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[Book Spoilers] EP109 Discussion


Ran

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I agree that book Shae != TV Shae, but for those that are calling for the actress's head, how important to the story do you really think it is that Shae be so naive and inexperienced as she is depicted in the books? Shae isn't so much an important character as she is an important presence. She's a device that gives Tyrion the weakness of thinking with the wrong head, of exposing his need to be loved and have that sexual connection and release. The details of her personality don't really matter at all to the overall story. People bitching about this are engaging in pedantic purism.

For me, it's more about chemistry than getting every last detail exactly like the book. The actress could fail to look and behave as I'd envisioned book Shae, yet have such instant chemistry with and allure for Tyrion that it wiped away all the differences. (For example, when I first saw the casting for Lysa, I thought oh that's not right, but she captured the essence of a fairly minor character while looking quite different from the book description). IMO, for Shae to work, we need to be able to be able to deceive ourselves with Tyrion. It would be theoretically possible to do this with a Shae who acted more courtesan and less naive camp follower, although it still wouldn't be a change I'd welcome. But what I'm not feeling here is any chemistry - any reason for Tyrion to put aside his distrust and get so totally caught up in his self-deception. After all, he's had many other whores, alluded to both in the show and the books. I don't feel like he's captivated by her presence, charmed by her, seeing in her the memory of being in love. I don't feel like she's drawing him in, pretending to be pleased by him, offering him an escape. And if I the viewer don't feel it, why should I believe that Tyrion does?

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(Apologizing in advance for posting twice in a row - didn't see this when I read my first post)

Shae's "innocence" makes her something Tyrion wants to protect. It also makes him trust her probably more than he should. Her seemingly simple nature also makes her betrayal that much more shocking and adds a somewhat tragic note to her eventual death at Tyrion's hands.

No one will be surprised when the mysterious accented courtesan version of Shae appears to testify against her former patron.

This is a fairly substantial mischaracterization both of Shae and of Tyrion IMO. Shae didn't really fool Tyrion with the whole "I'm innocent" act - in fact, it's easy to argue that it's as much her impertinence as it is her "innocence" that turns him on. Her innocent act doesn't fool Tyrion on an intellectual level so much as it makes him appreciate the effort and engage him on a level that bypasses his higher centers of thought.

Shae has a wide range of roles she plays, from the innocent maid act (that you seem to have latched onto) to times in Book 2 where she goes full-bore seductress, every bit as exotic and untouchable as she appears in her introduction in the show (which clearly seems to be the direction D&D have taken with her character). Saying that one of these acts and not any of the others is why Tyrion is attracted to her is dismissive to both characters.

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I agree that book Shae != TV Shae, but for those that are calling for the actress's head, how important to the story do you really think it is that Shae be so naive and inexperienced as she is depicted in the books? Shae isn't so much an important character as she is an important presence. She's a device that gives Tyrion the weakness of thinking with the wrong head, of exposing his need to be loved and have that sexual connection and release. The details of her personality don't really matter at all to the overall story. People bitching about this are engaging in pedantic purism.

You can call it what you want but the fact is that this Shae is not GRRM's shae. And the fact that a lot of people on here do not like the change is expected. I dont think it helped that they changed EVERYTHING about her. Shae is a fairly important character to Tyrions character development in the next couple books.

So i guess to me, I think its important that they portray Shae like she was in the books. So yeah, I hope they axe the actress.

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To me, it's even worse that he didn't say/attempt to say anything. The lie is really what makes this scene unbearable. I can't remember if he tried to speak in the book, but I wish they would have suggested to the assembled crowd that it wasn't the truth.

Yeah, it's the fact that he will go down in history as a traitor who tried to usurp his king's throne that saddens me the most. So unfair. :(

Must you post blatant insults

Oh ho.

disguised as arguments every chance you get? Seriously, your arguments are so rude without the advantages of being compelling, original, thought provoking, or even funny, it's almost a loss to read each and every one. Though the sheer simplemindedness of them combined with the utter self confidence is almost hilarious. Almost.

Hypocrite much? :lol:

The fact is, you ARE projecting motives on the author. And it's tiring and obnoxious. And you're blatantly wrong, but that's almost tangential.

Shae was presented in the books as a simple farm girl, about 19-20 years old, short, large small breasted and adorably cute, who was essentially a natural graduate role model for Lord Peter Baelish’s Graduate School of Advanced Prostitution. She SELLS her sexual interest and excitement so well to Tyrion that he comes to almost believe it. He knows better, but there is a part of him who wants the girlfriend experience to be real and falls for her. Shae appears to be so innocent and uncomplicated – and is such a good actress - that he buys it.

This Shae is, otoh, not a cute-as-a-button-and-too-good-to-be-a-camp-follower. Tyrion didn’t acquire a prostitute, a street walker, camp follower or even a mid-priced whore from King’s Landing. Instead, he seems to have acquired Shae the Courtesan.

That’s not the Shae that GRRM wrote – not even close. We’ll have to see how well D&D do with her and what direction that they decide to take her character and how they develop Tyrion’s relationship with her. Whatever the case, Shae the Courtesan is clearly a new direction for one of the longer running minor characters in the show. That Shae is not a scullery maid or a noble’s chamber maid. If she is a good enough actress to pull it off, that should have been ringing bells like a a five alarm fire to Tyrion.

Agreed, with the minor correction above. ;) As someone else said, it won't come as a surprise whatsoever when she testifies against him in S3, unless they soften her up a bit in the meantime. She was just an insolent little bitch. Shae showed some insolence sometimes, but it was more the witty kind of insolence that Tyrion appreciates, not the pouty, bitchy kind. Meh. Once again the writers think they can write better characters than GRRM... *shakes head*

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For me, it's more about chemistry than getting every last detail exactly like the book. The actress could fail to look and behave as I'd envisioned book Shae, yet have such instant chemistry with and allure for Tyrion that it wiped away all the differences. (For example, when I first saw the casting for Lysa, I thought oh that's not right, but she captured the essence of a fairly minor character while looking quite different from the book description). IMO, for Shae to work, we need to be able to be able to deceive ourselves with Tyrion. It would be theoretically possible to do this with a Shae who acted more courtesan and less naive camp follower, although it still wouldn't be a change I'd welcome. But what I'm not feeling here is any chemistry - any reason for Tyrion to put aside his distrust and get so totally caught up in his self-deception. After all, he's had many other whores, alluded to both in the show and the books. I don't feel like he's captivated by her presence, charmed by her, seeing in her the memory of being in love. I don't feel like she's drawing him in, pretending to be pleased by him, offering him an escape. And if I the viewer don't feel it, why should I believe that Tyrion does?

Read the first encounter between the two in the first book again. I don't have the books with me at the moment (on a business trip), but isn't the first thing she says to him along the lines of "My mother named me Shae. Men call me ... often." She's totally playing the exotic role we see in the series, truth be told. It's not until after she's been with him the once and is able to detect his vulnerability that she goes Full Innocent on him, probably calculating that that was the best way to manipulate him. So I think it'll be interesting to see where D&D go with this, and see if they don't transition her from the exotic courtesan that she's projecting in their initial meeting to the more scared and innocent girl that craves Tyrion's protection and care. More than anything in the books she is depicted as someone who adjusts the personality she projects based on what she believes Tyrion wants to hear, and does it very convincingly. Just because she hasn't done that in the, what, five minutes we've seen with her, doesn't mean all hope is lost that the character develops into someone that fits into your mold of someone that Tyrion could conceivably drop his guard around.

For the time being, her impertinence represents enough of a challenge to Tyrion that I have no trouble buying into his continued interest in her. His falling in love with her takes considerably more time.

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Long time lurker, first time poster. I joined specifically to post my displeasure with this episode. 1/10. I'm never watching this show again. They butcher two important and relatively small scale battles compared to the future battles in the series. If they're gonna do this to small scale battles then I might as well quit watching right now because I don't want to watch a terrible Blackwater episode. I might as well not set myself up for disapointment. I didn't even get to enjoy Ned's death because I was fuming about that the fact that I got screwed out of two major battles. I can't believe they pulled a Rome on me. This is even worse then when they had a seven episode build-up of a fight between Pompey and Caesar and then just show the aftermath. You just lost yourself a viewer HBO.

EDIT: Thanks for the useless time wasting Tyrion "guess what" scene.

Yes, I can see how entire HBO is panicking and calling their banne... erm emergency meetings over losing one viewer.

sulking over a TV show... grow up kid.

Totally agree with you mate. I didn't expect them to show Whispering Wood, thought they might show Jaime cutting down a few Northmen just to give him some air-time but the way they completely distorted the other battle was just awful. It made Tyrion look like an incompetent oaf, deprived of us a pretty exciting scene which I enjoyed in the books and like you said, this battle was small potatoes compared to what's ahead. Maybe budgetary constraints? Well if they'd just followed Tyrions contribution to the battle for a couple minutes showing the tribemen fighting it wouldn't have been that costly.

Also, if I hadn't read the series i'd have no idea what the significance of those two battles was. The friend I was watching with was clueless that Riverun's siege had just been lifted not to mention the predicament now facing Tywin's half of the Lannister army which is effectively cut-off.

IMO this particular episode simply didn't do the book any justice.

Just to add, Not only did my mate (who hasn't read the series) not know Riverun's siege had just been lifted, he didn't know it was besieged in the first place..... But at least he knows that Bronn's dad beat him and that Shae doesn't like it when Tyrion talks about her parents!

If you had not been a reader you would not understand the significance of 18,000 men annihilating 30,000? wow, dude... you're awesome.

And Tywin's predicament is to be discussed later. Unless your are a maniacal stalker type of a fan (as the fellow I quoted above) you wouldn't care for such minor details

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I get what you're saying, but my problem is more the chemistry between the two actors instead of the way they are supposed to be acting. Even if she totally changes the way that she acts around him, even from the beginning it would have made a lot more sense for there to be some attraction and fascination from him that I just didn't see. At all.

Also, I don't consider Shae's first book lines to be at all exotic, merely coy and teasing. Self-depreciating even.

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Does anyone beside me is curious about Eddard's last words. I mean he clearly says something, he mighty be just praying, but could'nt it be something important? After all, as far as i know the creators of the show have an idea of how all is going to end, right?

So anyone else is curious?

Could'nt it be some speel Varys thot him to live been one with the Force and show up again in the last three book as some seethrough soul that... Ok now i am kind of crazy, but you guys know what i mean. XD

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You can call it what you want but the fact is that this Shae is not GRRM's shae. And the fact that a lot of people on here do not like the change is expected. I dont think it helped that they changed EVERYTHING about her. Shae is a fairly important character to Tyrions character development in the next couple books.

So i guess to me, I think its important that they portray Shae like she was in the books. So yeah, I hope they axe the actress.

And like I said, this is nothing but pedantic purism. "It's not exactly 100% like the books, therefore it sucks." It's a tiresome and boring standpoint to argue from. The point of an ADAPTATION is to rework a piece of art into a different format, while conforming to the logistical differences between the two mediums, not to attempt to copy everything 100% and hope that it translates perfectly. It's not a bible.

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I don't feel cheated not seeing the fight in the whispering wood. It would have been awesome. but for two things, 1 they've already shown us how they are shying away from horse ridden battles. (the change to neds fight vs kingslayer. and 2 with the absence of the Karstarks it would have been impossible to add those elements back into play in season 2 if the scene was shot. + In the book it's told from Cat's POV and she's not there. but for the BLACKWATER it better be in detail. It's told from multiple POV and takes up three or four chapters. DAVOS, TYRION, SANSA so it has to be done right.

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Im not upset about getting 'screwed' out of two battles, because i couldnt care less about the effects and whatever gore so many people crave. This series is doing things like Showtimes The Tutors and playng the political maneuvering instead of battles, which is more interesting i think. BUT, what i am disappointed in is that they did a poor job explaining to the crowd Rob's tactics. I think the viewers needed another recap that Jaime has half the Lannister army outside of Riverrun, that the Twins were the key to getting there, and that the 2,000 man fight was a feign. I really expected another table top map scene where Rob shows his cunning... Sometimes you do have to be blunt in TV shows. However over bluntness like the 'stay low' comment was stupid.

Maybe its just my tastes, but Shae is smoking hot. Way hotter than the red haired floppy booby one and maybe rivals Dany's handmaid. Something about the dark features, accent, and eyes. Wow. I like her character in the show and Tyrion respects her, for her bold'ness and the fact that right away she knew Tysha was a whore explaining that no girl would have sex a few hours after almost being raped.

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My guess is Old Nan, I think the woman playing her died a few months ago. I could be wrong.

I'm still sticking with it being Marillion. He's the first one to get hit in the head with a rock when the hill tribes attack, and I haven't seen him around the Eyrie. Petyr's big scene could still be pulled off without him... Maybe...

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I have been reading this forum for a while, but never felt compelled to post. I have liked all the episodes thus far, some more than others. Going in I knew they would not be able to bring everything I liked in the books to the small screen. Watching the series with my wife and son, (neither have read the books) has made it even better. Last night they were worried about Drogo, asking me if he was going to die. My wife actually threatened me if I didn't tell he. I said, "sort of, but not right now." I wanted to tell them that Drogo dying was the least of their concerns. The look on their faces when Joffrey told Ser Illyn to bring him Ned's head was priceless. They were stunned to silence for the next 10 minutes.

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Felt the same way.

I actually thought the reason they didn't do it was time. Because truth be told it's totally do-able.

But, there was only about an hour and a half of the season left and lots to cover.

Is there really? Dragons, King in the North, Jon running away and coming back then the NW go across the wall, done, pretty much. Some stuff from early aCoK is possible, like a bit of Arya. A Bran PoV and an Sansa PoV. But it is not that full.

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