On northern geography

[Slurms McKenzie]

Oooooh the North is biiiiiiiiiiiiiig!

[voodooqueen126]

I really want to know what is the name of the River that is near the Stoney Shore, North of the Rills and terminates in a lake in the mountains?

For that matter what is the name for the River that terminates in Torrhen's square?

These would be perfect locations for Harbours that would be poised to ward off future Ironborn invasions and Strike Lannisport by sea.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/e/e7/Map_of_westeros.jpg

[Free Northman]

I really want to know what is the name of the River that is near the Stoney Shore, North of the Rills and terminates in a lake in the mountains?

For that matter what is the name for the River that terminates in Torrhen's square?

These would be perfect locations for Harbours that would be poised to ward off future Ironborn invasions and Strike Lannisport by sea.

http://awoiaf.wester...of_westeros.jpg

Yes. I have been thinking about something similar. Specifically, I was wondering which port Brandon the Shipwright used to launch his massive fleet from when he set off to explore the Sunset Sea? It seems that in the current day, there are no Northern ports at all on the western coast. This seems strange, given that it is a 2000 mile coastline or more.

Secondly, I was wondering about the population of the North today compared to the population say 2000 years ago. I assume that Westeros's population has remained fairly constant over the last 8000 years, given that technological progress has really not taken place over this period - at least not since the Andals brought iron and writing to the continent.

Population size would be cyclical, shrinking during winters and expanding during summers, but overall, I would assume that the population today is not much different from the summer population 2000 or 3000 years ago.

Therefore I am most interested to understand which city was the biggest in the North prior to the founding of White Harbor, 1000 years ago. If the population size was equivalent to today, there had to be at least a city of similar size back then. If not White Harbor, then what? Was it an earlier city that has since been abandoned?

You'd think that the normal requirements of an independent kingdom - like a mint to make coins, a base for your tax collectors and so on would require a proper city to be managed from. We know that White Harbor used to be this base, before the conquest. But where did these functions reside prior to White Harbor's establishment? It would seem that Winterfell, and the Wintertown outside it - with it's single inn - was never really set up to serve in this capacity.

[Biffyc7]

From King's Landing to either Winterfell or the Wall was 1000 leagues, which is 3000 miles or over 4800 km.

Which is like New York to Los Angeles

[voodooqueen126]

It really bugs me that there is no name for the Land's beyond the Wall?

Freeland?

Wildeland?

It would be totally ridiculous if Academics in Westeros produce books like "Gender and Sexual Identity in the North, The Iron Isles and The Lands-Beyond-the-Wall from 1 AL-537 AL"

I mean that sounds so Othering. Like the Lands Beyond the wall don't exist except as "The Outside" academics would hate that.

[Lord of Brewtown]

Any speculation as to if Ramsgate's Lords (Woolfield?) are vassals to the Manderly's, Bolton's, or directly to the Stark's?

[Free Northman]

Any speculation as to if Ramsgate's Lords (Woolfield?) are vassals to the Manderly's, Bolton's, or directly to the Stark's?

I think they are vassals directly to the Starks, but take their lead from their more powerful neighbours and allies, the Manderlys, in the absence of the Stark leadership. Lord Wyman indicates as much to Davos in Dance.

[Lord of Brewtown]

I think they are vassals directly to the Starks, but take their lead from their more powerful neighbours and allies, the Manderlys, in the absence of the Stark leadership. Lord Wyman indicates as much to Davos in Dance.

Lord Manderly mentions Ramsgate when mentioning areas he has influence over (if I remember correctly); but, it didn't seem real clear to me if that included Ramsgate, or was lands TO Ramsgate (but, not including). I just find it strange that the ruling house hasn't been mentioned at all yet (if it is indeed Woolfield). That's what was making me think they might be lesser lords/vassals to another Northern Lord.

[Free Northman]

Lord Manderly mentions Ramsgate when mentioning areas he has influence over (if I remember correctly); but, it didn't seem real clear to me if that included Ramsgate, or was lands TO Ramsgate (but, not including). I just find it strange that the ruling house hasn't been mentioned at all yet (if it is indeed Woolfield). That's what was making me think they might be lesser lords/vassals to another Northern Lord.

It's possible. Either way, Manderly makes it clear that he is the most influential lord in the southern half of the North and pretty much all the other lords from that area will take their lead from him, whether they are his vassals or not.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

George said Westeros is around the size of South America, and the North is a little less than half the area of the continent combined, so it should be easy for anyone with that data to estimate its relative size.

[Free Northman]

George said Westeros is around the size of South America, and the North is a little less than half the area of the continent combined, so it should be easy for anyone with that data to estimate its relative size.

The South America size reference is generally interpreted to mean the LENGTH of South America, not the surface area. This is verifiable by using the Wall's 300 miles as a measuring stick by which to estimate the total length and breadth of Westeros.

It is about the length of South America, but much narrower. It is still comparable to the entire Europe though, which is immense for a medieval kingdom. Basically, each of the Seven Kingdoms is approximately the size of France, with the North being as big as the entire Western Europe.

[Jaak]

How big do you think is Westeros compared to the length of Roman Empire (the entire length of Mediterranean)?

[Lord Bear Mormont]

Westeros is the length of South America, not the area. Martin says 'size' as a shorthand, but that is not accurate. Using the Wall as a scale bar, Westeros is almost exactly 3,000 miles from the Wall to the south coast of Dorne. South America is about 4,400 miles long north to south. If we assume 1,400 miles or more of territory north of the Wall, that comparison works. However, Westeros is usually* around 900 miles wide at best, whilst South America is over 3,000 miles across at its widest point.

So Westeros is not the area of South America in size, but the length. If it was area, because of the narrowness of the continent for the most part, the distances between locations would be somewhere beyond ludicrous. As it stands, it's approximately 1,500 miles from Winterfell to King's Landing, which feels about right to me.

* In AFFC the south coast of Dorne is said to be 400 leagues (1,200 miles) wide, which seems difficult to make work. However, if you assume GRRM meant that south coast of Westeros, including the part of the south coast west of the Red Mountains (including Oldtown), it does more or less reach 1,200 miles wide, and is the widest point of the continent.

Great Post!

[Jon Flowers]

Great stuff from everyone. I got the impression, for what it's worth, that the Manderlys were overlords of Ramsgate. If not though, doubtless they would still hold considerable infuence there. Concerning the river emptying south of the Stony S hore, it would originate in that lake west of Torrhen's Square rather than terminating there, but I'm sure that's what was intended anyway. Like I said, good information from everybody.

[Lord Bear Mormont]

So a skinny South America?

[Hyper]

So a skinny South America?

Yes. I see it stretching from close to the equator (Dorne) up past the arctic circle (rough location of the Wall), and ending up at the north pole.

[Lord Bear Mormont]

When Royce, Gared, and Will are about 8 or 9 days north of the wall, how far is that in miles? 200?

[Free Northman]

Yes. I see it stretching from close to the equator (Dorne) up past the arctic circle (rough location of the Wall), and ending up at the north pole.

As I've described before, the Wall isn't quite as far north as the arctic circle. You can judge this by looking at the extent of the Haunted Forest.

The Haunted Forest appears to stretch approximately 600 to 800 miles or more north of the Wall.

The Arctic Circle lies at 66 degrees north. In the real world, the arctic treeline varies. In some areas it doesn't even stretch as far north as the arctic circle, in others it lies more or less on the arctic circle, or a little bit beyond it.

The northernmost latitude at which trees grow in the real world, is 72 degrees north. That's about 400 miles north of the arctic circle. But this is an extreme variation of the general treeline, which doesn't really extend past 68 degrees north, and in many cases doesn't even reach the arctic circle.

So based on this, it would appear that the Wall lies a significant distance south of the arctic circle, and probably closer to 60 degrees north than 66 degrees.

Also, Dorne doesn't lie on the equator. Instead, it lies roughly on the same latitude as the desertline in the real world - which crosses through the deserts of New Mexico, the Sahara, and the Gobi desert. Therefore it is likely that the Red Waste in Essos also lies on this latitude, which it shares with Dorne.

The equator is much farther south. More or less where the Summer Islands and Sothoryos are located.

[RickonTheBAMF]

When Royce, Gared, and Will are about 8 or 9 days north of the wall, how far is that in miles? 200?

Probably far less. Mounted personnel on level ground or along established roads could make it that far in 10 days if they stick to only 20-30 miles a day to spare their horses. North of the Wall all they have are game tracks and a particularly dangerous forest to wend their way through (roots hidden under falling leaves and snowdrifts, etc., easy to put a horse's foot in the wrong place and lame it.) 9-10 days north of the wall they're probably less than 100 miles north of the Wall (just past Craster's Keep, and he had mentioned putting them up for a night.)

[RickonTheBAMF]

By that same token, in ADwD, Bran and Co. pass "an old ringfort of the First Men" many days before reaching the Three-Eyed Crow's caves. The inference here is that the caves are a fair distance north of the Fist, and maybe past the valley the Thenns lived in?