Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Rodrik of Dorne

On northern geography

Recommended Posts

By that same token, in ADwD, Bran and Co. pass "an old ringfort of the First Men" many days before reaching the Three-Eyed Crow's caves. The inference here is that the caves are a fair distance north of the Fist, and maybe past the valley the Thenns lived in?

No, the Caves aren't as far north as the Valley of the Thenns. That valley is pretty much on the end of the vegetation covered world, and probably the only reason it is liveable is because of its sheltered location.

The caves are in the Haunted Forest itself. I'd guess about halfway between the Wall and the Valley of the Thenns, but farther eastward.

The children could not have walked THAT far without food through the icy wilderness of the Haunted Forest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Using the Wall's length of 300 miles, and breaking the North into roughly three squarish portions - (the big middle portion, and the two smaller portions north and south of it respectively) you can easily calculate a conservative surface area for the North of about 1.5 million square miles.

To put it in context, that is bigger than France, Germany, Britain, Spain, Italy, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland, Poland and Greece COMBINED. In fact, after adding all of those countries surface areas together, you can still add another France before approximately equalling the size of the North.

It is absolutely HUGE.

From King's Landing to either Winterfell or the Wall was 1000 leagues, which is 3000 miles or over 4800 km.

Westeros is the length of South America, not the area. Martin says 'size' as a shorthand, but that is not accurate. Using the Wall as a scale bar, Westeros is almost exactly 3,000 miles from the Wall to the south coast of Dorne. South America is about 4,400 miles long north to south. If we assume 1,400 miles or more of territory north of the Wall, that comparison works. However, Westeros is usually* around 900 miles wide at best, whilst South America is over 3,000 miles across at its widest point.

So Westeros is not the area of South America in size, but the length. If it was area, because of the narrowness of the continent for the most part, the distances between locations would be somewhere beyond ludicrous. As it stands, it's approximately 1,500 miles from Winterfell to King's Landing, which feels about right to me.

* In AFFC the south coast of Dorne is said to be 400 leagues (1,200 miles) wide, which seems difficult to make work. However, if you assume GRRM meant that south coast of Westeros, including the part of the south coast west of the Red Mountains (including Oldtown), it does more or less reach 1,200 miles wide, and is the widest point of the continent.

It took Alliser Thorne 6 months to reach Kingslanding from East-Watch-By-The Sea, and he was going by boat.

How long do you think it would take to get from East-Watch To Karhold? and from Karhold to White Harbour?

Or from Maidenpool or Gulltown to White Harbour?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It took Alliser Thorne 6 months to reach Kingslanding from East-Watch-By-The Sea, and he was going by boat.

How long do you think it would take to get from East-Watch To Karhold? and from Karhold to White Harbour?

Or from Maidenpool or Gulltown to White Harbour?

Well, it took Jorah only 2 weeks to sail from Lannisport to Bear Island with his young wife after the Tourney at Lannisport, so either the Narrow Sea in Autumn is a good deal more difficult to sail than the Sunset Sea in Summer, or Jorah just had incredibly favourable winds, or Martin lacked a bit of consistency in the descriptions.

I don't know how far a ship sails in a day, but if the distance is about 1500 miles, and you do say 100 miles a day, 15 days would be about right.

If you have unfavourable winds and need to tack against the wind, you may cover many times that distance, and maybe take as much as say 60 days, I guess.

6 Months sound far fetched though, and I wonder if Thorne didn't stop over in Braavos or White Harbor for a few months on his way to King's Landing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, it took Jorah only 2 weeks to sail from Lannisport to Bear Island with his young wife after the Tourney at Lannisport, so either the Narrow Sea in Autumn is a good deal more difficult to sail than the Sunset Sea in Summer, or Jorah just had incredibly favourable winds, or Martin lacked a bit of consistency in the descriptions.

I don't know how far a ship sails in a day, but if the distance is about 1500 miles, and you do say 100 miles a day, 15 days would be about right.

If you have unfavourable winds and need to tack against the wind, you may cover many times that distance, and maybe take as much as say 60 days, I guess.

6 Months sound far fetched though, and I wonder if Thorne didn't stop over in Braavos or White Harbor for a few months on his way to King's Landing.

yeah. 6 month's does sound far fetched. I am really going on Errant Bard's timeline though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah. 6 month's does sound far fetched. I am really going on Errant Bard's timeline though.

Problem is, 6 months is the about the time that passed between the dragons hatching and the arrival of Ser Barristan to Qarth; so Dany crossed the Red Waste, arrived at Qarth and spend some months there trying to get the help of the pureborn, while Ser Jorah sent a message to Illyrio from Qarth, Illyrio sent word to Varys, who recruited Ser Barristan, sent him to Illyrio who sent him to Qarth...all in all, the ships had to go from Qarth to Pentos and King´s Landing and back in little more than two months at most each stage (two to go there and two to go back)...

On the other hand, it took Thorne six months to go from Eastwatch to King´s Landing, and I doubt he spent too much time in Braavos or Pentos; he was in a hurry, probably travelled in one of the Watch own galleys (so no need to seek ships or make the travel in stages), and he doesn´t strike me as the kind of man who doesn´t take his duties seriously and takes the opportunity to take some imprompty holidays.

The ships are amazingly fast sometimes, and incredibly slow the next day, and I don´t think the winds can explain everything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Problem is, 6 months is the about the time that passed between the dragons hatching and the arrival of Ser Barristan to Qarth; so Dany crossed the Red Waste, arrived at Qarth and spend some months there trying to get the help of the pureborn, while Ser Jorah sent a message to Illyrio from Qarth, Illyrio sent word to Varys, who recruited Ser Barristan, sent him to Illyrio who sent him to Qarth...all in all, the ships had to go from Qarth to Pentos and King´s Landing and back in little more than two months at most...

On the other hand, it took Thorne six months to go from Eastwatch to King´s Landing, and I doubt he spent too much time in Braavos or Pentos; he was in a hurry, probably travelled in one of the Watch own galleys (so no need to seek ships or make the travel in stages), and he doesn´t strike me as the kind of man who doesn´t take his duties seriously and takes the opportunity to take some imprompty holidays.

The ships are amazingly fast sometimes, and incredibly slow the next day, and I don´t think the winds can explain everything.

how long do you think it would take to get from White Harbour to Barrowton or White Harbour to Wintefell?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/53370-adwd-spoilers-reek-3/page__st__60

As I am trying to figure it out here...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

how long do you think it would take to get from White Harbour to Barrowton or White Harbour to Wintefell?

http://asoiaf.wester...-3/page__st__60

As I am trying to figure it out here...

It's about 400 miles from White Harbor to each of those locations, as the crow flies. So make that maybe half again that distance, on land. So say 600 miles.

At 20 miles per day, you're looking at 30 days. At 30 miles a day, you're looking at maybe 20 days.

Depends on how much river travel on the White Knife speeds up the journey, I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's about 400 miles from White Harbor to each of those locations, as the crow flies. So make that maybe half again that distance, on land. So say 600 miles.

At 20 miles per day, you're looking at 30 days. At 30 miles a day, you're looking at maybe 20 days.

Depends on how much river travel on the White Knife speeds up the journey, I guess.

That's a long time!

17/03/299 ACOK Bran 2 Lady Hornwood at Winterfell.

11/09/299 COK Bran 4 News of Ramsay raping Lady Hornwood. Rodrick leaving. Bran 9.

So well that doesn't help much since that's like 6 months.

argh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah, 6 months does seem farfetched considering that it took Columbus roughly three months to cross the Atlantic from Spain to the Carribean, so it is either a case of Allister stopping by at different places or an inconsistency in the writing, which is entirely possible given the scope of the series.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah, 6 months does seem farfetched considering that it took Columbus roughly three months to cross the Atlantic from Spain to the Carribean, so it is either a case of Allister stopping by at different places or an inconsistency in the writing, which is entirely possible given the scope of the series.

Or a fault in Errant Bard's timeline?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Problem is, 6 months is the about the time that passed between the dragons hatching and the arrival of Ser Barristan to Qarth; so Dany crossed the Red Waste, arrived at Qarth and spend some months there trying to get the help of the pureborn, while Ser Jorah sent a message to Illyrio from Qarth, Illyrio sent word to Varys, who recruited Ser Barristan, sent him to Illyrio who sent him to Qarth...all in all, the ships had to go from Qarth to Pentos and King´s Landing and back in little more than two months at most each stage (two to go there and two to go back)...

Do we know for a fact that this was the chain of events? I got the impression that Ser Barristan sought ought Dany on his own accord. He may have confided in Varys first who sent him to Illyrio in Pentos - Or Barristan set out for Pentos himself, knowing he was not safe in Westeros.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a few doubts concerning the geography of the northern lands. I think the upcoming book (a World of Ice and Fire) will help me, but maybe some of you guys can do the same.

- First, wheres the Acorn Whater? Is it the river that runs into the White Knife?

- Wheres Ramsgate mentioned in the books? The place is in the HBO map. Who rules over it?

- Is there any estimate of the North's area, in square miles (considering the wall's length of 300 miles)?

I think that House Lake rules over the Long Lake, and that house Woolfield rules over Ramsgate.

Just a hunch. Also if Ramsgate is sworn to White Harbour, it's worth noting that Wylis Manderly is married to Leona Woolfield.

From King's Landing to either Winterfell or the Wall was 1000 leagues, which is 3000 miles or over 4800 km.

For a merchant ship hugging the coast (and making stop overs at places like the Karhold, Weeping Water, Widow's Watch, Ramsgate, Old Castle)-not flying like a crow, I calculated East-Watch to White Harbour at about 2550 miles.

Westeros is the length of South America, not the area. Martin says 'size' as a shorthand, but that is not accurate. Using the Wall as a scale bar, Westeros is almost exactly 3,000 miles from the Wall to the south coast of Dorne. South America is about 4,400 miles long north to south. If we assume 1,400 miles or more of territory north of the Wall, that comparison works. However, Westeros is usually* around 900 miles wide at best, whilst South America is over 3,000 miles across at its widest point.

So Westeros is not the area of South America in size, but the length. If it was area, because of the narrowness of the continent for the most part, the distances between locations would be somewhere beyond ludicrous. As it stands, it's approximately 1,500 miles from Winterfell to King's Landing, which feels about right to me.

* In AFFC the south coast of Dorne is said to be 400 leagues (1,200 miles) wide, which seems difficult to make work. However, if you assume GRRM meant that south coast of Westeros, including the part of the south coast west of the Red Mountains (including Oldtown), it does more or less reach 1,200 miles wide, and is the widest point of the continent.

So by that do you mean travelling in a straight line because if 300 miles=4cm, then 1cm=75 so therefore 13 cm=Distance from Castle Black to White Harbour=75*13=975 miles

because when i printed out the HBO map and traced a ships journey from East-Watch to Karhold (hugging the coast) it was 12.5 cm roughly or about 937.5 miles. Then Karhold to Weeping Water was about 4.5 cm or 337.5 miles. Then Weeping Water to Widow's Watch was about 5.5cm or about 412.5 miles. Widow's Watch to Ramsgate was 3 cm or 225 miles. Then Ramsgate to Old Castle was 5 cm or about 375 miles. Old Castle to White Harbour was 3.5 cm or 262.5 miles... this totalled to 2550 miles.

This makes me wonder whether land would be faster...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay using the map in AGOT i have

I inch=300 miles.

by boat, Skagos is 5 1/2 inches from White Harbour.

Which means that Skagos is roughly 1650 miles from White Harbour by boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do we know for a fact that this was the chain of events? I got the impression that Ser Barristan sought ought Dany on his own accord. He may have confided in Varys first who sent him to Illyrio in Pentos - Or Barristan set out for Pentos himself, knowing he was not safe in Westeros.

Even if Ser Barristan went to Pentos and seeked Illyrio by himself, Illyrio still had to receive the news about Dany arrival to Qarth, and send Ser Barristan there, so little more than two months for the ship with the message to arrive to Pentos, and little more than two months for Illyrio´s ships to carry Ser Barristan and Belwas to Qarth.

Some people have suggested that Illyrio or Varys spied on Dany with magic, and sent the ships to Qarth soon after she started her crossing of the Red Waste, and then the trip could have lasted close to five months; the problem is, Illyrio later doesn´t knows that Dany is staying at Mereen when he sends Aegon to Volantis, and that points to a lack of magical scrying resources.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would be careful of taking one given line's lenght and using it willy-nilly to measure everything. Look at real world maps - the distortion of the projection means everything near the poles is weighted more heavily than the equator. And in any case it's a map of a world without land surveys and triangulation. That gives authors a vast liberty of nudging the distances and dimensions as much as they need to, as long as they're internally consistent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was going to ask if anyone thought oblique projection had anything to do with the north appearing so big.

No, because they aren't creating maps with longtitudinal lines remaing constant. In other words, they aren't extrapolating a globe onto a flat piece of paper.

Instead, their manner of mapping is crude and direct. They measure distance by how long it takes to walk or ride or sail from one point to the next. So from Winterfell to the Wall is say 20 days travel on the Kingsroad, at 30 miles a day, gives you 600 miles or whatever.

If the map of Westeros was drawn so that each line of longtitude remained equidistant from the next right up to the pole, then the North would appear even vaster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Id love to know the general size difference between westeros and Essos.In Dance when Xaro gives Dany the huge map he says Weseros is somewhere down there and waves.Sounds very insignificant but that must be just Essos idiocy right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Id love to know the general size difference between westeros and Essos.In Dance when Xaro gives Dany the huge map he says Weseros is somewhere down there and waves.Sounds very insignificant but that must be just Essos idiocy right?

See Werthead's speculative world map on the "Sneak Peak" thread in this forum. Very impressive, and shows basically the entire known world on one map. Gives you a great sense of scale.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×