The Wiseman´s Fear VI (Spoilers and discussion)

[jumbles]

I think Bredon's pagan rituals may have something to do with greystones. From the bet Kvothe and Simmon make about them in WMF chapter 36 and then the evidence Simmon gathered in chapter 39, many people think they are pagan relics.

[jumbles]

Thought I'd mention something else I just noticed. In WMF chapter 99, Felurian says that human Amyr "sound like children dressing in their parents' clothes." In WMF chapter 40, Puppet is described as "grinning like a child playing dress-up in his parents' clothes." This seems to hint that Puppet is one of the human Amyr.

Edited to add more thoughts:

Maybe the "holy war" that the scrivs fought 50 years ago was part of a clash to control what the history books say.

Also, I wonder if Puppet's puppets could make good mommets for malfeasance.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Thought I'd mention something else I just noticed. In WMF chapter 99, Felurian says that human Amyr "sound like children dressing in their parents' clothes." In WMF chapter 40, Puppet is described as "grinning like a child playing dress-up in his parents' clothes." This seems to hint that Puppet is one of the human Amyr.

Edited to add more thoughts:

Maybe the "holy war" that the scrivs fought 50 years ago was part of a clash to control what the history books say.

Also, I wonder if Puppet's puppets could make good mommets for malfeasance.

Damn. That's a nice catch. I can't help but wonder if Kvothe has encountered any human Amyr so far.

I really think there is more that goes on in the archives than just arguing over the right way to catalog books. Given the lack of information we've seen about certain things, and knowing how actively the Archives work to obtain 'desirable' books, I think that it has to be manipulating history on some level.

[two_by_two]

In relation to the Lackless Door, beyond the fascination with the Amyr that both Kvothe and the Maer share, it's possible it's sought out in order to cure some affliction of Meluan's, perhaps something that specifically interferes with her ability to sleep?

"There's a secret she's been keeping

She's been dreaming and not sleeping" (NOTW, pg.77)

It should probably be noted that, in I believe the prologue of WMF, Kvothe is lying in bed awake, and, as far as I can remember, we never see him sleep at all in the frame. He may also be affected, perhaps by his interactions in DOS with the Lackless Door. Additionally, he mentions often that he has an excellent memory (I'm thinking specifically of the passage where he says "Ben's training has given me a memory so sharp I have to be careful not to cut myself."). Is Kvothe starting down the path that Lanre went down? Haliax is barred from the doors of sleep, forgetfulness, madness, and death.

Additionally, Denna mentions at the end of NOTW that she has trouble sleeping. When Kvothe asks why, she says "I have dreams," and he can tell from her tone of voice not to push it. I can't help but wonder what she dreams about. If I had to venture a guess, I would say she was probably raped earlier ("that means you're going to get ridden"). However, I still enjoy playing the devil's advocate and pushing for the Denna as Chandrian theory. (In support of that, by the way, Deoch (who courted Denna years ago) doesn't think she looks any older now than she did then.)

Does anyone have any ideas about why specifically it is a bad idea to keep a piece of the scrael? I have a few guesses:

1. They reproduce like starfish: a whole one can grow from a small piece.
2. They are attracted to the remaining piece. This seems more likely from what Bast said. Kvothe returned, bloodied and bruised, and, when he says he killed the scrael, Bast asks "You didn't keep a piece, did you, Reshi?"^{approximate quote}
3. Some other malignant effect the shard of scrael has.

[Gaston de Foix]

Thought I'd mention something else I just noticed. In WMF chapter 99, Felurian says that human Amyr "sound like children dressing in their parents' clothes." In WMF chapter 40, Puppet is described as "grinning like a child playing dress-up in his parents' clothes." This seems to hint that Puppet is one of the human Amyr.

Edited to add more thoughts:

Maybe the "holy war" that the scrivs fought 50 years ago was part of a clash to control what the history books say.

Also, I wonder if Puppet's puppets could make good mommets for malfeasance.

Nope, the puppets don't have any essence. You need blood, urine, hair or skin for proper malfeasance.

I think the reference to holy war is kinda ironic and a reference to ardour rather than anything else. I think it was about what it seemed to be, the proper way to organise the archives. I do embrace the possibility that different Master Archivists have different philosophies of how and what to do to protect knowledge in the Archives.

I've been working off and on, on a post on the Amyr. As ever I'm avoiding making the perfect the enemy of the good, so I'm just going to run a few thoughts by soon, and introduce the other points I want to make in the discussion that hopefully follows.

[Gaston de Foix]

Do you think, with those pagan rituals and all, that maybe Bredon learning to dance is more meaningful than we've been allowing for?

it's possible. Dance, interpretive or otherwise, is often associated with sinister elements (Macbeth, Act 1, Scene 4). As to what it means, no clue.

[jumbles]

It should probably be noted that, in I believe the prologue of WMF, Kvothe is lying in bed awake, and, as far as I can remember, we never see him sleep at all in the frame.

Does anyone have any ideas about why specifically it is a bad idea to keep a piece of the scrael? I have a few guesses:

1. They reproduce like starfish: a whole one can grow from a small piece.
2. They are attracted to the remaining piece. This seems more likely from what Bast said. Kvothe returned, bloodied and bruised, and, when he says he killed the scrael, Bast asks "You didn't keep a piece, did you, Reshi?"^{approximate quote}
3. Some other malignant effect the shard of scrael has.

Kote is said to sleep at least 3 times in NotW. Chapter 1: "Once in bed, it was a long time before he slept." Chapter 3: "Sleep met him like a lover in an empty bed." Chapter 5: Bast "walked softly to stand beside the bed and bent over the sleeping man."

Your second guess is what I think it is based on what Bast says in NotW chapter 5: "You went out hunting for them, didn't you? No. You kept a piece of the one Carter killed."

Nope, the puppets don't have any essence. You need blood, urine, hair or skin for proper malfeasance.

Well yeah, I meant if you added something like blood or hair to them.

[Gaston de Foix]

The Amyr

Ch.41, WMF "The Greater Good" is where I am getting stuck.

Kvothe concludes from his discovery of Gibea's book because of his doodling of "Ivare Enim Euge" that Gibea is a secret Amyr. He further concludes, understandably but a little strangely, that this vindicates his theory that there were secret members of the order who went in hiding and that therefore the Amyr are around in the present day.

He and Sim also take it for granted that the Amyr put a stop to Gibea's practices but don't find that even the least noteworthy; on Kvothe's theory the order Amyr was interfering with the practices of an individual Amyr and significantly, not pre-emptively but only after he had carried pretty wholescale butchery. There is reference elsewhere to Duke of Gibea's trial.

In Ch. 48, A Significant Absence

we get the following.

“There are stories too,” I said. “Early on there are stories about the great wrongs they righted. Later you get stories about the terrible things they did. An Amyr in Renere kills a corrupt judge. Another in Junpui puts down a peasant uprising. A third in Melithi poisons half the town’s nobility.”

“And that isn’t solid information?” Wilem asked.

“They’re soft stories,” I said. “Second- or third-hand. Three-quarters of them are simply hearsay. I can’t find corroborating evidence for them anywhere. Why can’t I find any mention of the corrupt judge in the church records? His name should be recorded in every case he tried. What was the date of this peasant uprising, and why can’t I find it mentioned in any of the other histories?”

This is strange because Kvothe is looking for records, trial records even, but ignoring the trial of the Duke of Gibea.

We know (or at least doubt) whether Gibea was ever a secret Amyr because of Felurian's claim there were never any human Amyr and there is nothing to suggest Gibea was other than human.

so why then, does Kvothe not wrestle with the contradiction in Ch.41?

[thistlepong]

It should probably be noted that, in I believe the prologue of WMF, Kvothe is lying in bed awake, and, as far as I can remember, we never see him sleep at all in the frame.

Good post. I fully agree with Kvothe being on Lanre's path. And I wish he didn't sleep, but it looks like he does in NotWc5: "the young man walked softly to stand beside the bed and bent over the sleeping man."

I think Lanre's new and terrible name has to do with the rhinna flowers, which Kvothe clearly hasn't eaten yet. So I can deal with him only being on the path rather than at the end of it.

Additionally, Denna mentions at the end of NOTW that she has trouble sleeping. When Kvothe asks why, she says "I have dreams," and he can tell from her tone of voice not to push it. I can't help but wonder what she dreams about.

See, there's another nagging similarity to the Lackless poem :devil: I wondered if she wasn't plagued by Tehlu...

Does anyone have any ideas about why specifically it is a bad idea to keep a piece of the scrael? I have a few guesses:

2. They are attracted to the remaining piece. This seems more likely from what Bast said. Kvothe returned, bloodied and bruised, and, when he says he killed the scrael, Bast asks "You didn't keep a piece, did you, Reshi?"^{approximate quote}

That one. They cluster.^{Bast: There's never just one scrael.} The rules for demons - the pit, the wood, &c. - are for the specific disposal of the scrael so they won't come back. Kvothe keeping the piece specifically to draw them is the nail driven home.

Nope, the puppets don't have any essence. You need blood, urine, hair or skin for proper malfeasance.

Well, technically, wood that looks like you is a terrible link, not an impossible one.

it's possible. Dance, interpretive or otherwise, is often associated with sinister elements (Macbeth, Act 1, Scene 4). As to what it means, no clue.

Ahem... I mean, Bredon is learning to skin dance. Nobody dances in the books. Almost all references to dance, dancer, and dancing are in the context of skin-dancers. It's kind of meta-analysis, sure. Folk want to connect him to the Fae; that might be it. Before dismissing it entirely, consider that even Bast doesn't know much about them in the frame, other than that they're supposed to be gone.

I was gonna cobble together a post on the Mender Heresies. However, it's mostly irrelevant to figuring anything out and I really won't have time for a couple weeks. So here are the bones of it.

In Hespe's "The Boy Who Loved the Moon," the tinker is left with the grand old manshion and told, "It's up to you to mend it." Folk have suggested that The Book of the Path (related in Trapis's tale) is an overlay on the older stories Skarpi relates in "Lanre Turned" and "Tehlu's Watchful Eye."^Merihathor? They're similar; and yet Tehlu pulling a Jesus is central to the story; incarnating as Menda.

I think Tehlu & Pals co-opted more than just one old tradition. The Menders may have been the original tinkers and/or may have venerated that original fellow. I'm think of Selitos words about how there was still joy to be had. Tinkers, Menders, may be interested in lending folk a helping hand.

In order to discredit the Menders and strengthen their own story, the Tehlins grafted Tehlu onto the Mender. He becomes Menda, traveling, helping, saving cities while adding the martial flavor of the Aturan Tehlin church. One of the central struggles of the early Catholic church centered around the trinity - who and what Jesus, YHWH, and the "spirit" were and how they related to one another. The Mender Heretics likely maintained that Mender was not Tehlu.

[Gaston de Foix]

Good post. I fully agree with Kvothe being on Lanre's path. And I wish he didn't sleep, but it looks like he does in NotWc5: "the young man walked softly to stand beside the bed and bent over the sleeping man."

I think Lanre's new and terrible name has to do with the rhinna flowers, which Kvothe clearly hasn't eaten yet. So I can deal with him only being on the path rather than at the end of it.

See, there's another nagging similarity to the Lackless poem :devil: I wondered if she wasn't plagued by Tehlu...

That one. They cluster.^{Bast: There's never just one scrael.} The rules for demons - the pit, the wood, &c. - are for the specific disposal of the scrael so they won't come back. Kvothe keeping the piece specifically to draw them is the nail driven home.

Well, technically, wood that looks like you is a terrible link, not an impossible one.

Ahem... I mean, Bredon is learning to skin dance. Nobody dances in the books. Almost all references to dance, dancer, and dancing are in the context of skin-dancers. It's kind of meta-analysis, sure. Folk want to connect him to the Fae; that might be it. Before dismissing it entirely, consider that even Bast doesn't know much about them in the frame, other than that they're supposed to be gone.

I was gonna cobble together a post on the Mender Heresies. However, it's mostly irrelevant to figuring anything out and I really won't have time for a couple weeks. So here are the bones of it.

In Hespe's "The Boy Who Loved the Moon," the tinker is left with the grand old manshion and told, "It's up to you to mend it." Folk have suggested that The Book of the Path (related in Trapis's tale) is an overlay on the older stories Skarpi relates in "Lanre Turned" and "Tehlu's Watchful Eye."^Merihathor? They're similar; and yet Tehlu pulling a Jesus is central to the story; incarnating as Menda.

I think Tehlu & Pals co-opted more than just one old tradition. The Menders may have been the original tinkers and/or may have venerated that original fellow. I'm think of Selitos words about how there was still joy to be had. Tinkers, Menders, may be interested in lending folk a helping hand.

In order to discredit the Menders and strengthen their own story, the Tehlins grafted Tehlu onto the Mender. He becomes Menda, traveling, helping, saving cities while adding the martial flavor of the Aturan Tehlin church. One of the central struggles of the early Catholic church centered around the trinity - who and what Jesus, YHWH, and the "spirit" were and how they related to one another. The Mender Heretics likely maintained that Mender was not Tehlu.

I had a different assumption on the origin and importance of Tinkers.

I assumed that tinkers were so important because at a time when civilisation had virtually collapsed after the Creation War, the roads were terrible and communication was almost impossible, and possibly fractious nations intercepted tinkers brought news, rare but necessary commodities like salt and so on.

This isn't necessarily inconsistent with your theory of course.

Ok so the tinkers became really important after the Creation War? But the interaction between Jax and the tinker in the story implies that (a) there were tinkers before Jax stole the moon and (B) there were rules governing the interaction with tinkers when the tinker met Jax?. Admittedly the reaction is being imported from a modern day perspective, but the tinker accepting challenges etc suggests otherwise.

I do think the mender heresies are to do with Menda; I just assumed they were a version of the real world Arian heresies about the nature of Menda; fully human/fully divine or some combination...

[Sci-2]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but something jumped out at me in prior threads discussions on Haliax and the drawing of him:

"The other candle sat underneath his outstretched hand: it was grey with a black flame, and the space around it was smudged and darkened."

Is this the candle with no light needed to open the Lackless Door? Could the shaed, which is also shadow magic, do something similar to a flame?

[two_by_two]

I was gonna cobble together a post on the Mender Heresies. However, it's mostly irrelevant to figuring anything out and I really won't have time for a couple weeks. So here are the bones of it.

In Hespe's "The Boy Who Loved the Moon," the tinker is left with the grand old manshion and told, "It's up to you to mend it." Folk have suggested that The Book of the Path (related in Trapis's tale) is an overlay on the older stories Skarpi relates in "Lanre Turned" and "Tehlu's Watchful Eye."^Merihathor? They're similar; and yet Tehlu pulling a Jesus is central to the story; incarnating as Menda.

I think Tehlu & Pals co-opted more than just one old tradition. The Menders may have been the original tinkers and/or may have venerated that original fellow. I'm think of Selitos words about how there was still joy to be had. Tinkers, Menders, may be interested in lending folk a helping hand.

In order to discredit the Menders and strengthen their own story, the Tehlins grafted Tehlu onto the Mender. He becomes Menda, traveling, helping, saving cities while adding the martial flavor of the Aturan Tehlin church. One of the central struggles of the early Catholic church centered around the trinity - who and what Jesus, YHWH, and the "spirit" were and how they related to one another. The Mender Heretics likely maintained that Mender was not Tehlu.

Or possibly Tehlu was the original Mender. The word "mend" originally meant "to free from sin or fault, improve morally", which is related to the word "amend". Additionally, the word "mendicant", meaning "beggar" (in WMF, used to describe the rumored origins of the Amyr), comes from the root menda, meaning "fault, physical defect". Perhaps unrelatedly, it appears that most religious orders in the real world arose from mendicant priests.

[Xjester]

Hello, just signed up.

Great findings guys, it was fun going through all the threads to catch up on all the discussions, and yet i do confess i have skimmed through most older threads so dont know if this has already been talked about or not. If so then please pass it off as Noob error. Just had to register :) , damn this waiting for approval is taking LOOOOOOOONG.

First i have a question, the story about Jax opening the house -> creating Fae , also says he (Jax / iAX) got those from the tinkers pack, so the tinker was perhaps not a Namer but a shaper himself, as he already had those things and the ability to creat the "house". Plus the Tinker knew Yillish knots of Magic , he tied the third up so not even Jax cuold open it, perhaps the third Box is what the Lockless box is, the knot is just roughed up and invisible to the eye due to the abuse Jax put it through yet could not open. This means the lockless box does not hold any form of sacrel or such but a price which the tinker kept locked. Thus isnt the Tinker a more powerful shaper than Jax/Iax?

Another thought, Kvothe kills Master Ash - THE POET of Denna's song. Making the poet killing and king Killer 2 seperate killings out of multiple that Kvothe did till the current time.

The current "KING", Kvothe depises much is Ambrose , and Kvothe is responsible for getting him to the throne, by killing the previous King who "another carackpot" was Maer. Why would he kill Maer, circumstances will tell, just a hunch at this point but the King Kvothe Kills MUST be someone having big impact on him not just Ambrose's father or someother guy.

We know that Ambrose is slowly creeping up the ladder to accession, who knows when Maer became King he is already next in line. At this point, Kvothe is manipulated by Brendon(Master Ash) through Denna to kill Maer, then when he realises he has killed Maer that is the betrayel he feels from Denna , forgoes his oath to not search for Denna's patron and finds THE POET and in the town square Kills "him" ( the one Chronicler talks about, in IMRE) in front of everyone. By that time Brendon is a well known Poet. The same time Brendon is a supper badass who knows "story book" magic.

Moreover, Killing Maer brings Kvothe up in the eyes of Amyr, making the saying of Cthaeh true that Maer was his lead to Amyr. That is when Kvothe fiends his death to escape Amyr's justice.

Another theory, Master Lorren is an agentto Chandrain, keeps all the " KNOWLEDGE " in check. whereas Puppet is there overseeing Amyr interests kept safe , he knows all the books and what they contain. Whereas Lorren checks all the books brought in at the current time.

[two_by_two]

Hello, just signed up.

Great findings guys, it was fun going through all the threads to catch up on all the discussions, and yet i do confess i have skimmed through most older threads so dont know if this has already been talked about or not. If so then please pass it off as Noob error. Just had to register :) , damn this waiting for approval is taking LOOOOOOOONG.

First i have a question, the story about Jax opening the house -> creating Fae , also says he (Jax / iAX) got those from the tinkers pack, so the tinker was perhaps not a Namer but a shaper himself, as he already had those things and the ability to creat the "house". Plus the Tinker knew Yillish knots of Magic , he tied the third up so not even Jax cuold open it, perhaps the third Box is what the Lockless box is, the knot is just roughed up and invisible to the eye due to the abuse Jax put it through yet could not open. This means the lockless box does not hold any form of sacrel or such but a price which the tinker kept locked. Thus isnt the Tinker a more powerful shaper than Jax/Iax?

Another thought, Kvothe kills Master Ash - THE POET of Denna's song. Making the poet killing and king Killer 2 seperate killings out of multiple that Kvothe did till the current time.

The current "KING", Kvothe depises much is Ambrose , and Kvothe is responsible for getting him to the throne, by killing the previous King who "another carackpot" was Maer. Why would he kill Maer, circumstances will tell, just a hunch at this point but the King Kvothe Kills MUST be someone having big impact on him not just Ambrose's father or someother guy.

We know that Ambrose is slowly creeping up the ladder to accession, who knows when Maer became King he is already next in line. At this point, Kvothe is manipulated by Brendon(Master Ash) through Denna to kill Maer, then when he realises he has killed Maer that is the betrayel he feels from Denna , forgoes his oath to not search for Denna's patron and finds THE POET and in the town square Kills "him" ( the one Chronicler talks about, in IMRE) in front of everyone. By that time Brendon is a well known Poet. The same time Brendon is a supper badass who knows "story book" magic.

Moreover, Killing Maer brings Kvothe up in the eyes of Amyr, making the saying of Cthaeh true that Maer was his lead to Amyr. That is when Kvothe fiends his death to escape Amyr's justice.

Another theory, Master Lorren is an agentto Chandrain, keeps all the " KNOWLEDGE " in check. whereas Puppet is there overseeing Amyr interests kept safe , he knows all the books and what they contain. Whereas Lorren checks all the books brought in at the current time.

After deciphering your grammar, I think you may have some potentially good points. The idea of Kvothe's killing of the Maer bringing him to the attention of the Amyr, thus fulfilling the Cthaeh's prophecy, is intriguing. As a truth-speaking oracle, obviously the Cthaeh must be masterful at twisting words to mean something other than you think. That would be a lovely way to accomplish that.

I had not noticed the similarities between the Lackless box and the tinker's bag in the Jax story. Well caught.

It should be noted, Master Ash is not necessarily a poet. Denna wrote the song herself.

[Sylvester]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but something jumped out at me in prior threads discussions on Haliax and the drawing of him:

"The other candle sat underneath his outstretched hand: it was grey with a black flame, and the space around it was smudged and darkened."

Is this the candle with no light needed to open the Lackless Door? Could the shaed, which is also shadow magic, do something similar to a flame?

I have to bring this up because nobody seems to have noticed this, while I find this very interesting. At first, like many, I've been tempted to associate the seven things needed with the Chandrian, but the other things don't seem to fit with the other Chandrian's signs: no blue flame, or cold/ice, or fire sword or broken tree...although the "word that is forsworn" might refer to their treason, but I doubt it.

IF however the candle without light is referring to Haliax, it could mean that the business of the Lackless door is connected with the so-elusive Chandrian's purpose. Would it be opening the door? Preventing the door from being opened? Considering the last line of the rhyme, "then comes that wich comes with sleeping", which could mean dreaming/relaxation?, the first one seems more likely.

So that would explain how Arliden, mere Ruh trouper, could have divined the Seven's purpose: he heard this rhyme, perhaps some others, and put them together.

I find this to actually make sense. Any loopholes?

[jumbles]

3. I think Dagon may be the Chandrian that makes animals go wild. I think this because in WMF chapter 64, Kvothe’s “deep feral instincts” told him to run when Dagon’s eyes touched him.

I just noticed something else that seems to support this. A little further along in the same chapter, the Maer refers to Dagon as his "mad dog on a short leash."

[Sylvester]

I just noticed something else that seems to support this. A little further along in the same chapter, the Maer refers to Dagon as his "mad dog on a short leash."

Well, personally I don't think this is evidence, it's more of a metaphor... Anyway, it doesn't even really support your theory, unless Chandrian are animals...Am I mistaken?

[jumbles]

Well, personally I don't think this is evidence, it's more of a metaphor... Anyway, it doesn't even really support your theory, unless Chandrian are animals...Am I mistaken?

I wasn't suggesting that was support because the Chandrian are animals, but because this particular Chandrian makes dogs go mad.

[Sci-2]

I have to bring this up because nobody seems to have noticed this, while I find this very interesting. At first, like many, I've been tempted to associate the seven things needed with the Chandrian, but the other things don't seem to fit with the other Chandrian's signs: no blue flame, or cold/ice, or fire sword or broken tree...although the "word that is forsworn" might refer to their treason, but I doubt it.

IF however the candle without light is referring to Haliax, it could mean that the business of the Lackless door is connected with the so-elusive Chandrian's purpose. Would it be opening the door? Preventing the door from being opened? Considering the last line of the rhyme, "then comes that wich comes with sleeping", which could mean dreaming/relaxation?, the first one seems more likely.

So that would explain how Arliden, mere Ruh trouper, could have divined the Seven's purpose: he heard this rhyme, perhaps some others, and put them together.

I find this to actually make sense. Any loopholes?

Heh, I was thinking perhaps too literally, that Haliax with the shadow hame or Kvothe with the shaed could make a candle cast darkness, but you might have the right of it being more metaphorical.

So much to tie up in the last book, which I suppose makes sense since it's the last third of the original novel.

[two_by_two]

I was rereading NOTW a few days ago and noticed something interesting, which I don't believe has been brought up before. After he is jumped by the men in the alleyway, Kvothe goes to the Quoyan Hayel, the House of the Wind. Here is the relevant quote:

NOTW Chapter 69: Wind or Women's Fancy

Once you noticed the wind's odd swirlings, it was hard to ignore.In fact, viewed from the roof like this, it was almost hypnotic. The same wayflowing water or a campfire's flames can catch your eye and hold it.

Watching it tonight, weary and wounded, it was rather relaxing.The more I watched it, the less chaotic it seemed. In fact, I began to sense agreater underlying pattern to the way the wind moved through the courtyard. Itonly looked chaotic because it was vastly, marvelously complex. What's more, itseemed to be always changing. It was a pattern made of changing patterns. Itwas—

"You're up studying awfully late," said a quiet voicefrom behind me.

It seems he is about to discover the name of the wind (he describes finding it by the Adem's tree in a similar way). However, Elodin interrupts him, breaking him out of his reverie.

Additionally, after Kvothe calls the name of the wind against Ambrose and falls into a catatonic state, Elodin comes to visit him.

NOTW Chapter 84: A Sudden Storm

Elodin closed his eyes briefly, peacefully. As if he were tryingto catch a faint strain of music wafting gently on a breeze. Unable to see hiseyes, I began to drift. I looked back down toward the broken lute in my hands,but before my gaze wandered too far he caught my chin again, tilting my faceup.

His eyes caught mine. The numbness faded, but the storm stillturned inside my head. Then Elodin's eyes changed. He stopped looking toward meand looked into me. That is the only way I can describe it. Helooked deep into me, not into my eyes, but through my eyes. His gaze went intome and settled solidly in my chest, as if he had both his hands inside me,feeling the shape of my lungs, the movement of my heart, the heat of my anger,the pattern of the storm that thundered inside me.

He leaned forward and his lips brushed my ear. I felt his breath.He spoke . . . and the storm stilled. I found a place to land.

I think Elodin finds Kvothe's true name here. The language also seems to imply that a true name is related to music ("a faint strain of music"), which is supported by Kvothe's calling of Felurian's name in WMF. Interestingly, he also experiences something similar to meeting Elodin's eyes here.

WMF Chapter 97: Blood and Bitter Rue

I met Felurian's eyes and the world grew slow and sluggish. I felt as if I had been thrust underwater, as if my breath had been pressed from my body. For that tiny moment I was stunned and numb as if I had been struck by lightning.

The moment passed and things began to move again. But now, looking into Felurian's twilight eyes, I understood her far beyond the bottoms of her feet. Now I knew her to the marrow of her bones. Her eyes were like four lines of music, clearly penned. My mind was filled with the sudden song of her. I drew a breath and sang it out in four hard notes.

A bit further in the chapter, when Kvothe's sleeping mind returns to slumber, he describes it like this:

But it was like trying to hold a handful of sand. If you have ever dreamed of flying, then come awake, dismayed to realize you had lost the trick of it, you have some inkling how I felt.

Obviously Elodin's "sleeping mind" is the subconscious - it's wild, it's beyond our control, it knows things we cannot comprehend. The sleeping mind is in control of naming. Dreams also stem from the subconscious (excepting dreams from outside powers, like Nina's about the vase). I would like to propose that naming is closely linked to dreaming.