. I love the show, it is surpassing my wildest dreams which I've had for 2? years since it was announced. Being a huge fanboy, there are little things that I dislike, I usually don't even bother to talk about them as they are small, but that doesn't mean others shouldn't. Just a different way of doing things, neither is more "right".

Folks also have the right to shoot down those criticisms which they don't agree with for the exact same reasons.

**Edit, added **

As for why Robb let get the scout, this was already discussed. It is quite clear if you remember what he does next in the books. He feints with Roose Bolton and a large chunk of his footmen at Tywin. This is setting that up, giving Tywin more reason to think this green, barbaric Northchild is going to charge right towards him for battle.

Part of the greatness of this writing is it completely foreshadows Robb's tragic fall. He makes the great tactical manuver, but loses big time in the "Game". He has given a very dangerous man control of a large chunk of his army (and then doesn't entrust Edmure with the information he needs to complete the plan). Robb is a Stark (despite looking like a Tully). He does not know people very well. He just expects them to do what they say they will do.

Not to mention his over-reaction to Karstark's actions. He was more insubordinate than treasonous as Robb believes. He should have also been more understanding of his grief and let him take his revenge out somehow that would have avoided the situation. I don't think Ned would have executed Karstark.

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Not to mention his over-reaction to Karstark's actions. He was more insubordinate than treasonous as Robb believes. He should have also been more understanding of his grief and let him take his revenge out somehow that would have avoided the situation. I don't think Ned would have executed Karstark.

He murdered prisoners of war against the wishes of his sovereign. I'm pretty sure Ned would have executed him too.

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lol, are we really blaming Roz for stuff in episodes she isn't even in? She's certainly become the scapegoat for anything we see is wrong with the series.

Nah, I was just kidding, Roz is a great gal, she can stay. But them ruining the joke annoyed me a little (minor thing, I know...)

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Not to mention his over-reaction to Karstark's actions. He was more insubordinate than treasonous as Robb believes. He should have also been more understanding of his grief and let him take his revenge out somehow that would have avoided the situation. I don't think Ned would have executed Karstark.

He murdered a couple of children being held under protection. Daddy Stark would have lopped his head off immediately, but as Ned had more standing and history with these men the results might have been different - he may have found a way to keep the other Karstarks.

That wasn't an overreaction at all (was one of the more appropriate dumb things that family had to do), and completely in line with the Stark family creed "Honor before practicality".

Edited by Captain Tripps

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The spear has been around for hundreds of thousands of years. It is one of the oldest weapons humans have used. You guys kind of make it sound like they just decided a spear would be a good cheap weapon for untrained warriors. It is probably the oldest hunting weapon other than rocks or knives. But maybe you guys are talking more about its use in warfare rather than its "invention."

You are correct in that we're talking about the tactical use of spears in armies. The mere existence of a weapon type hasn't always meant it was being used in all ages, even though it would have made an impact.

Edited by Tywin's bastard

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Book readers could (or could not), so TV viewers could too (or could not). Besides the stabbing moment was all sorts of weird due to the camera work.

Big difference between reading something and seeing it. We tend to be more tolerant of departures from the human norm on the printed page. The 'weird' camerawork was the point I was making - I doubt it was incompetence.

In general I think they're softening the characters. After the departure of Ned viewers will need people to identify with - and cold-blooded ten year old murderers might not fit the bill.

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That topic has been done to death, but let me just say this: Arya kills a lot of people in cold blood for someone who is not a cold-blooded murderer.

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